Hunting for survival

While I am not into prepping, I recently had a conversation with a Prepper that triggered some memories. He commented that in a shtf situation there would be people more ready to steal from him rather than go out and get a rabbit.

 In MN I spoke with an older gentleman who had lived through the Great Depression.  He told me of a time when he had tracked a deer through the snow for two days. Then a set of footprints from another hunter intersected his path. He realized the other hunter would reach the deer first, so he turned around and headed for home cold, tired, and hungry.

I remember the time in Illinois in the 1950s when getting a deer hunting permit was a huge thing.  Actually getting a deer was an even bigger challenge. Like MN during the depression, I suspect the deer were hunted to the point where finding one was a rarity.  Of course, it can take many years for the population to rebuild.

My point is that if one plans to rely on hunting to provide food in a time  of broad spread crisis, they may want to consider a plan B. There will be many others with similar intentions.  Getting a deer or a rabbit may not be as easy as it is now.

This brings up an interesting point.

I remember reading some Vermont history about how the Abenakis—and most indigenous groups—intentionally kept their populations at around one fourth of the land’s carrying capacity so that if they faced hardship they wouldn’t have to starve. And mostly it worked!

But there is also the element of caring for the land and not exploiting the land in horribly devastating ways. We have tested this earth to the breaking point and if things are extremely difficult then it’ll be no surprise.

M Ljin wrote:This brings up an interesting point.

I remember reading some Vermont history about how the Abenakis—and most indigenous groups—intentionally kept their populations at around one fourth of the land’s carrying capacity so that if they faced hardship they wouldn’t have to starve. And mostly it worked!

But there is also the element of caring for the land and not exploiting the land in horribly devastating ways. We have tested this earth to the breaking point and if things are extremely difficult then it’ll be no surprise.

That's super interesting, and makes so much sense! I assume that was one-quarter of the carrying capacity of the land when eating their preferred foods, rather than things considered "famine food"?

We do Wildlife Management so I am around a lot of hunters and have been for years.

When my first child way born, dear hubby brought me home from the hospital and he immediately took off on a hunting trip.

Hunting is a skill.  If folks want to hunt for survival now is the time to learn how to hunt.

I don't hunt though I have spent countless hours sitting in a deer stand waiting for a deer to happen to show up.

If you don't want to head for home cold, tired, and hungry, as in Johns story, then learn to read the signs and learn to hit something that you aim at. As I said earlier hunting is a skill.

John F Dean wrote:While I am not into prepping, I recently had a conversation with a Prepper that triggered some memories. He commented that in a shtf situation there would be people more ready to steal from him rather than go out and get a rabbit.

I think it's more complicated and very situationally dependent, but the guy has a point.

First, where I live, there are hunters, but they're a minority in the population - particularly any that do so often enough to have up-to-date skills.

Second, there are fat domestic/feral bunnies beside the highway every night, and around that whole area, but there's also a huge number of people. People with land would be further ahead to catch the rabbits and breed them, than just shoot and eat.

Third, this is why the better "Preppers" I've gotten info from, stress "community" rather than "hide from the world". A small group may be able to hide better, but the odds of a desperate group stealing is very high.

This is why I am interested in marginal/uncommon food plants - just as many people don't know how to hunt (including myself) many people don't know what a potato leaf looks like. They're even less likely to recognize one that's not in a "vegetable patch".  Let's just say that I like the concept of "stealth food". Unfortunately, until those hunters reduce the deer population, many things that I know are edible, and average people likely don't, the deer do! They are totally thieves!

If only modern humans were as smart and wise as the Abenakis. Where I am they are pushing for "more housing" and "more people" when they have no capacity to provide doctors for our current population, if a big earthquake hits, they won't have drinking water and it's much nastier to die of thirst than to starve to death according to everything I've read.

There is an economic/political theory known as "The Tragedy of the Commons". The idea is that individuals, working in their own self interest, will overexploit a finite shared resource to the detriment of all.

