a willow feeder is NOT a composting toilet

Composting toilets are illegal in many counties and states.  For good reason.

The designs are solid.  It is a few sloppy implementations that are the problem.  

To solve problems we need a stronger solution.  A much stronger solution.  Something so good that it is better than any other other solutions.  Clearly better and difficult to botch.  

There is a lot of room for optimization BUT, as is, it is better than anything else.


Credit where credit is due:  A composting toilet (whether using bacteria, fungus, worms or black soldier fly larvae) has a fascinating advantage.  With a big enough container and proper care, the container will never need to be emptied.  All of the oranic matter will, in time, decompose and go into the atmosphere.  The only remains are the minerals that cannot decompose into atmospheric gasses. I like the idea of designing something down this road for certain non-gardener solutions.  At the same time, it would be brutally difficult to get it approved because so many lawmakers have already made a stand against all composting toilets.

The willow feeder works hard to NOT compost.  We want to keep that organic matter.  Once the pathogens are gone, we want that material to build massive ornamental gardens - starting with the amazingly useful willow tree.


https://permies.com/wiki/287110/Cleaning-Rivers-Oceans-Home-willow

I learned something new.  

I admit to getting put off by the humanuer book many years ago,  it looked like a lot of work to do it right and a lot of risk if I don't.

The composting toilets I used smelled worse than hole in the ground ones, but probably because they require care and attention they weren't getting.

I've never tried this willow feeder system.

I have visited some composting toilets that smelled terrible.  And some that had no smell.  

I think that the willow feeder system could be modified to be an odorless composting toilet - but it would no longer be a willow feeder.  

Why doesn't it compost then? is it the storage stage? Does this make it like a slow dessicating toilet system?

paul wheaton wrote:Composting toilets are illegal in many counties and states.  For good reason.

The designs are solid.  It is a few sloppy implementations that are the problem.  

To solve problems we need a stronger solution.  A much stronger solution.  Something so good that it is better than any other other solutions.  Clearly better and difficult to botch.  

Reminds me of what bureaucrats say before forming a new regulatory arm of the government.

In all seriousness, I believe part of the interest in permaculture and other more natural processes has to do with folks being willing to really think through things and make value judgements. I doubt there is one simple solution that is easy. Wait a minute, that is how we got the water sealed toilet.

Our culture is OBSESSED with the relentless pursuit of leisure. Any step away from the water sealed toilet will involve more of your time. Even if it is just the time to build the apparatus. I find this to be true of most practices where you try to "grow your own" so to speak. I believe it is okay that this is the case, personally.

As odd as this may sound, I find great joy in participating in the compost toilet process. I realize this is partly because I have the end result in my mind as I am working through the steps necessary to do the Jenkins system and similar.

I can really appreciate that you are developing these materials to give folks other options to consider while navigating an approach that does not involve the water sealed toilet. I imagine many people with give it a try as it is intermediate between water seal and Jenkins style as far as "hands on".

As far as the health department is concerned, no one needs to know...

paul wheaton wrote:The willow feeder works hard to NOT compost.  We want to keep that organic matter.  Once the pathogens are gone, we want that material to build massive ornamental gardens - starting with the amazingly useful willow tree.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/willow-feeders?ref=4sgel6

We know what composting is and those who are observant can see that over time the matter in the compost pile "disappears" - if left alone for long enough, the organic matter breaks down and the gasses from decomposition go into the atmosphere.

What is the word that describes the willow feeder process?  Is it strictly a pathogen killer process through drying and if so, does the poop still look like poop after two years)? Is that would apply be dessication? Or is there some kind of breaking down going on?

What happens when you put the product from the willow feeder process next to a willow tree, where it gets watered - doesn't it essentially begin to decompose and become compost then?

Lif Strand wrote:We know what composting is and those who are observant can see that over time the matter in the compost pile "disappears" - if left alone for long enough, the organic matter breaks down and the gasses from decomposition go into the atmosphere.
What is the word that describes the willow feeder process?  

This slow decomposition is called moldering.   Because we have far more carbon than nitrogen, the process is slow and does not create much heat.  This allows the material to stay in a solid form rather than becoming a gas that can float away or you can smell.  

Lif Strand wrote:Is it strictly a pathogen killer process through drying and if so, does the poop still look like poop after two years)?

After two years of moldering in the can, there is no visible poop or toilet paper.   It just looks like damp wood shavings and soil.  In a willow feeder system, the pathogens are dying because they cannot survive for extended periods of time outside a living host.  
Time and heat are effective ways to kill the pathogens that live in human poop.  Some compost toilets are using the heat of the composting process to kill these pathogens.  They use a higher nitrogen to carbon ratio to achieve this heat.  More gasses and smells are released from a hot compost pile than in a cool moldering system.
Other composting toilets are using the digestive systems of worms, flies and other organisms to kill the pathogens.  

