Insuring a house with a rocket mass heater

HELP!

Is there anyone out there with both a ROCKET MASS HEATER and HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE?

I'm looking for an insurance company that will insure my place with the RMH.

thanks!

Chalky Patrone : Welcome to Permies.com, and a big Welcome to The Permies Rocket Stove / Rocket Mass Heater Forum Tread ! With over 18,000 Fellow members you
will always be able to find a diverse group of new friends who want to talk about what you want to talk about ! You will long remember your first few posts/ exchanges
here at permies !

Because of the weight issues you may be able to sneak your Rocket Mass Heater in as a Masonry Heater, if the local building code people approve it as a masonry heater
your bank (The people that hold your note !) will be able to help you find insurance !

Have you been to cobcottage.com for your PDF Copy $15.oo of Evans' and Jackson's Great book 'Rocket Mass Heaters ' there is STILL no other book in any language that
contains more Rocket Stove, Pocket Rocket, and Rocket Mass Heater family information ! ( and I don't make a dime )

No one is working harder to find the necessary connections to make it easier to have a R.M.H. and home owners insurance than Ernie Wisner ! Ernie and Erica are Both
Moderators for this Forum !

I would suggest that as he is a busy man, you should go to Ernieanderica.info , and on the left hand side of the page click on/go to 'Consulting and Booking Events'
then on your new page also on the left Side click on/go to 'site planning' - There you will find a complete D.I.Y.-R.M.H. Builders guide, after you have completed filling out
the guide- and it is the most complete guide to a D.I.Y. project that I have ever seen, Then you should have enough information to decide if you want a Rocket Mass Heater
in your future enough to want to contact Ernie Wisner For Help ! I am Looking forward to seeing more of your posts, and I hope you found this Helpful! For the Good of the
Craft !

As always your comments and questions are solicited and Welcome ! Think like Fire, Flow like a Gas, Don,t be the Marshmallow PYRO - Logically BIG AL !

Allen, thanks for the reply! Let me clarify a bit. The Rocket Mass Heater has already been built. I know Erica and Ernie because they supervised its construction during a workshop, which I hosted last fall. They have been an amazing resource and very generous with their wisdom before, during and after we built this thing.

At this point, all I'm looking for is a way to insure the house.

Anyone?

To start off, I don't have an RMH or homeowners insurance (my home was deemed too high risk).

Since you haven't gotten the info you're looking for yet, here's a link with a little more info as well as a bump for your thread:

https://permies.com/t/11991/wood-burning-stoves/rocket-heaters-meeting-code

I would like to know this answer too as I am having a hard time finding any insurance or even an agent that will return my calls after I explain to them what is happening. So frustrating!! We are building a small 900 square foot cabin in the woods on 30 acres, all natural bush and waterfront and going off grid. Problem now is insurance. We live in Ontario Canada. Help, anyone!!

Hi Kimberley,  sorry this is a over a year late.
I too am in Ontario.  I thought long and hard about getting an RMH.  I currently heat with a wood stove. Its hard to find an insurer who will touch houses whose sole source of heat is wood stove.  I called my insurer and was told they would not consider insuring my house with RMH. That to me was all I needed to know. I cant afford to not have house insurance.  If I had a house fire , caused by electrical or cooking totally unrelated to RMH my house insurance would be invalidated and I would loose everything.  NO THANKS!

You live in 30 acres of bush?? I have almost the same at my place.  So the question you have to ask yourself is why build an RMH to spare firewood when you have an abundance. You can easily heat you house sustainably with a woodstove with wood from your bush. Hire a forester to mark unacceptable growing stock in your bush and keep your house warm by improving the quality of timber in your forest would be my advice.

Reasons to go through the hassle of insuring a house with RMH instead of just burning abundant wood in a conventional wood stove:

The wood may be local and free, but it still takes labor and gasoline to cut and handle the wood. Having only a quarter or less of the wood to process can be a significant amount of time freed up every year.

You only have a fire burning while you are attending to it; no overnight fires or stove burning while you are away from the house to keep it warm.

Potentially greater comfort, with softer, even heat from the mass instead of high heat while the stove is burning and cold drafts when it is not.

No risk of creosote and chimney fires from turning a stove down to burn overnight or in mild weather. (Yes, new high efficiency stoves can burn the creosote at low fire rates, but they are very expensive and may need regular maintenance to keep their qualities.)

