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wofati 0.8 - cooper cabin

 
Jesse Biggs
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Update!

This project started off calling this structure "wofati 0.8" and was later renamed to "Cooper Cabin."



It is currently about half done, but people have been living in it from august 2014 to present. Currently it is available for weekend or weekly rent here.



This structure features the rocket mass heater that is the primary build example in the book The Rocket Mass Heater Builder's Guide




---


Tim and I have been talking about the next wofati. He's asked me to draw some stuff up so we can work out the design. I think he said to go for 800 square feet for 0.8. So, of course, I went and made it twice that size.

Well, should be good enough for the first round of feedback anyway.

Here are the first images:
0.8I.jpg
model of skeletal framework for wofati
o.8II.jpg
model of skeletal framework for wofati top view
o.8III.jpg
model of skeletal framework for wofati view from back

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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... and a cross section & the working sketchup file
o.8section_through_hillside.jpg
model of skeletal framework for wofati - section through hillside
Filename: wofati-0.8.skp
File size: 254 Kbytes

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
R Scott
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What don't they like about the current one (other than the size)?

Do the posts bother them? Would changing the timber size and making the span a little bigger make it easier inside? Or are they not a problem and you should reduce the span so you can use smaller timber?

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would be neat to include dimensions or at least say the spacings--if that's 1600sq ft, 40 feet on a side posts are 8-12 ft apart?
 
Jesse Biggs
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R Scott wrote:What don't they like about the current one (other than the size)?

Do the posts bother them? Would changing the timber size and making the span a little bigger make it easier inside? Or are they not a problem and you should reduce the span so you can use smaller timber?



It's mostly the size. 400 sf just a little cramped in the middle of winter with 3 kids and all.

Tim's ok with the posts. Other than the size, the greatest concern is to streamline the building process. We've switched up a few details with the beams and how things will go together after that. More details to come as we work through things.

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Jesse Biggs
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bob day wrote:would be neat to include dimensions or at least say the spacings--if that's 1600sq ft, 40 feet on a side posts are 8-12 ft apart?



As we zero in on the actual design, I'll include more details like dimensions.

The stuff above is all on 10' centers.

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
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Jesse Biggs wrote:
It's mostly the size. 400 sf just a little cramped in the middle of winter with 3 kids and all.



Ya Think?!?! LOL

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R Scott wrote:

Jesse Biggs wrote:
It's mostly the size. 400 sf just a little cramped in the middle of winter with 3 kids and all.



Ya Think?!?! LOL



Lol... no i know its too small!
 
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I really like the look of that layout. Along the lines of what I want to do and where I already have a hole dug. Now I'm just trying to figure out where to get the dry dirt, since my hole was all rip-rap and was used to level out the road into where it was at, and make a nice shop sized landing.

I'm going to have to look into this sketchup doohickey.

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Ty Morrison
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So what are your assumptions about timber sizes and dead/live loads?

I know that it is earth fill for the roof and then snow on top of that, but for a 20 by 60 space you might be able to reduce the columns and beams?

I think you are using timber found on site for the main structure and it appears you are using 12 inch rounds at 10 foot centers.

The info in the attached document indicates that a 12 inch hemlock can span 20 feet with a uniform load of 290 pounds per foot at l/240 deflection.

From this link:
http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html
I am getting some cubic foot weights

I am thinking 2 feet of dirt and 3 feet of snow and 1/2 foot of timber roof deck is (95+ 95 + 45 + 45 +45 + 13 = 348) of course there is the tributive area thingy...

So the 10 foot centers seem conservative.

If you did the main roof deck in 12 inch timber, you could go with a 20 foot span and maybe 15 centers on columns to free up the interior space?

jus' thinkin'

wofati-0.8-option.png
model of skeletal framework for wofati with roofing
Filename: HCM-00752.pdf
File size: 1 megabytes
 
Ty Morrison
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I love the Wofati.

I'll bet this post gets some debate.

Carrying dialog from the first one to this discussion which seems to be more timely, I share from Post Frame Building lessons the following way to set a post in Missoula area to alleviate many of the concerns over contact with the earth that have been shared.

