Liberator stove installed in our home and working!

I was at a natural building course (at https://thedeaneryproject.com/) in Nova Scotia last summer just before moving to the property we purchased in Northern Maine. I got to see a rocket mass heater and fell in love. I wanted one. The old farmhouse we purchased did not have a heat source that didn't require electricity. I didn't feel up to the challenge of building a rocket stove or mass heater before winter arrived so we decided to purchase a Liberator rocket heater.  

https://rocketheater.com/

We were fortunate to connect with a general contractor here who did lots of work on the house over the summer. He wasn't available to install the Liberator for us until last week. Now it is set up and working!

It's lovely to be sitting here getting toasty warm and hearing the roar of the stove. There have been a couple of issues, though, and I'm wondering if anyone here has feedback or any comments about the stove and how it was installed.

Our plan is to build a mass for the stove in the future. But we are not planning to live in this house for the rest of our lives. What we really want is to build several off-grid cabins on our property and have a small community here. We might take the stove with us when we move to a little off-grid cabin and build a mass for it then.

I've attached some photos and here is a link to a video of the stove and it's roar.

https://youtube.com/shorts/gYVaS_0RM1E?si=YgQ9N8wUQTfConLu

Here are the two issues.

1. Our contractor would have needed to rent a lift to get on the roof to install the chimney higher than 12 feet. So far the stove has been lit five times, and one of those times the draft wasn't strong enough. However, that time I was lighting it for the first time and I was torching the pellets in the pellet chamber and not the ones that had fallen to the bottom of the burn chamber. Our contractor lit the fallen pellets first and then put the torch on the pellets still in the grill. I don't know if that would have a difference, but that day smoke came through the fresh air intake holes. Not good. I called Liberator and they said the chimney needed to be higher. So far it's been really cold here since that day and the draft has been fine. I'm hoping that day the draft wasn't strong enough was a fluke and the 12 foot chimney will be high enough but I'm not sure. It will take renting a lift for $1,000 and extra materials for bracing the chimney to get it at 16 feet or higher.

2. We have a wired smoke alarm in our kitchen. It gets triggered by the heater. I did create a fire in the heater this fall before it was installed to burn off the fumes from the paint. I let that fire burn outside for four hours as was recommended in the manual. I'm thinking the wired smoke alarm is sensing remnant fumes from the paint on the stove. We have other smoke detectors and carbon monoxide sensors that don't go off when the stove is burning. We have to turn off the electricity to that smoke alarm for it to stop the sound. Obviously, this causes other problems. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to remove that alarm since it's wired.

Anyway, I'm very excited to have this rocket heater in the house and working. It gives wonderful heat and makes me feel safer in the extreme cold here in Northern Maine.

If the chimney went straight up instead of having that horizontal section I am sure it would draw a lot better,
Is the outdoor section insulated?

Jennifer Damashek wrote:I was at a natural building course (at https://thedeaneryproject.com/) in Nova Scotia last summer just before moving to the property we purchased in Northern Maine. I got to see a rocket mass heater and fell in love. I wanted one. The old farmhouse we purchased did not have a heat source that didn't require electricity. I didn't feel up to the challenge of building a rocket stove or mass heater before winter arrived so we decided to purchase a Liberator rocket heater.  

https://rocketheater.com/

We were fortunate to connect with a general contractor here who did lots of work on the house over the summer. He wasn't available to install the Liberator for us until last week. Now it is set up and working!

It's lovely to be sitting here getting toasty warm and hearing the roar of the stove. There have been a couple of issues, though, and I'm wondering if anyone here has feedback or any comments about the stove and how it was installed.

Our plan is to build a mass for the stove in the future. But we are not planning to live in this house for the rest of our lives. What we really want is to build several off-grid cabins on our property and have a small community here. We might take the stove with us when we move to a little off-grid cabin and build a mass for it then.

I've attached some photos and here is a link to a video of the stove and it's roar.

https://youtube.com/shorts/gYVaS_0RM1E?si=YgQ9N8wUQTfConLu

Here are the two issues.