Less wood burned means less air pollution. This may seem irrelevant if you live out in the sticks, but it is all pollution, and in populated areas, it may lead to noticeably poorer air quality and municipalities banning wood stoves.

You have to own your own home. You have to be wicked and selfish. you cant be part of the collectivism of the establishment.

You have to self insure it appears. People any more that self insure with food supplies and water wells or solar panels especially RMH etc etc. These groups of radicals are being shut down. You need to really rethink the idea of a RMH. Its a very wicked and un social idea that goes against the collectivists idea that every one pulls together. Insurance systems home and health, water supplies , power supplies, sewer systems.
As you embark on this mental journey of going against the grain and into the darkness of freedom. The loneliness and isolationists place were people are self reliant and self serving you cross a line. You take from those that have planned a life of living off your hard work and flip it upside down.
HOW WILL YOU FEEL IF THEY HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND THEY DON'T HAVE YOU TO FALL BACK ON.

Imagine you start saving money on energy to heat your home. Then you take that money and pay off your mortgage. How will the bankers survive when you'll be removing there ability to fractional loan more money that they dont have and didn't exist with out you because you no longer need to borrow that fiat currency (debt) from them that didn't exist in the first place.

Next you'll want to take this real wealth your creating and buy more land and start growing your own food. This will destabilize the world let alone foreign markets that get IMF funding to grow CONAG GMO seeds. You could being put peoples lively hoods at risk every where like the Round Up people. if you grow your own food they wont have anything to spray there amazing product on.

Maybe next you have moved to your new farm and its now off city water or sewer. This leads to all kinds of issues. Your first putting people out of work and destroying the economy by not paying the government for the service you clearly need. You do realize that there is no way a well of water is safe to drink with out a fluoride or chlorination facility. Sewer poured directly in a tank creates bacteria! there bad ask your doctor or the management of the sewer plant. Technically your really trying to create a biological weapon against your neighbors. You may be a terrorist at this point its a very grey area.

Imagine you come up with a crazy idea to use the water flow (river or stream) on your land to create energy for a saw mill or to grind seeds for flour. worse you get the idea you may want to create electricity on your own. Its like you want to destroy the world at this point. Massive unemployment because power workers wont have jobs.

Bringing disease to the land through bacteria your wanting to store right next to your home were your family is sleeping. What about the children.

Virtually shutting down retirement pensions by not buying insurance that is invested in the markets. If you were to work for yourself on your own land you would be saying you want old people to go hungry and live on the streets as you would not be paying into the social system itself. Your like a monster at this point! Thank gosh we have congress here with lobbyist to shut this idea down and oppress this evil way of thinking.

This idea of RMH leads to untold disastrous consequences. This why you have to have to be regulated in your home and stopped from thinking or seeing you could improve a system on your own. There is no room for selfish people in this amazing social system. Like fiat currency and currency legal tender laws if you choose to try and destroy us with your mad idea they will create mandatory insurance you must pay or go to jail. You must not be allowed freedom to better your self. Next they'll do it to health insurance.

So the answer is no there is not home owners insurance that lets you be a radical extremist. This whole site is a breeding ground of sinister thoughts and some very frank swearing that makes me want to go to my safe spot and curl up in the fetal position in front of my smart phone running my RMH app. and order a meal from Amazon fresh.

I had not even thought about insurance. Had only thought about possibly getting dinged for not having pulled a permit for it, when trying to sell the house, probably in the sorta near future. I figured if there were to be an issue with it, we would simply remove it and put the freestanding gas heater back on that hearth. Probably a lot more complicated than it sounds, though, right?

when trying to sell the house, probably in the sorta near future. I figured if there were to be an issue with it, we would simply remove it and put the freestanding gas heater back on that hearth. Probably a lot more complicated than it sounds, though, right?

 Well, if you knew what you were doing when you removed it... you probably didn't damage it.  Just make sure it works properly when you put it back.  You might very well be able to use your RMH parts again at your new place, if you disassemble it carefully.  

Welcome to Permies, Ann Duncan.  

I bet a nice red brick all square RMH  that looks like it was professionally installed at construction with proper chimney would never be questioned. Ive never heard of a certified brick fire place? Ive also never had a house inspected before by an insurance company ever. Once i had a agent take pictures of the outside 30 years ago. I just changed company's this summer and same deal. they just want to get paid. They no there is a fire heat source. I wonder what the policy says? probably if the unit is lit or burning they dont cover it. I'll have to pull the policy out.