Lif Strand wrote:What happens when you put the product from the willow feeder process next to a willow tree, where it gets watered - doesn't it essentially begin to decompose and become compost then?

When we spread the aged material under a tree is acts as a mulch.   Worms and other organisms will come and eat the material and carry it down into the soil.  Because we have used time instead of heat, we have more nutrients left to build our soil.  

Samantha Lewis wrote: Some compost toilets are using the heat of the composting process to kill these pathogens.  They use a higher nitrogen to carbon ratio to achieve this heat.  More gasses and smells are released from a hot compost pile than in a cool moldering system.

I would add that this is true if the pile is uncovered or turned. That is, if you do not cover the pile with a high carbon material like straw, leaves, grass clipping when you make the deposits.

If you cover, there is no smell, whatsoever.

Samantha Lewis  thank you for the great answers to my questions!  

True
A willow feeder is much better.

In rural Canada a certified compost toilet is accepted in many municipalities as a substitute for septic system. I lived in a passive solar cord wood house that got its building permit with a Sunmar, which while I was there was ditched for a sugar maple feeder. I was given the Sunmar!

I am optimistic with time that the willow feeder will become as well understood as the compost toilet. Perhaps the eBook could have unlimited free copying permission but a suggested donation?

I only just nos read a brief description of the willow feeding system , but it reminded me of my even  simpler method, ( but I'm going to learn more about it and see what about it that I can use also).

I have  been composting my waste for a few years. It js ridiculously easy and simp!e (as long as I ignored .most people's advice)!

Most people overcomplicate it greatly. The way I have been doing it is even easier and simpler than almost anything .

All I do is use a simp!e 5 gallon bucket and put a litt!e mulch and leaves to cover each " deposit.".
When it's full I simply bring it to my compositing area outside where there are 2 large 40 gallon trash cans ( plastic) with a few drain holes in the bottoms.  Those are my composters.

When the 5 gallon poop pal is full, I just dump it into one 40 gal trash "can" and put the lid back on. I also drape a camo tarp over it to protect it from sun damage and keep out any escaping odors.

Here is the most important part: DO NOTHING!!

No need to shovel and turn it ever. Also no need to worry about " correct" carbon/ nitrogen ratios, aeration, becoming anaerobic, or anything else.  After one 40 gal trash can is full (takes over a year for 1 person) , I just let it sit there for another full year. (In the meantime I use the 2nd 40 gal can to dump my other filled 5 gal pop pots).

So after the year or so of letting the filled 40 gal can sit there, I just dump it out in a pile right there and cover it with  a tarp to keep rain out. It does not smell bad by then or look like poop. After another year of further breaking down while being down on the earth with all the worms and fungi, , its ready to fertilize my  trees with.

Its so easy and simple.  I'm sure places in the 40 gal trash cans become anaerobic . But it doesn't matter in the end because it all be ones aerobic in the end.

Anyway,  I think its interesting how easy this works and how you can ignore all the normal " correct" composting advice and end up with awesome compost with hardly any work.


Adios!!
Pete

A toilet that uses worms is not a composting toilet because it doesn’t compost. It’s a vermiculture toilet.

A toilet that uses black soldier fly larvae is also not a composting toilet for the same reason, but I don’t know the name.

Composting toilets aren’t necessarily illegal, they’re just regulated and controlled - for the good reason that if one person can’t manage a composting toilet it impacts other people’s safety. Septic systems aren’t illegal, but if there’s a sewer pipe outside you can’t use one - you have to connect.

I’m unclear of the difference to a composting toilet system. Looking at the design, you collect poo and carbon rich material in a large bin and leave it to compost in the bin -aided by an aeration pipe- for 2 years. The moderate meaophillic temperatures from aerobic decomposition over 2 years kill pathogens. - so far this is a composting toilet.

You then put the compost on a willow tree.

I’m with you on trying to improve sanitation but I’m unclear of the difference to a composting toilet system. What am I missing?

I live in eastern Washington State, and composting toilets are legal within circumstances whereas most people who would want a composting toilet, could have one.

Most interestingly... if you have a traditional plumbed flush toilet available in your home, then you can have a composting toilet.  

Because composting toilets don't actually make compost, the majority of the rules are about where not to dump the material. School playgrounds, waterways, city streets, and parking lots, *SMH* are some of the places they have had to list in the code, but even these are written with caveats.

I have a Natures Head, and the material is composted with the rest of the sanctuary poo and bedding, and feeds the earth.  I live in there high desert, so we are essentially making soil to enhance the burned out clay on basalt substrate on our property.