1. Our contractor would have needed to rent a lift to get on the roof to install the chimney higher than 12 feet. So far the stove has been lit five times, and one of those times the draft wasn't strong enough. However, that time I was lighting it for the first time and I was torching the pellets in the pellet chamber and not the ones that had fallen to the bottom of the burn chamber. Our contractor lit the fallen pellets first and then put the torch on the pellets still in the grill. I don't know if that would have a difference, but that day smoke came through the fresh air intake holes. Not good. I called Liberator and they said the chimney needed to be higher. So far it's been really cold here since that day and the draft has been fine. I'm hoping that day the draft wasn't strong enough was a fluke and the 12 foot chimney will be high enough but I'm not sure. It will take renting a lift for $1,000 and extra materials for bracing the chimney to get it at 16 feet or higher.
There are tuff days for sure on draft, but you want to limit those days to only a very few and have them only caused by a freak of nature.
The Stove company would have it in their best interest, to tell you exactly the best way to light the stove.  If it burns really "rocket hot" hopefully the warranty on metal parts is good.
Before you stop at the thought of the lift rental cost being $1000, here in the Midwest, lifts that could do the job, would rent for $250 for 1/2day and I personally have a 64' lift, that cost $350 with me included doing the work, so am thinking they are out there and hopefully in your area, This is a tow behind unit that any 1/2 ton pickup could pull, looks like you have room for such.

2. We have a wired smoke alarm in our kitchen. It gets triggered by the heater. I did create a fire in the heater this fall before it was installed to burn off the fumes from the paint. I let that fire burn outside for four hours as was recommended in the manual. I'm thinking the wired smoke alarm is sensing remnant fumes from the paint on the stove. We have other smoke detectors and carbon monoxide sensors that don't go off when the stove is burning. We have to turn off the electricity to that smoke alarm for it to stop the sound. Obviously, this causes other problems. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to remove that alarm since it's wired.
I might be wrong, but I thought all fire alarms are backed up by battery, Turning off the electricity should NOT stop the alarm from working. Are there other problems with this alarm?

Anyway, I'm very excited to have this rocket heater in the house and working. It gives wonderful heat and makes me feel safer in the extreme cold here in Northern Maine.

I wrote in bold above a few ideas, , but also wanted to add to your thoughts of adding Mass to the stove, Liberty should have some suggestions or feedback from their customers.  But please consider, depending on your added mass and how  effective it could  be at storing heat, Your in soap stone country, and that is certainly hard to beat, if you can find for the right price.  I would caution though, that if exhaust is to cool, it won't have enough energy to rise quickly for draft.  I am not sure how your stove works on the internal riser, but most non electric stove have to have heat energy to cause gasses to rise fast enough to prevent stalls in the flue .

It could very well have been how you lit it the time it smoked.

If your detector keeps going off when you test it after a while, there might be other issues that need addressing.  The off-gassing, if there is any, shouldn't last long.

The fact that you have three 90 degree bends AND a chimney shorter than your peak can be problems with draft.

Adding mass to the thing will draw heat and that will potentially cause further draft problems as your exhaust will be cooler.  

Fox James wrote:If the chimney went straight up instead of having that horizontal section I am sure it would draw a lot better,
Is the outdoor section insulated?

Yes, the outdoor section is insulated. The piping outside is double insulated Class A chimney piping.

Scott Weinberg wrote:There are tuff days for sure on draft, but you want to limit those days to only a very few and have them only caused by a freak of nature.
The Stove company would have it in their best interest, to tell you exactly the best way to light the stove.  If it burns really "rocket hot" hopefully the warranty on metal parts is good.
Before you stop at the thought of the lift rental cost being $1000, here in the Midwest, lifts that could do the job, would rent for $250 for 1/2day and I personally have a 64' lift, that cost $350 with me included doing the work, so am thinking they are out there and hopefully in your area, This is a tow behind unit that any 1/2 ton pickup could pull, looks like you have room for such.

I might be wrong, but I thought all fire alarms are backed up by battery, Turning off the electricity should NOT stop the alarm from working. Are there other problems with this alarm?

I wrote in bold above a few ideas, , but also wanted to add to your thoughts of adding Mass to the stove, Liberty should have some suggestions or feedback from their customers.  But please consider, depending on your added mass and how  effective it could  be at storing heat, Your in soap stone country, and that is certainly hard to beat, if you can find for the right price.  I would caution though, that if exhaust is to cool, it won't have enough energy to rise quickly for draft.  I am not sure how your stove works on the internal riser, but most non electric stove have to have heat energy to cause gasses to rise fast enough to prevent stalls in the flue .

Thank you for your comments! I think it would be best if we rented a lift and added at least four more feet to the chimney and I will see if I can find a lift for a better price. Our contractor is better connected than me in our area, though, and that's what he could find. We are in a very rural area with few people around.

The alarm says on it that it will not work if disconnected from electricity. However, I purchased a better alarm that can be hooked up, I believe, and it also detects CO.

Roberto pokachinni wrote:It could very well have been how you lit it the time it smoked.

If your detector keeps going off when you test it after a while, there might be other issues that need addressing.  The off-gassing, if there is any, shouldn't last long.

The fact that you have three 90 degree bends AND a chimney shorter than your peak can be problems with draft.

