Avian flu concerns

Hello, I am having a very hard time deciding whether I should continue to have laying hens. I love them dearly and they bring me very much joy but I am extremely concerned at the risk of them transmitting bird flu to me. I have them in an enclosed run and coop with very little chance for wild birds to enter, although they could poop on it in passing because it’s not roofed but rather screened in, and I take bio security measures with myself including coop specific boots gloves and am sure to wash my hands after dealing with them. Even with all of this I feel as though having them puts me at an increased risk of illness and death compared to the regular population. Does anyone have any ideas to keep me safer? Small livestock options that can’t get me sick? Id really hate to get rid of my birds but it seems like the only thing I can do to ease my fear.
Thank you

The risk of chicken to human is low.  It's usually chicken to cat to human.  

Basically we keep a closed flock this year (no new animals or animal products in) and do a health check on all the birds twice a day (tails up, happy behaviour, no sneezing except in the one chicken that has had permanent allergy symptoms since he was hatched three years ago, etc).  

If it does go bird to human, then it's almost always through the eyes so if you can wear glasses or learn not to touch the eyes, the risk is about as low as walking in the park.  Gloves and a mask (like the high quality dust ones) for doing dusty chores add a small layer of protection and a huge layer of protection by reminding you to be careful.  Of course, washing hand and if covered in dust, have a shower and do laundry.

All that stuff we should be doing anyway as chickens have way worse things than bird flu - says the person who's been hospitalized in intensive care due to Campylobacter twice thanks to "helpful" people not following protocol and keeping bird shit out of the kitchen.  There's a reason why we wash our hands after handling raw (including alive) chicken.  

But basically, the risk of getting bird flu here (West Coast of Canada) is far greater in cat owners than chicken owners right now as it has a lot of trouble jumping from bird to human, but is very easy to jump from mammal to mammal.  

I haven't heard of anyone in Canada catching bird flu from a small hobby flock where the chooks are mostly outside.  It seems to be the indoor commercial operations that have a much stronger risk.  

it’s really quite rare that avian flu jumps from birds to humans in the first place. that you are using any PPE at all probably makes you pretty darn safe, in my opinion. only you know what will assuage the particular fears that you have, but keeping homestead chickens is not at all a serious risk in my book. and my mom was a virologist.

I respect that everyone has their own level of risk tolerance, so all of this is taken from my own point of view with a sprinkling of information that feeds my decision making.

There has been a lot of different variations of avian flu but a recent adaptation has been the talk of the town very recently. My understanding is that this particular adaptation is HPAI (Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza) and has acquired the ability to jump to mammals which COULD have negative consequences for us humans. The virus is spread through mucus, saliva, and manure. While songbirds could hypothetically transmit the disease (currently viewed as low risk), it seems to be waterfowl populations are where the transmission numbers have been seen to be highest (Source).

The USDA has an updated graphic showing confirmed reports of Avian Flu outbreaks in commercial and home flocks so you can keep an eye where localized events are happening. This can be viewed here.

Personally, my birds are limited in their roaming and I know that their contact with wild birds is small and incidental. I believe the biggest thing we can do for our birds is to make sure that their food and water is only accessible by our birds to prevent cross contamination. I also follow good hygiene habits such as chicken specific boots and good hand hygiene after handling my bird or their stuff. I don't have migratory waterfowl stop on my property and I keep a pretty good eye on my hens health so I'm continuing as normal personally.

Thank you for your replies. Do either of you have a source I can check as to the difficulty of chicken to human infections as well as the route of infection being mostly through the eyes? From what I have read from the cdc it says that people who work with livestock and poultry are at highest risk.

I couldn't quickly find an eyes reference, but this page: https://www.cdc.gov/bird-flu/spotlights/protect-farm-workers-bird-flu-11082024.html says that most humans who've been infected were culling sick chickens or working in a milking parlor -- which makes it sound like bodily fluids are very much the main transmission vector and your eyes are great-big receptors for splashes and droplets. With other infectious agents like this, the eyes matter.

Also, I thought this was at least interesting if not particularly useful. It looks like most mammals found with H5N1 are skunks, fox, and domestic cats:

Nick Kulik wrote:Thank you for your replies. Do either of you have a source I can check as to the difficulty of chicken to human infections as well as the route of infection being mostly through the eyes? From what I have read from the cdc it says that people who work with livestock and poultry are at highest risk.

I got mine mostly from the BCCDC since we have the first home caught case of bird flu in human in canada (this round), there is a lot of energy going into this kind of education.   Their youtube briefings are also useful.  We've lost a lot of flocks to culling in our area,  so I follow it pretty closely.

We also have contaminated cat food sold here so there is a much larger risk of human infection over the next few weeks.

Eye as the main vector comes from bccdc, bbc, and my family member who is a nurse in the hospital and got training for identifying early cases then gave me a 2 hour, unasked for, lecture on how to stay safe.  Pink eye is the usual first symptom in humans according to her training and basically they got to start quiet ppe and quarantine procedures so not to alam, until they can rule it out.