R Peter wrote:A toilet that uses worms is not a composting toilet because it doesn’t compost. It’s a vermiculture toilet.

A toilet that uses black soldier fly larvae is also not a composting toilet for the same reason, but I don’t know the name.

Composting toilets aren’t necessarily illegal, they’re just regulated and controlled - for the good reason that if one person can’t manage a composting toilet it impacts other people’s safety. Septic systems aren’t illegal, but if there’s a sewer pipe outside you can’t use one - you have to connect.

I’m unclear of the difference to a composting toilet system. Looking at the design, you collect poo and carbon rich material in a large bin and leave it to compost in the bin -aided by an aeration pipe- for 2 years. The moderate meaophillic temperatures from aerobic decomposition over 2 years kill pathogens. - so far this is a composting toilet.

You then put the compost on a willow tree.

I’m with you on trying to improve sanitation but I’m unclear of the difference to a composting toilet system. What am I missing?

I have both worms and BSF in my outdoor compost bin. I think it's just semantics(?) as to who is doing the composting.

I think the thing you are missing is that the whole idea is to dry it out and slow composting as much as possible. Keep all of it in order to "compost" outside in place at a later date after any possible baddies have died from not having a host or moisture for so long. That's what the air tube is for so that it dries all through. There's a good post above where Samantha explains the mouldering.

If it composts in the willow feeder you're not feeding willows but feeding the atmosphere. At least that is my understanding.

Maybe a willow feeder could be described as a carbonitrogen capture toilet?

Milwaukee has successfully marketed it's sewage as Milorganite forever.

Willowganite is what is dumped outside after two years?

So if the goal is to get the willow feeder accepted by bureaucrats in a way that composting toilets are not, I don’t see why that would happen. I don’t see anything about the willow feeder system that makes it any less likely to be done poorly, which appears to be the main regulatory hurdle for composting toilets. Composting toilets are safe if done right. Willow feeders are safe if done right. The key is the “if done right”. I think education is more important than which type of toilet. Bureaucrats could make regulations that require humanure of any type to be kept contained for two years before spreading it on the ground if that’s the best foolproof way to get rid of pathogens.

As far as funding a dry toilet project, what I would pay real money to support is a system that is plastic free and especially pvc pipe free. I was super disappointed to see that the willow feeder is dependent on plastic trash cans and pvc pipe. PVC is So Toxic!! A point that was hammered home to all of us who live in the Asheville area. The hurricane flooding of the pvc factory dumped enormous amounts of toxic sludge into the French Broad River which when dried out turned into toxic dust that was carried on the wind and made volunteers and residents sick. And that was just the short term impact.

Well composting toilets have to be in a place warm enough for them to compost, (and need ventilation which isn't difficult)

From my experience, the problem is keeping a composting toilet warm enough to function. Where I lived, passive solar, in winter on cloudy days, Ontario, Canada, 50-55F, sunny days 55-60, the toilet wasn't working properly. But the certified Sunmar composting toilet passed the building permit -- a willow feeder or outhouse would not have.

We swapped out fhe Sunmar for 5 gallon buckets and a maple syrup trees feeder system. It worked better, mostly because the buckets were smaller and could be swapped out more frequently and easily. It wasn't ideal. Paul's system is better. I learned a lot about what works and what doesn't, and I would plan a tunnel to a series of personal sheds with personal buckets, one larger guest shed with a stacked function, and a place to store these popsicles in winter with easy access to hot water, and their destination place already prepared.

So yes, I think Paul's system is more foolproof.

I do think the willow feeder system is close to foolproof.

The main way to mess it up is to get urine in with the sawdust and poop, but the problem then is smell, mostly.

You need to figure out a way to get a toilet seat up high enough (my favorite is when there are steps up into the willow feeder and the whole floor is whatever inches off the ground) and you need to figure out how to establish the right airflow if you want it to be smell-free. Those are the main issues.

Please consider pledging to the current Kickstarter so we can create a movie that explains all this! (link above)

An older article regarding composting toilets and regulations:

https://www.omick.net/composting_toilets/composting_regulations.htm

J Katrak wrote:
I have both worms and BSF in my outdoor compost bin. I think it's just semantics(?) as to who is doing the composting

...

If it composts in the willow feeder you're not feeding willows but feeding the atmosphere. At least that is my understanding.

Digestion is not composting so worm castings are not compost. Worm castings are a great as a soil amendment, but they're not compost. Apples are fruit and oranges are fruit, but apples are not oranges.

Trees and Plants push fixed carbon from the atmosphere into the ground to Mycorrhizal fungi in exchange for nutrients. So why try to keep as much carbon as possible when it's the nutrients they want?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217307790#:~:text=Summary,the%20plant%20and%20the%20fungus.