They want the money so bad the agent will bend over backwards to make the sell. use that leverage. Just dont say you built a box in your house yourself to burn wood at 2000f. Build a bell or have one made one that looks like a big black box just like a air tight stove. Weld some fancy knobs on it. Make it fit the part. Have a logo cut out that says Alaska fire place or red wood fire place and install it on your bell like its manufactured. something they wont google and see it isn't that model. make your own model name or brand make it look old.  Must have gone out of business years ago?

If they ask just say fire place for there form. it is to a layman its a open fire place that's just a little different but they just want to go home. it looks like its been there for years it must be fine. dont say primary heat. Its not your primary heat its what you use when your not using electric. How much more honest can you get. Asking every one for permission on these projects seems to be a dead end. Try and fit in and play along to what they want to hear.

I'm not saying lie to any one. I'm sure done correctly most insurance company's wont look twice. if your house burns down the fire Marshall will say the old brick fire place failed. the one you had when you got the insurance policy. You have family pictures of that holiday showing it was there before the new insurance policy or they actually do when they approved it on there walk through.  plead the 5th and if its a issue try another company.  i just did a policy and they did it all over the phone they have no idea what i have.  let them draw there own conclusion. on houses new enough to have records of a stove and manufacturer your probably out of luck. My house was built in the 60's or 70's and it was always heated with wood.

On that same note if you have a very nice house having a nice brick fire stove of some type would also not be out of line in a visual inspection. Agents are like used car salesman. they just want to get paid and move on to the next client. I dont think this is nearly the issue most people think unless you plan on it looking like a piece of art you built. The walker stove would go right through a house inspection that i just watched in a video on here. Its a reasonable looking item that looks like a professional built it. At least with my company since they didn't even care what kind of stove i had.

If you want to hide the truth from your insurance company and risk having your claim denied when you need it most go right ahead. I know I cant afford that so I am upfront with my insurer with the exact model of stove I have, that it is inspected by a WETT certified inspector.  I sleep well at night  and dont have to worry.  Forests are like gardens they need to be weeded of poor formed trees, and inferior species. Thats what I heat my house with. With careful selection of trees to harvest I intend to leave my previously abused bush in better shape then when I found it more closely resembling an old growth forest. Although admittedly it will take generations of careful management for it to actually be an old growth forest, but what I will do in my lifetime will be a start.

Yes cutting firewood is work but quite frankly most of us in the 21st century could do with a little more physical effort in our lives. My wood stove is a high efficiency unit that burns clean.

I might build an RMHs in the future  to heat my workshop and/or greenhouse which I can live with loosing to a fire. But not in my house.

I got here by asking the EXACT question the OP asked (OVER FOUR YEARS AGO).

Thumbs up to Jeff Marchand.  I agree completely.  I love the concept but not willing to risk losing my home and all its contents that took me a lifetime to accumulate.

Jeff Darrington I love your passion and believe it is in good spirit but you sound like one of those guys telling people they don't have to pay income tax or don't have to obey the law when they go to court because there is a flag with gold fringe in the courtroom...LOL

Truth is an insurance company is NEVER gonna agree to insure something that a homeowner fabricated themselves.  Even if you got some version of this certified there would be so many variables and expenses in engineering (the stove AND the structure) that I just don't see it ever being cost effective.    

Welcome to Permies Bob.

You are right. Insurance will never insure home owner built RMH. What advocates of RMH should do is see this as an opportunity and become WETT certified and fully insured installers of RMHs and make a business of building RMHs  and dealing with insurance companies for others. I think there could be  good business in that.  Paul has all these RMH Myth videos .  I notice that he has nt done one on the "myth" that homeowner built RMH can not be insured.  Probably because its not a myth.  

Paul: maybe I am dead wrong. Do the video showing how easily RMH can be insured and give lots of case studies of people getting insurance for their RMH.  But if they cant be insured then why are you promoting  them as a solution for most peoples primary asset, their homes??

I have homeowners insurance for my hand-built cabin and rocket mass heater.  One company (Farmers) refused me because I had no other source of heat.  So, since we have electricity, I bought a small electric heater and had no trouble getting my home insured through State Farm.

I think the takeaway from this is that everyone is right, in certain circumstances or locations. I'm sure many insurers won't touch a homebuilt RMH or other appliance, while some will, and some municipalities won't allow them while others don't care. Laura's story tells us that being creative and persistent is worthwhile.