Minimum footing frost depth in Missoula is 42 inches: this is to avoid frost heave, which is very real. The hole needs to be bigger than the pole by three inches or more all the way around. The bottom of the hole should be soaked over night with some water, but not a lot. the next day when the water is gone and the dirt isn't sloppy, the bottom of the hole should be compacted with a tamper/pole to where it does not compact the dirt any more (bounces).

NFBA and USDA both indicate a big rock or concrete pad (4 x 8 x 8 solid cmu) be placed in the bottom of the excavation/hole. In the drawing this is below 42 inches just to be safe. Once the pole (no bark) has been set into the hole, crushed gravel (clean, no fines) is placed around the pole. The gravel is placed in lifts of about 4 to 6 inches and a 2x4 tamp is used to compact it into place while the pole is kept in alignment. Place gravel to the top.

DO NOT PUT CONCRETE AROUNd THE POLE...it will trap the water and cause rot.

I don't know how 'green' it is but painting the hidden part of the pole liberally with creosote is popular and has worked for railroad ties for a century or more.
Pole-footing.png
Pole footing.
 
Jesse Biggs
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Ty, I'm thinking the above method with black locust, sans creosote, might last a REALLY long time.

As for the load calculations, more like 3' of both soil and snow would be a safer figure.

In Mike Oehler's book he has some nice little drawings of how to work poles into built-in furniture and features. I think I might have been a bit sleep deprived when making the above model and have updated it since.

After a couple more back and forths with Tim this is our current design:

o.8IX.jpg
model 2 of skeletal framework for wofati
o.8XII.jpg
model of wofati with walls and roof
Filename: wofati-0.8.skp
File size: 2 megabytes

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
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...So what are your assumptions about timber sizes...



Tim's got me drawing the structural members w/ 12" diameters. The roof decks @10", and the walls w/ 6" logs.

A couple more images:
o.8XV.jpg
model of skeletal framework for wofati - overhead view
o.8XIII.jpg
side overhead view of 3D wofati model
o.8XIV.jpg
back or front overhead view of 3D wofati model

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Ty Morrison
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Yeah, baby!

That is definitely working.

Those loads are huge! That's probably why Hogans were octagonal and pretty small. Cotton wood is a lousy load bearing timber.

Have you looked at x bracing the perimeter posts to help with the roof load to ground transfer, or is it even a problem?

 
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Shipped these off to Tim a few days back... this is where we landed in our 0.8 design discussions:

wofati-0.8laminatedI.jpg
placement of veritcal posts in wofati
wofati-0.8laminatedII.jpg
placement of horizontal beams of wofati
wofati-0.8laminatedIII.jpg
walls of wofati

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
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...and 3 more...
wofati-0.8laminatedIV.jpg
wofati 0.8 laminated
wofati-0.8laminatedV.jpg
wofati 0.8 laminated V
wofati-0.8laminatedVI.jpg
wofati 0.8 laminated VI side view

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
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So, I get the earth sheltered part, but it seems that the loss of the solar-gain wall on the hillside slope is contrary to the Wofati principals. What is behind the notion of three sides buried?
 
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Ty Morrison wrote:So, I get the earth sheltered part, but it seems that the loss of the solar-gain wall on the hillside slope is contrary to the Wofati principals. What is behind the notion of three sides buried?



I've seen this question come up quite a bit. It's a common misconception that wofati design has anything to do with solar gain or passive solar design. Paul has gone on record stating that he wants to prove the design will work with no regard whatsoever to solar aspect or orientation whatsoever.

It's all about thermal inertia. Not pictured in any of the drawings here is the "umbrella". This detail is possibly the most important part to pulling off the no heating or cooling thing. Here's the idea in more detail: some of John Hait's stuff
 
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Ahh. Thanks for the clarification.

I thought the solar well was more for quality of life and light. No heating or cooling is very important too. I also am reminded that budget was a goal as well, $300?

Ok, so why the step at the back?

Kivas and Hogans were definitely Wofati predecessors.
 