I'm okay with the current risk.  

If any of my birds or wild birds get ill, then I will up my game.  

Or if I owned a cat, that would increase my concern of getting bird flu.

Also, it's exactly the same measures that stop us getting normal flu, cold, covid, and other infections illness.  The bug has to enter the body somehow and there are only so many holes.  Eyes, mouth, nose have the environment needed, so block these and stuff can't get in so long as we wash up well.  And like the regular flu and stuff, more airflow means less risk.

And since bird to human is difficult for the virus, odds are super low.

But that's me.  I'm more worried about regular risks of keeping chickens like stuff that comes from their poo (bacteria, parasite, etc) as these are high risk of contamination to humans and dramatic results.  The things that stop that, pretty much stop the other risks.

From my perspective, r_ranson is bang-on-target. There are reasonable measures that can be taken to largely control the risk. Basic PPE is not expensive or hard to use. It's a concern but hardly a flaming pandemic. The same rules apply.

Curiously, old stashes of alcohol hand sanitizer may be useful again -- it kills avian flu. I've been using it as fire starter. Hm.

The case I mentioned is out of the ICU now https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/video/c3056256-b-c--girl-with-avian-flu-out-of-icu

It's the wild bird version, not the one that spreads to chickens easily.  They had zero contact with domestic poultry prior to becoming ill.  The first symptom was pink eye.

It's interesting as almost all the news broadcasts on this case the last couple of days imply that getting the flu shot is recommended as a prevention.  I haven't found where they are getting this from, but I can see how it would be of a small use as it would help reduce the chance of coinfection.

If it worries you, then maybe chickens aren't a good idea right now.  

The precautions we take every day to protect us against Salmonella, Campylobacter, E. coli, Chlamydia psittaci, Ringworm, etc. also work well against bird flu.  With all that, bird flu is the least of my worries as the chance of catching it from a chook is tiny.  I'm still going to hug my chickens and sing them a song every night.  Just avoid touching my eyes and face, wash my hands for 20+ seconds after handling any raw chicken (alive or dead), and keep those cloths specifically for farm work.

Christopher Weeks wrote:

I have an issue with the graphic posted by Chris.  Where are all the cattle?  Last summer it was a big deal all the dairy farms in Michigan with cows testing positive.  I feel like the data it is based on is inadequate.

I also have chickens, I'm also the Poultry Superintendent for my county fair. The politics and rules about whether or not to have poultry at the fair last year were quite a headache.  I'm hoping this year is better.

Current reports state that the risk of bird flu to the general human population is low, if not very low.

Is there any risk of death for you if you caught the bird flu? As with any virus, if I, or my family members, had an underlying health condition, I would be more careful if bird flu became more widespread. If you are healthy, your body is designed to fight off things like this. I have chickens. I'm actually more worried about them getting mites than the avian flu, so obviously I am not too worried about it. Make sure that you make the decision that is right for you. It certainly would not benefit you to have birds if the thought of bird flu is stressing you out. The stress would outweigh the benefit of the eggs, I think. Be wary of watching the news too much, as the news outlets like to make these viruses into something they are not, in order to gain viewers.

As for ideas to keep you safe, I might think about adding apple cider vinegar to the chickens drinking water to make them healthier, which would help them fend off any viruses if they were to become in contact with one.  

I have a stray cat I've named McMeow that comes around to get attention and food. I give him some neck scratches and pets, knowing he is most likely full of mites, ticks, possible distemper, etc. Despite the risks, I would not give up my outside kitty up for the world. It took me ages to tame him and I am quite fond of him now. I am careful to go into the house and straight to the sink after he visits to wash my hands thoroughly before touching my other cats or my food. Similarly, I think if bird flu actually became something to worry about, handwashing would remain a top priority when handling any of my outside critters.

I think we could worry all day long, if we did not ignore the news to some extent. I was looking up data to your question earlier, and I came across this headline on the USDA website: "USDA Approves Emergency Funding to Protect U.S. Livestock and Animals from New World Screwworm"   .... therefore, you can see my point. We just need to ignore the news, and intentionally live our lives in ignorant bliss so we can be stress-free and happy and still have our beloved animals.

Thomas Dean wrote:I have an issue with the graphic posted by Chris.  Where are all the cattle?

Probably on a map that isn't all about "wild mammals". It looks like I overstated the map's usefulness. :-/

It's scary news indeed. You can spend your life working your land, making it the most resilient permaculture property in the world. But even if you had the most insular way of life with your permaculture landscape providing for your every need, even to the point you no longer need to venture into the outside world; you still aren't safe when the outside world ventures into your property with bird flu. At some point, something is going to get you. If you aren't safe with permaculture, what are your other options? Underground bunker? Hole under a rock? Plastic bubble? Locked, padded rooms? Are any of these worse than bird flu? Not sure.