Ascaris eggs are the ultimate survivor and can last upto 10 years outside a host:
https://www.cdc.gov/sth/about/about-ascaris-in-pigs.html#:~:text=Ascaris%20suum%20eggs%20from%20pigs,Ascaris%20suum%20in%20your%20pigs.
It's the temperatures and harsh environment of Composting that kills them - wood ash from a fire can also help by raising the PH.
Could wood ash may be a useful addition to the willow feeder mix to help kill this pathogen?

Testing for Ascaris egg destruction is expensive (especially if you don't have them to start with)  - a proxy that has been proposed is tomato seeds.  - If you have tomato seeds growing in your compost / willow feeder bin, the conditions have probably not been sufficient to kill an ascaris egg.

-R


 

R Peter wrote:

J Katrak wrote:
I have both worms and BSF in my outdoor compost bin. I think it's just semantics(?) as to who is doing the composting

...

If it composts in the willow feeder you're not feeding willows but feeding the atmosphere. At least that is my understanding.

Digestion is not composting so worm castings are not compost. Worm castings are a great as a soil amendment, but they're not compost. Apples are fruit and oranges are fruit, but apples are not oranges.

Trees and Plants push fixed carbon from the atmosphere into the ground to Mycorrhizal fungi in exchange for nutrients. So why try to keep as much carbon as possible when it's the nutrients they want?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217307790#:~:text=Summary,the%20plant%20and%20the%20fungus.

Ascaris eggs are the ultimate survivor and can last upto 10 years outside a host:
https://www.cdc.gov/sth/about/about-ascaris-in-pigs.html#:~:text=Ascaris%20suum%20eggs%20from%20pigs,Ascaris%20suum%20in%20your%20pigs.
It's the temperatures and harsh environment of Composting that kills them - wood ash from a fire can also help by raising the PH.
Could wood ash may be a useful addition to the willow feeder mix to help kill this pathogen?

Testing for Ascaris egg destruction is expensive (especially if you don't have them to start with)  - a proxy that has been proposed is tomato seeds.  - If you have tomato seeds growing in your compost / willow feeder bin, the conditions have probably not been sufficient to kill an ascaris egg.

-R


 

What is compost then? Did not something digest it?
Anyone know how to keep the worms out of my compost bins?

from the second link...

"Ascaris suum eggs from pigs left in the soil can survive for up to 10 years. The eggs are very hardy and can survive harsh environmental conditions like freezing and extreme heat. It is virtually impossible to completely remove Ascaris suum eggs from the environment where an infected pig has been. Consult your veterinarian for recommendations on preventing and controlling Ascaris suum in your pigs."

Sounds like they aren't even killed with extreme heat. It also says in the soil, not outside a host. I wonder what effect drying out has on them.

Also sounds like I could be much more concerned about being anywhere that has had a pig poop on soil in the last ten years.

Hi R,

I didn't notice before that I had responded to your first post. Welcome!

You really got me thinking about compost. That's not what this thread is about but thought I would put this link here. I hope to read all of this someday.

https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil#637639

I think this thread could actually be called "a willow feeder is an anti-composting toilet"

When I first started composting long ago, a thing that stuck in my mind was that you can't really stop composting. You can slow it down or speed it up but pretty hard to stop it. I'm lazy. So what I put on top of my bins does not come out the bottom for years so that was appealing to me.

The willow feeder does it's best to stop it until it's rid of pathogens and can be composted outside in place like any other fallen material.

All that said, I do have a concern about an off the shelf willow feeder where I live. I don't have any actual experience with them though so maybe someone else can chime in if this is something they have experienced.

It's hot and humid in the summer. The storage bins of future "willow candy" are pushing out the air as they heat up. The sun starts going down. The fog starts rolling in and the temp drops. The bins start sucking moist air back in as the temp drops. At some point it condenses and drips into the "willow candy". Now we have wet material that will compost in the storage bin, even if pretty slowly.

Anyone experience this type of thing in theirs?

Either way, it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to adapt it to different environments.

J Katrak wrote:It's hot and humid in the summer.

I store my bucket system contents for a couple of weeks with the tight fitting bucket lids. The high today is 97, much more for the "real feel". The buckets do not release any smells. If they were, there would be flies hanging around. But the garbage can lids don't fit the same way as buckets. The more expensive ones have removable snap on lids so maybe that would help if the theory is correct.

One of the concerns in the hot and humid south is flies. They are able to squeeze into very small spaces.

Stupid question here but how much do we have to raise?

Ra Kenworth wrote:Stupid question here but how much do we have to raise?

In order to make the movie, we need ten more dollars.

I was about to fund another $10 but I guess we've made it!
That is wonderful news!