Chris (Uncle Mud) McClellan and I talking about code and insurance for rocket mass heaters:

In my neck of the woods, a rocket mass heater is considered an "uncertified wood-burning appliance" and codes define
distances, type of heat shields, and method of installations.  Insurance and bank/mortgage companies are satisfied by
getting a certified inspector in to issue  a "WETT" certificate (Wood Energy Technology Transfer Inc).

Rocket mass heaters should have no problems in regard to insurance or building codes..  A lot of juridictions (regional districts) are
outside of fire protection area where the only building codes followed are the electrical.  Ease of buildng is countered by the
cost of insurance.  Being outside a fire protection district can add thousands to your yearly insurance bill,so many people don't insure.

The problem is that some jurisdictions in my area have environmental regs that do not allow non-UL uncertified wood burners.
It will Be interesting to see, after the COVID-19 issue blows over, just how much people go back to concentrating on climate change.
Laws presently allowing RMHs can, with the literal stroke of the pen, be changed so that areas that now allowthem will go and make
them "illegal".


 

Welcome to the illegal world of rocket mass heaters... Canadian style.
I am located in Ontario Canada, and have a rocket stove in my workshop, that after burning for 6 hours, will heat the shop for 3 days....
I have talked to several insurance companies about putting one in my main dwelling, only too be told "no".
My brother wanted to put one in his home close by, and was told "if a light buld starts a fire in the front of your house, and we find out you have a rocket in the back of the house, your insurance will be null and void" - NOT ALLOWED
In Canada, you have to find someone who is willing to build it for you (or with you) then turn around and certify it. I have talked to at least 6 different masons and wood stove people, and they all say the same thing - not interested....   Of course, why would they be ?  I built my rocket stove for less than 200 $ and it requries very little maintenance, while these guys have the market cornered on 5,000 dollar wood stoves, that burn out and need to be replaced, inspected and cleaned regularly....

sorry, my bitterness is showing... but Rocket Mass Heaters are not acceptable or allowed in Canada.

Another angle on this ...

I hear a rumor that nobody in the united states every smoked any pot at all until it was 100% legal on every level.  So all we have to do is wait and it will be 100% legal.  A little patience is a good thing - after all, it's not like we're all going to die while we wait, right?

Chalky,
We've had two RMHs insured here in Ohio. The first one a CottageRocket insured in an outbuilding as a self constructed kit stove("like those barrel stove kits, only it is insulated inside and doesn't produce soot or creosote. wouldn't you like to collect wood stove insurance premiums on a house with no creosote fore risk?" is what I said to the actuary when I was able to talk to one. I will ask which companies my clients used in case that helps, but may not due to you being in Canada. The second is a cob and brick rocket with a terracotta chimney flue as the bell liner in the bench. It is code approved and insured as a self built masonry heater. The code guy considered the barrel to be a manifold and not part of the heater per se. The insurance company only wanted it to be code approved. We are working on an ASTM standard for non-batch wood fired heaters that the EPA will accept as a burn protocol so we can get rocket heaters EPA tested so it is economically viable to produce UL listed rocket heater cores which will make this sort of thing a lot easier.

Best of luck.
--Mud

Jeff Marchand wrote:
Yes cutting firewood is work but quite frankly most of us in the 21st century could do with a little more physical effort in our lives. My wood stove is a high efficiency unit that burns clean.

Not much work going to a company that sells their "mill ends" by the dumpster full, and these stack very nicely.

paul wheaton wrote:Another angle on this ...

I hear a rumor that nobody in the united states every smoked any pot at all until it was 100% legal on every level.  So all we have to do is wait and it will be 100% legal.  A little patience is a good thing - after all, it's not like we're all going to die while we wait, right?

Well, . . . Youre out in the boonies right?
Some of us live in more incorporated areas and work in factories ect, so ya we might - stay safe.

Since the last posts, has anyone heard of any successful permitting/ insuring projects for RMH around the northeast? I am trying to get one permitted and eventually insured for a new built house in NY state. Thanks!

An Bu wrote:Since the last posts, has anyone heard of any successful permitting/ insuring projects for RMH around the northeast? I am trying to get one permitted and eventually insured for a new built house in NY state. Thanks!

Well, first of all, you're not trying to insure a "rocket mass heater" but just a ''mass heater" And go batch, instead of J tube. Far easier to insure something with a door i think.

Aka. An owner built masonry heater, right?