Fruit tree planting advice

Hi All,

Brand new here, but it looks like a wealth of information. I was curious on any advice for fruit tree planting. I'd like to do it right the first time.

For some context, my home has a section that was left un-enclosed prior to our purchase. We are looking to expand our fence and include this in our yard. My plans currently involve the city removing the dying trees that were planted, and fencing along the property line, to the front wall of our house. This would leave us with a roughly 24ft wide x 55ft long rectangle. One portion of this would be bordered by the west-facing wall of our house.

I would like to move our current garden and expand upon it in these section of the yard. Currently I'm looking at 2 apple trees, a persimmon tree, a pear tree and a peach tree to incorporate into this space. Despite my idealistic sketches, I'm not actually sure how to tackle planting the trees to also incorporate the rest of the garden.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I've included a picture of the area for reference, also I live in the Central Valley of California.

Looking forward to being here!

Matt Gonzalez

Welcome to Permies!

I'm not an expert, and I only have a couple minutes, but I think one of the most important things for the longevity of fruit trees is not planting them too deep. The tree should flare out a bit above ground. If the flare is below ground it will increase the change of issues down the road.

Hi Matt,

My observations based on experience of planting over 200 fruit trees.

1. The soil in Central Valley is poor in organic matter. After digging out the dirt (the hole at least twice the diameter of the root system) I mix it with 50% of compost. For a young tree/bush it will mean to survive or not.
2. Rodent pressure. I always plant in home made planting cages made of 1/2" opening chicken wire. Please do not use larger opening - small gophers will go through them.
3. Try to protect the tree from excessive sun. Despite the nursery catalogs using the word 'full-sun". It looks that they mean Midwest, East or Souteast full sun and it's a different sun than southwester/western sun. Completely clear skies for several months, combined with very low humidity and high heat is too much for most of the fruit trees. It looks that you already have tall trees around you so it will help A LOT (I'm establishing trees on a sloping frying pan).
4. Mulch a lot and irrigate deeply two times per week in hot months.

Persimmons will do good. European pears need quite a bit of winter cold. Low chill apples are rather flavorless.
Peaches will be happy. I would definitely add figs and some citrus - mandarins or kumquats. Their evergreen foliage will beautify your area in the gloomier months. You could also try Asian plums and apricots.

I'm in agreement with Cristobal, especially #3- "try to protect the trees from excessive sun" and #4- "mulch a lot". I might add that most young trees in your hot climate require protection on their trunks from sun burn and sun scald, as well as borers. I advise that after planting, try painting the trunks from 1 inch below the soil line to the bottom branches with white latex paint or a similar product designed to protect the young trees. Wood chips from hardwoods make great mulch.

I might add that you might try  consulting with your local extension agent or fruit tree nursery person about the best varieties for your area. You want trees (and rootstocks) that are low chill, bear lots of delicious fruit, can take the heat, pollinate themselves (or each other)  and resist local diseases. For example, in this area (Oregon), I always advise that people buy peach leaf curl resistant varieties like Indian Blood and Frost. Don't just buy whatever the local supermarket or big box store is selling, try to buy from a reputable, locally-owned  nursery or go to a local fruit tree propagation fair/seed swap event. The people at these events are always super helpful.

Good luck and have fun!

My thought is to check for any utility right of way on your property report. It's something to consider anytime you plant trees in your front yard.  In my area, if a utility company ever needs to do work, they have the right to cut down any trees in the way and do not need to compensate you for them. You'll have to check if that's true for your property.

The most important thing is to pick the right trees. Are there any major pests or diseases in your area that you need to watch out for? Cedar Apple Rust, Fireblight, and Japanese Beetles are probably the most impactful in my area. Choosing trees with resistance to those makes things much easier.  Also, be sure to know your ripening schedule ahead of time. Having one month where everything is ripe, followed by 11 months of nothing, would be sad. Finally, see what your neighbors have.  I stopped planting apple trees a while ago because there are so many people with apple trees nearby who want to get rid of the fruit.

C Shahid wrote:My thought is to check for any utility right of way on your property report. It's something to consider anytime you plant trees in your front yard.  In my area, if a utility company ever needs to do work, they have the right to cut down any trees in the way and do not need to compensate you for them. You'll have to check if that's true for your property.

Thanks for the advice, luckily the power lines are on the other side of our home.