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Kristie posted this pic a coupla days ago:



Last night somebody asked about hours to build and Tim replied:

I would have to say from the first log fell to when the umbrella is on that over 3,500 hours were/will be spent building 0.7. Many lessons were learned and I hope that 0.8 will take under 1,500 hours. And 0.8 is going to be 2x as big. I can imagine we can get it to about 1,000 in time. Log falling,skidding and pealing are a good 50% of this time.



At the same time, Tim said that if we have a pile of logs prepped, he thinks himself and one other (good) builder could build a 10x10 wofati in a weekend.

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Some photos from our work on Wofati 0.8 today:
IMG_6319.JPG
setting the largest log with the excavator
setting the largest log with the excavator
IMG_6323.JPG
we set 8 posts today:
we set 8 posts today:

Emily
crosscutsandcastirons.wordpress.com

 
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Lincoln logs for adults
lincoln-logs-for-adults.jpg
[Thumbnail for lincoln-logs-for-adults.jpg]
lincoln logs for adults

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My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
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My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
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Starting the first pin

pinning-the-log.jpg
[Thumbnail for pinning-the-log.jpg]
putting a pin in the first log

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Beam is in place. Getting pinned down.
wofati-beam.jpg
[Thumbnail for wofati-beam.jpg]
beam getting pins

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My books, movies, videos, podcasts, events ... the big collection of paul wheaton stuff!

 
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Thanks for sharing the pics, this is really exciting.
 
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The problem with long logs a narrow log arch and a sharp right hand turn
IMG_20140709_091347958.jpg
ATV troubles
 
R Scott
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Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark...

At least it didn't flip the UTV.

"You must be the change you want to see in the world." "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
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Jesse Biggs
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Hey Tim, those end connections are looking mighty fancy. I'm curious to know the "why" behind them. Looks like you are indeed going with no elevation changes. Looking like pros at this!

I think when you google "permie" there should be a picture of Tony in his hat and suspenders. He's nailing the look so hard right now!

some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
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We did the ends in a kinda shoulder nothch to help with dirt pressure pushing the poles out from under the beams.
 
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Looking good!
It seems like the logs are taller than the ones in the drawing. (e.g. back logs at 12 feet, middle logs at 8')

Is the idea to raise the finish floor a bit, or did the project outgrow the plans?

-Erica

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Erica Wisner
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Jesse Biggs wrote:...and 3 more...



I'm also curious about the broader wings in the back. will there be windows to a sort of light-well / back garden where the terraces are back there, or just a cavity space?
Is this back part designed to shed water off the main structure?

-Erica

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Erica, here's my understanding of the "back area":

There are 2 things going on there...

1) It is shown here as kind of an "uphill patio" as found in Mike Oehler's book. The idea being if you're building on the side of a hill, and the hill wants to "go visit the neighbors", you have this whole area as a buffer zone to that kind of activity.

2) Paul has added more of an overhang and the fancy "wing walls" to further protect the exterior bits of the wofati from the elements.

That's my version anyway.


some of what I'm up to: http://www.permies.com/t/34620/projects/acre

 
Cassie Langstraat
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A few pics of the inside of wofati 0.8.







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Jesse Grimes
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I just finished a bounty project on 0.8, facing the front wall to cover up the tarps and improve the outside appearance. I used some 3/8" by 4" lumber that was milled on Paul's mill. The front wall will eventually be covered in cob, so this facing will also give the cob something to stick to.
20150708_144915.jpg
Cooper Cabin front view

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Now accepting Gappers for the Permaculture Bike Park project.

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Biodegradable Bar Oil for my chainsaw. I'm gonna need a lot of this for milling lumber with my chainsaw mill.

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J Hymay
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Looking good Jesse! Too bad ya started on that the day I left =)
Scrolling up, it looks like new interior pics may be in order, since we pulled the walls out to open up the primary space in there.
 
Ty Morrison
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I want a shot from a drone!

How's about a whole fly around?

I want to see the rear side of the structure and berm - it looks different than the SU model.

I want to see more.

It looks like the space has been subdivided...that sort of plan view (Jesse's SU model depicts the concept, but it would be nice to see how the users are thinking of the space when they turnkey.

KEWEL!

 
I agree. Here's the link: https://woodheat.net
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