Adding mass to the thing will draw heat and that will potentially cause further draft problems as your exhaust will be cooler.  

Thank you for your comments, Roberto. I'm thinking we will add more height to the chimney. I purchased a new alarm and hopefully this will resolve the problem.

From reading the manual, it looks to me like the way the stove was installed with the two bends is what is instructed. I can double check with Liberator about this, though.

You might be able to rent some scaffolding for less than a lift would cost.

I am not so sure you can just add on sections without bracing from a solid source, at least you could not where I live!

If the same applies to you, then the section would have to follow the roof at an angle or be supported by guy wires.
If it was at all possible, the chimney should go straight up and out of the roof.

Jeremy VanGelder wrote:You might be able to rent some scaffolding for less than a lift would cost.

Thank you for that suggestion!

Fox James wrote:I am not so sure you can just add on sections without bracing from a solid source, at least you could not where I live!

If the same applies to you, then the section would have to follow the roof at an angle or be supported by guy wires.
If it was at all possible, the chimney should go straight up and out of the roof.

Yes, this was another reason why our contractor left the chimney at 12 feet for now. We're not sure how best to brace it and he needs to do some research. Advice welcome! And yeah, I don't remember ever seeing a chimney following the roof at an angle. According to the Liberator manual, the piping should not go through an attic, which is what it would have done if it were to go straight up and through the roof.

Hi Jennifer,
I definitely second and third the comments about the chimney height. I have quoted the relevant section below, but here is a link to a document about installing wood stoves in Maine. https://www.maine.gov/dps/fmo/sites/maine.gov.dps.fmo/files/inline-files/standardsfor_solidfuel_stoves.pdf

chimneys shall extend not less than 2 feet (610 mm) higher than any portion of a building within 10 feet (3048 mm), but shall be not less than 3 feet (914 mm) above the highest point where the chimney passes through the roof.

Also, I would check with liberator about the attic. If the chimney is insulated, I can't imagine its any worse than going outside as far as temperature is concerned. They might recommend that for a specific situation that you could mitigate.

Lastly, perhaps you could look at the pebble style RMH. This would make the mass moveable down the road.

PS - I'm jealous of you having a Liberator :)

I've been considering it, for the same reason. To have a good efficient means of heat that doesn't require electricity.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Hi Jennifer,
I definitely second and third the comments about the chimney height. I have quoted the relevant section below, but here is a link to a document about installing wood stoves in Maine. https://www.maine.gov/dps/fmo/sites/maine.gov.dps.fmo/files/inline-files/standardsfor_solidfuel_stoves.pdf

chimneys shall extend not less than 2 feet (610 mm) higher than any portion of a building within 10 feet (3048 mm), but shall be not less than 3 feet (914 mm) above the highest point where the chimney passes through the roof.

Also, I would check with liberator about the attic. If the chimney is insulated, I can't imagine its any worse than going outside as far as temperature is concerned. They might recommend that for a specific situation that you could mitigate.

Lastly, perhaps you could look at the pebble style RMH. This would make the mass moveable down the road.

Thank you for your comments, Matt.

Regarding the chimney going straight up and through the attic/roof, I went back to the manual and this is what it says:

The chimney connector shall not pass through an attic, roof space, floor, wall ceiling, or any
other similar concealed space. Where passage through a wall or partition of combustible is
desired, the installation must conform with NFPA 211.

Now that I have reread it, I'm not completely sure if this means the stove pipe or chimney can't go straight up and through the roof. A lot of the manual is quite hard for me to understand. I can call Liberator and ask them, though.

Thank you for the Maine code related to chimney height for wood stoves. That's almost exactly what it says in the Liberator manual as well, so we do need to get the chimney higher to meet code even though the draft actually seems to work really well with the chimney the way it is. Is the code for the height due to the chance of fire caused by hot embers coming from the chimney? Is that risk reduced with a rocket stove compared to a typical wood stove, I wonder?

Matt McSpadden wrote:PS - I'm jealous of you having a Liberator :)

I've been considering it, for the same reason. To have a good efficient means of heat that doesn't require electricity.

Yes, and it's worth it to me to have the peace of mind to know if the power goes out in a storm we will have heat...even though I'm only running it for an hour or so a day right now since I'm nervous with the chimney height, plus just getting used to having a truly roaring fire in the house...

Is the code for the height due to the chance of fire caused by hot embers coming from the chimney? Is that risk reduced with a rocket stove compared to a typical wood stove, I wonder?

While a properly run rocket mass heater will have significantly cooler exhaust, I'm not sure about a rocket stove.