M.K. Dorje Sr. wrote:I'm in agreement with Cristobal, especially #3- "try to protect the trees from excessive sun" and #4- "mulch a lot". I might add that most young trees in your hot climate require protection on their trunks from sun burn and sun scald, as well as borers. I advise that after planting, try painting the trunks from 1 inch below the soil line to the bottom branches with white latex paint or a similar product designed to protect the young trees. Wood chips from hardwoods make great mulch.

I might add that you might try  consulting with your local extension agent or fruit tree nursery person about the best varieties for your area. You want trees (and rootstocks) that are low chill, bear lots of delicious fruit, can take the heat, pollinate themselves (or each other)  and resist local diseases. For example, in this area (Oregon), I always advise that people buy peach leaf curl resistant varieties like Indian Blood and Frost. Don't just buy whatever the local supermarket or big box store is selling, try to buy from a reputable, locally-owned  nursery or go to a local fruit tree propagation fair/seed swap event. The people at these events are always super helpful.

Good luck and have fun!

Thank you!

We have a really great nursery in town that gives all information about rootstocks and chill on their description of bare root trees they have available for the year. I will definitely consider the protection methods you described as I had not considered that.

Matt Gonzalez wrote:

C Shahid wrote:My thought is to check for any utility right of way on your property report. It's something to consider anytime you plant trees in your front yard.  In my area, if a utility company ever needs to do work, they have the right to cut down any trees in the way and do not need to compensate you for them. You'll have to check if that's true for your property.

Thanks for the advice, luckily the power lines are on the other side of our home.

If the water lines run across your yard, as it looks to by the fire hydrant, you'll have to consider buried utilities too.

Welcome, Matt!
Your plan sounds exciting!
For the fruit trees, consider spacing them at least 15-20 feet apart to allow for growth and airflow.
I think choosing shorter trees like peach or persimmon on the west side can minimize shading.
Looking forward to seeing your progress!

Nirmal Vidura wrote: For the fruit trees, consider spacing them at least 15-20 feet apart to allow for growth and airflow.

I was just going to say the same thing about spacing. I almost planted mine too close to one another. It's hard to remember to give them so much space when they are still such young, small little stick-looking cuties.

M.K. Dorje Sr. wrote:I might add that you might try  consulting with your local extension agent or fruit tree nursery person about the best varieties for your area. You want trees (and rootstocks) that are low chill, bear lots of delicious fruit, can take the heat, pollinate themselves (or each other)  and resist local diseases.

Yes! Local extensions offices are a wonderful resource (in most counties, anyway). The one where we live even sells many types of fruit trees in the spring, and at a very good price, too!

Hi Matt welcome to permies! I'm sure the answers you've already had for the trees are most useful for your climate. I'll just add making sure that the reason the existing trees died won't affect the new ones. There are lots of reasons they could have died, including being poorly looked after once planted. I like to plant trees as young as possible - that way they have a chance to get established well without staking. Your conditions are very different though!
You ask about how to incorporate the rest of the garden in your design and that is a big question which is where permaculture as a design system really comes into it's own. Without knowing your details I can only suggest looking at where the sun and wind and water come from now, how the trees may affect these things. Think about pollinators and predatory insects to support your trees, can you plant flowers around them to support a healthy population (have a search for "plant guilds" to get some suggestions perhaps)? Where are you needing to or wanting to walk, how will you harvest and store the fruit? There will be a lot of space between the trees while they are growing, how can you use that in a beneficial way?
I hope this helps and that your trees thrive

Nancy Reading wrote:Hi Matt welcome to permies! I'm sure the answers you've already had for the trees are most useful for your climate. I'll just add making sure that the reason the existing trees died won't affect the new ones. There are lots of reasons they could have died, including being poorly looked after once planted. I like to plant trees as young as possible - that way they have a chance to get established well without staking. Your conditions are very different though!
You ask about how to incorporate the rest of the garden in your design and that is a big question which is where permaculture as a design system really comes into it's own. Without knowing your details I can only suggest looking at where the sun and wind and water come from now, how the trees may affect these things. Think about pollinators and predatory insects to support your trees, can you plant flowers around them to support a healthy population (have a search for "plant guilds" to get some suggestions perhaps)? Where are you needing to or wanting to walk, how will you harvest and store the fruit? There will be a lot of space between the trees while they are growing, how can you use that in a beneficial way?
I hope this helps and that your trees thrive

Thank you Nancy!