I'm going keep gardening with my chickens and ducks. I'll feed them loads of greens and some occasional yoghurt. Maybe toss them some cider vinegar and garlic in their water. I'll deep mulch with wood chips and maybe even spray the area with JMS. But most importantly, I'll say nice things to them and tell them how much I appreciate them.

r ranson wrote:. . .

All that stuff we should be doing anyway as chickens have way worse things than bird flu - says the person who's been hospitalized in intensive care due to Campylobacter twice thanks to "helpful" people not following protocol and keeping bird shit out of the kitchen.  There's a reason why we wash our hands after handling raw (including alive) chicken.  . . .  

You have my sympathy.  I had campylobacter once thanks to a dodgy canteen.  One of the worst sicknesses I've experienced.

As to bird flu, for a historical point of reference, there was the bird flu panic of 2005.  Professor Neil Ferguson was quoted as saying "Up to 200 million could die."  In the end, the death toll was in the low hundreds worldwide, and none in the USA.  Which was 100% bad for those affected, but never on the scale of the predictions.

At the time I was following Dr Mercola, who rightly predicted, when everyone else was panicking, that the panic was hugely overblown, and did his best to offer practical health advice about it, through the limitations enforced by censorship rules.

The following year, his book came out, "The Great Bird Flu Hoax".  I highly recommend it, it goes not only into medicine and health, but the media, Big Agra, and more.  To be clear, on page 1 he stated that the bird flu was real and people had died, which was tragic for all those affected, but the degree of panic was never justified.

I think permaculturalists will find what he wrote about farming practices very interesting, and it had practical info on health.

How comparable avian flu of 2005 is to the current avian flu, I cannot say, but owing to past events, I'm less concerned by panics.

I've been learning about hypochlorous acid solution. It sounds like a very effective solution for all kinds of viruses, including avian flu and covid, among many others. It is used in hospitals as a very effective disinfectant as well. It is very easily made at home once one has the right equipment, which is an initial investment of between about $50 and $100, depending on the size container one opts for. After that, it is simply a matter of mixing non-city water, non-ionized salt , and vinegar into the equipment and mixing a few minutes. One is also able to test strength of it by getting testing strips for pH as well as levels of chlorine.

Here is a link to a youtube video showing a bit more about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUAS2FrAojw

And here is a science experiment done with it on avian influenza:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4363024/

There are many more such experiments and information on the internet about it as well.

I read that some people are also taking it internally as a preventative.
And it seems mammal bodies make hypochlorous acid naturally  as a defence mechanism against infectious organisms.

I find it all sounds rather promising!

I have been putting 3 tbls of fire cider in my chickens water. I have 18 birds. They are flourishing!

I have worked with people with a variety of diseases over the years. I have never caught anything off of them. I take reasonable precautions, such as washing my hands, but nothing I see as excessive.  I am keeping my chickens until there is a firm reason not to.

It may be different where you live, but influenza vaccines are usually based on a number of strains of influenza, and give some degree of protection even against new mutations. It may be worth while to find out what local health authorities think about the potential protection available vaccines will give.

Since getting moderately ill is hard to see as a problem, and getting seriously ill is after all very unlikely, it is worth considering what lengths it is reasonable to go to to theoretically reduce the risk from very small to a tiny bit smaller. As somebody said (or implied anyway) above, whatever you do your risk will not be zero. Getting rid of your chickens seems excessive to me, unless you are seriously immunocompromised - in which case I too would worry more about other infections they could give you.

I like to think about Joel Salatin drinking after his cows have plunged their whole faces down into the water trough, and my entire childhood drinking out a creek that 150 head of cattle watered in 200 yards upstream and this seems like a lot of hand wringing for a very small chance of exposure. As humans, we can never insulate ourselves from all dangers. Keep your flock happy and healthy and do the same for yourself in whatever way you see fit, but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it at this point in time.

We have had chickens for 20 years and have done exactly nothing for avian flu. We usually have 15-20 and they are mostly outside except in the coldest winter days, which keeps them robust.

I agree there is a lot of Big Media and Big Pharma and Big Ag behind a lot of the fear hype. As we have always done, we avoid pharmaceuticals for ourselves and our livestoock and use plenty of immune boosters like what has been mentioned already (ACV, garlic, mushrooms, probiotics, etc). Finding ways that work for you to relieve your worry will probably do a great deal of good too as stress is not good for health. A simple mantra for you could be "I am clean, careful and feel good."

I'm wondering if anyone here has a good source for how to spot a potential infection in your flock? My quick search across the net shows lots of "bird acting unusual" which is awfully vague and unhelpful. We tend to keep some older birds around at bit past their prime as I'm often too busy to harvest them, and right now there's a sad sack bird in our flock that is on culling priority, but she seems to be garden variety bottom the pecking order unhealthy, not any sickness.

I found this FAQ summary quite useful:

https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-health/avian-influenza-and-your-small-poultry-flock-faq.html

More specific symptoms:

https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-health/avian-influenza-and-your-farm.html

Small flock biosecurity:

https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/animal-health-and-welfare/animal-health/avian-influenza-and-your-farm.html