I think the reason is more about draft. If the chimney doesn't draft, you are more likely to get smoke/sparks in the house. But don't quote me on the reason why. Some of the codes make no sense :)

Jennifer Damashek wrote:....... the chimney needed to be higher. So far it's been really cold here since that day and the draft has been fine. I'm hoping that day the draft wasn't strong enough was a fluke and the 12 foot chimney will be high enough but I'm not sure. It will take renting a lift for $1,000 and extra materials for bracing the chimney to get it at 16 feet or higher.

Re:  Bracing....  Please see photo below.  This chimney arrangement has been in place for around 30 years in a windy region and even survived the re-roofing from asphalt shingles to metal sheeting.  The bracing has been key to be able to support the weight and lateral wind strain on the chimney.  Good luck!

John Weiland wrote:
Re:  Bracing....  Please see photo below.  This chimney arrangement has been in place for around 30 years in a windy region and even survived the re-roofing from asphalt shingles to metal sheeting.  The bracing has been key to be able to support the weight and lateral wind strain on the chimney.  Good luck!

Thank you John, that is so helpful!

I found this thread doing research for my own hopes of someday having a Rocket Stove Mass heater.  I've seen a lot of DIY youtube videos where it doesn't seem like much care has been put in to the chimney.  I could be wrong, but more than a few appeared to just stick outside a wall or something, maybe some of those were exterior installs to begin with.

I hate to be a "rule follower" amongst the pioneering homesteaders Permies inspires, but we already live in a high risk wildfire area and I need to be honest with myself about the financial reality for my family should something bad happen and insurance denied a claim.  But that's when I discovered the Liberator, a huge plus being UI listed (I assume).

So it sounds the chimney has more to do with the draft than a fire issue?  Is there any way to get around this?  The location I have in mind is in the walk out basement which would be a costly chimney to install on a 2-story house.
 
We installed a Green Mountain 60 wood stove just two years ago and I wish I knew about the liberator then.  I would have wanted to incorporate a thermal mass though which may have required an engineer because of the weight.  The weight of the mass would have been along the one of two joists because of the location (instead of going across the joists the other direction).  I'm not sure if that's a no-no.  Otherwise I guess I could sell my GM60?  (We'd still like something for the basement though)

S. Marshall wrote:So it sounds the chimney has more to do with the draft than a fire issue?  Is there any way to get around this?  The location I have in mind is in the walk out basement which would be a costly chimney to install on a 2-story house.  

Yes, it's the draft that is the problem with our stove. It's not safe the way it is right now because of backdrafting.

I have been in contact with the people at Liberator, who have been extremely helpful. They recommended a Vacu-stack chimney cap and adding at least 4 feet more of chimney piping.

Here is the Vacu-stack: https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/products/vacu-stack-non-air-cooled-chimney-cap

They also said it probably would have been better to have put the piping straight up through the roof, not on the side of the house like it is now. We're keeping it the way it is because it would be a big deal to change it at this point.

I suggest calling the people at Liberator and talking to them about your situation.

Jennifer Damashek wrote:......
I have been in contact with the people at Liberator, who have been extremely helpful. They recommended a Vacu-stack chimney cap and adding at least 4 feet more of chimney piping.

Here is the Vacu-stack: https://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/products/vacu-stack-non-air-cooled-chimney-cap

Yes....another thumbs up from this corner for the Vacu-stack!    For several years we struggled with wind-induced back-drafts even with the chimney height shown in my post above.  When contractors installed the new metal roof, I quickly purchased a Vacu-stack and had them install it as long as they were waaaaaayy up there on the roof.  If you zoom in on that photo, you can also barely see some chicken-wire I had to wrap around the Vacu-stack cap as the vents in the cap are still large enough to allow sparrows and other small and not-forward-thinking birds into that chimney.  That cap has worked quite well for our north winds.

Hi Jen

Hope you are still reading the posts.

Rocket stoves by there design influence the exhaust gases that allows the heat to be radiated into the room quickly before exiting the flue. This cools the exhaust gasses and thus the draw effect.  It is one of the reasons rocket stoves fail.  The length of the vertical stove stovepipe may be too short, and I my opinion should if it exited out of the building closer to the ceiling. This would help with the draw, when the mass is installed that also will help with the draw.  There will code requirements in your area for how close you can go but there would be other options as well to meet the code. i.e. a vented fire separation space.   The damper can also be used to control the draft if it is closed a little that will increase the flow pressure.  Play with that a little as well.

The smoke detector most likely is an ionized smoke detector these measure small particles and thus the alarms.  A photoelectric smoke detector would be better for this area as they detect smoke particles. There are one that are battery operated and/or power by the electrical system.  The burning off of the metals will pass if not already.

Cheers