That is my little predicament as this area will run north to south and only be sheltered in the eastern side by our home. As far as I can tell the trees are likely dying from old age. From some research it seems our city planted a significant amount of Modesto Ash trees within the city. I've been given a large lifespan of these trees, with the lowest being about 40 years old. A few neighbors have indicated that  all of these trees were planted when this tract was developed in the 50's. Ideally I wouldn't mind keeping them, but the limbs that haven't fallen off yet are posing risk to either our neighbors home or our own home.

Do you have any restrictions on what you can plant? Think about the maintenance time you will have - perennials once established take less time, annuals a bit more, lawns (probably) most of all! Do you get to keep the bits of the old trees? How about hugel cultur? Or for bed edging, trellises, or other structures, it would be nice to use them on site if that is permitted. Maybe the wood is actually or timer quality and could be used from something more structural.

Sketch something up, and we can maybe make some more suggestions - think about how your family might use the area. Make a list of plants you like the sound of and see how they might fit in. I'm not familiar with your area - what climate zone is that? How much rain in summer? It sounds like extremes of temperature can be a problem from what Cristobal says. Can we think of other ways to mitigate that? Stones can absorb heat in daytime and release over night. In my climate I find things will germinate in the paths that never do in my garden beds. Any rocky resources? What else might have the same effect - water perhaps, trees once they are established?

One of the permaculture methods is to look at natural patterns and apply them. What is the natural flow of the area, how will you move around it? Do any patterns seem to fit?

Matt Gonzalez wrote:[That is my little predicament as this area will run north to south and only be sheltered in the eastern side by our home.

5 out of my 10 figs planted in a lot with eastern shading produced fruits the first year. For comparison 2 out of 6 figs planted on an open, sloping part of the south facing orchards died and the rest struggled to just survive - no fruits of course.
I have noticed that the sun in the San Joaquin Valley is a bit less intense than my sun in the mountains, due to agricultural dust and lower elevation. Sometimes when I wake up in the the spring and look at objects illuminated by the low sun rays, they look like reflecting light from a welder.
I conclude that you should have sufficient amount of early hours shading for your trees.

Welcome to the forums, Matt!

All great advice/input from the much more experienced permies above, and humbly adding some of mine based on continually learning from my rookie mistakes

To reiterate some:
-PLEASE double check any utility lines before digging
-Observe and interact (this will be dynamic as you continue to establish different plants obviously)
-Scale of permanence
***IF you're considering removing "dead" large trees, many times it is better earlier than later (i.e. removing trees may be much more difficult once your landscape is more established)
***Will you be capturing water
***What will your access path(s) look like (e.g. especially adjacent to the home, driveway, etc. once plants are established)
-Fully-established size, disease resistance, and pollination requirements

Imagining what your space can look like, here's one of many examples that may be of inspiration:
Andrew Millison - How I Turned My Yard Into a Food Paradise


If attempting to maximize growing space with fruit trees, here's an article that may provide (hopefully not analysis-paralysis though!) some food for thought.
I am currently experimenting with a couple of chestnut trees with the "high density" planting.

To quote the author, however, as something to keep in mind: "The more you want to control the growth of your garden, the more effort it will take to maintain it“

Deep Green Permaculture - Backyard Orchard Culture

Deep Green Permaculture - How to Plant Two or More Trees in the Same Hole for High Density Tree Planting

A couple of additional options may be to look into "espalier" training and/or columnar apples, or consider cane / vining fruit to take advantage of the fencing that you plan to install.

I used to take the approach of "plant and forget."
There is certainly beauty in and a place for that, and I still practice that in many areas of our tiny property.

In my case, the lawn was already established.
Part of my selfish goals as a human steward in regenerating soil biology and "cultivated space," if I am going to be in relationship with the fruit trees for decades (in this case), is to attempt to tap into their genetic potential (i.e. yield and flavor), which is why I took some courses that teach the fundamentals of fruit tree care.

From that standpoint, here's one that I would recommend (imgine that you can purchase the years/experience/knowledge for the price of 1 or 2 trees):
Growing Fruit Trees with Ease: Fruit Tree Fundamentals E-course

If you can afford a bit extra, this package may be another option since it includes the above-mentioned course and SO MANY additional resources!
2023 Permaculture Adventure Bundle

Finally, if you're looking for woodchips (for mulch, walkway, etc.), ChipDrop may be worth considering.
I recently posted a podcast that talks about this if you'd like to take a peek:
Best Wood Chips for Fruit Trees with Linda Chalker-Scott

Good luck and keep growing!