PTJ 2023 - Grape Arbor

This is a special message for Beau. Here are dimensions for the proposed Grape Arbor project.

The location is behind the Classroom, facing the parking lot/Arrakis. We've installed a few vertical poles back there, and Paul would be interested in seeing some perennial eatables here. I'm sure he's discussed this with you at greater length already, however if you have additional questions, feel free to post them here and I'll address them ASAP.

Very nice!  Thank you, Stephen.  Question for you - do we have some logs of varying size stockpiled that aren't spoken-for for the root cellar?  All good either way, just thinking and planning.

Let's start kicking around some ideas, folks!

Beau M. Davidson wrote:Question for you - do we have some logs of varying size stockpiled that aren't spoken-for for the root cellar?

We have a number of these set aside for various projects. However, there are some that are also waiting in the wings at various places round the Lab we can bring back to Basecamp for the purpose.

Finally: we were out there felling and peeling logs today, and conditions still seem ripe. So if we fell additional trees this coming week, they ought to be available and accessible for this and/or other projects, regardless. Until very recently, June's been mild this year.

I mentioned to Dez that I can send red and green grape plants.

So this was originally spec'd to be a roundwood trellis, but . . .

The chief motivating factor is to mitigate the trip-wire hazard of the guy-lines for these new shade cloths.

So, letting that guide the way, I propose simplifying this aspect of the site plan to riff off of the guy-lines as a design element, rather than trying to obscure them or simply ignore them.

Thus, my crappy drawings of a stainless stell rope grape trellis, ascending from a low stacked-stone raised bed.


Part two of this site development plan will be a roundwood shad wall with large passage, that may serve a trellis for shade vines sunch as (climate-dependant, research pending) hardy kiwi, passionfruit, and/or hops.

Idea for the shade wall / trellis for passionfruit / hardy kiwi / hops.  If client wishes, this may also be planted in grapes.

I could send some rooted grape vines 6+ feet in length this fall which would get them up where they would be more immune to deer browse.  Just a twine to guide the vine where it sprouts across to the other wire is enough until it fastens itself to the other wire then it will be self supporting.
I would recommend for now digging in some compost at the base of the cables and planting scarlet runner beans,  Theses are verry aggressive and quick growing and will improve the soil for future planting.
I will work at editing the video I just took of how these grapes are trellised here so that the deer help with the pruning and how much shade they make over the gate.

New arbor design, as spec'd by Paul.  A big beefy roundwood timberframe arbor with corner braces connecting the two posts, and rock borders around the base of each post with hugelish beds in them for the grapes to grow from.

It will be at a height of about 8 feet.  

I'm thinking of using through-tenons to affix the beam to the posts.  

Yet, I am a bit concerned about premature aging in the elements, as well as wear and tear due to movement, as the posts will be attached to giant sails, in effect.

So I did a bit of research about stress points in through-tenons.

These images reflect more Chinese-style joinery which does not typically employ angle braces as we intend to do.  

I have a bit of a "feeling" about angle braces.  They are discussed elsewhere on permies, and I don't feel the need to do so here.  They are spec'd on this project, so we're going to use them, embracing the rigidity that ensues, and mitigate structural stresses as best we may

Sources: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335314629_The_Influence_of_the_Damage_of_Mortise-Tenon_Joint_on_the_Cyclic_Performance_of_the_Traditional_Chinese_Timber_Frame

Hans Quistorff wrote:I could send some rooted grape vines 6+ feet in length this fall which would get them up where they would be more immune to deer browse.  Just a twine to guide the vine where it sprouts across to the other wire is enough until it fastens itself to the other wire then it will be self supporting.
I would recommend for now digging in some compost at the base of the cables and planting scarlet runner beans,  Theses are verry aggressive and quick growing and will improve the soil for future planting.
I will work at editing the video I just took of how these grapes are trellised here so that the deer help with the pruning and how much shade they make over the gate.

This is the video first two minutes excerpt is specific to the grapes and the deer pruning.  I could send some of these that rooted to far from the arbor which would get them up out of deer browsing height.

I was just looking at your original post about the grapes earlier today, Hans. We've not had an opportunity to plant those scarlet runners, or to build up the soil in the grape arbor spots. We've just done a lot more watering in the area.

I'd hate for you to send along those grapes and they're not coming to a friendly growing spot. I'll check in with Paul and see if we can pick up some materials to make this possible prior to the end of the year.

Thanks for this generous offer...!

Stephen B. Thomas wrote:I was just looking at your original post about the grapes earlier today, Hans. We've not had an opportunity to plant those scarlet runners, or to build up the soil in the grape arbor spots. We've just done a lot more watering in the area.
I'd hate for you to send along those grapes and they're not coming to a friendly growing spot. I'll check in with Paul and see if we can pick up some materials to make this possible prior to the end of the year.
Thanks for this generous offer...!

Correct it needs to be done in the rainy season and before the freezing season.   Ideally the roots buried in deed rich soil and the vines coiled on top with deep mulch to protect the buds the first winter as it will grow roots during the winter.  Eventually the roots will reach deep water and it will be drought resistant.

The final product had a lot of changes to the joinery work.  Beau made a slide-down dovetail on both ends





You can see a glimpse of the final product here (about 40 seconds in)