I think that folks imaging a situation where they have to survive aren't considering the pressures that others will put on surrounding resources. I believe hunting may be of some value, but I wouldn't want to put all of my eggs in one basket.

i think there are efficient enough rat- and mousetraps that a population in crisis would do well to remember that harvestable protein comes in smaller sizes that don’t necessitate as much neighborly competition.

greg mosser wrote:i think there are efficient enough rat- and mousetraps that a population in crisis would do well to remember that harvestable protein comes in smaller sizes that don’t necessitate as much neighborly competition.

And in urban areas, I'll add squirrel to that list - harder to trap, but can be baited and taken out with just a pellet gun.
I once counted over 50 squirrels visible from my father in law's dining room window - that density shocked me.

Timothy Norton wrote:There is an economic/political theory known as "The Tragedy of the Commons". The idea is that individuals, working in their own self interest, will overexploit a finite shared resource to the detriment of all.

I think that folks imaging a situation where they have to survive aren't considering the pressures that others will put on surrounding resources. I believe hunting may be of some value, but I wouldn't want to put all of my eggs in one basket.

I think this may be a necessary step we pass through… when the tragedy of the commons happens people will be forced to come together and create shared norms for the handling of the commons. It might be necessary to pass through a time of great suffering in order to get there though.

I once knew someone in school who described how the commons actually work back in Bulgaria where his grandfather lived. We were having a discussion about the tragedy of the commons and he offered an anecdote. His grandpa raised goats and took them to the commons to graze. Everyone else who raised animals took their animals to the commons too. And because of the shared norms and respect for one another it worked out perfectly fine.

We learn to respect other people’s boundaries when we understand what happens when those boundaries get broken and trampled over. Pain is a necessary threshold to pass through before we can live in a humble way in respect and reverence for all our relations—it is how we come to understand the consequences of our own actions. It’s just that modern humans don’t reach this stage for various reasons I will not talk about outside of cider press.

Hunting for survival can be done, but normally when things go sideways  everyone trys to go down the same path  at the same time.

Thus   hunting locations can be flooded with people who are not experience hunters   who are competing with you for those resources.

The approach I like to do is to go a different path,      raise your own meat at home and avoid the competition of hunting.      Even better have  of food stored for long term storage so you can wait out  dealing with those who are in panic mode to get supplies.

My first choice is canned meat or protein of your choice  beans, spirulina  on the shelf   stored for these emergencies.    This saves lots of stress as you will have the food to take you thru the event.

Next to that is long term raising your own protein    aquaponics,   chickens,  quail  on your own property.        As Viking preparedness likes to say your greatest danger after an event is  "people acting badly"      so if you can have your own food source you are far ahead of the game of those who hunt, unless you have a remote area that no one will be fighting you for.

Options,   give yourself more options,    I like to eat meat once a week, and the rest of the week I do variations on oatmeal, rice, beans which are easy to store.          

We are not all the same we have different diets, and skills.        I have built an engine that runs off charcoal, but I don't use it because gas is too cheap for me to compete with my time making charcoal,   but I have the skill just in case.

Jay Angler wrote: This is why I am interested in marginal/uncommon food plants - just as many people don't know how to hunt (including myself) many people don't know what a potato leaf looks like. They're even less likely to recognize one that's not in a "vegetable patch".  Let's just say that I like the concept of "stealth food". Unfortunately, until those hunters reduce the deer population, many things that I know are edible, and average people likely don't, the deer do! They are totally thieves!

The problem is the solution!

The ability and knowledge to preserve what you harvest is important too. Large game without a plan to preserve the excess is a terrible idea. You can easily go beyond jerky making your own capocollo , or culatello, sauages of all kinds with out a smoker.  I started watching YouTube "Two Guys and a Cooler" as I began my charcutier journey. Started with the full muscle recipes and slowly acquired the tools for sausage making. Still learning but a skill I want to perfect.

M Ljin wrote:

Jay Angler wrote: This is why I am interested in marginal/uncommon food plants - just as many people don't know how to hunt (including myself) many people don't know what a potato leaf looks like. They're even less likely to recognize one that's not in a "vegetable patch".  Let's just say that I like the concept of "stealth food". Unfortunately, until those hunters reduce the deer population, many things that I know are edible, and average people likely don't, the deer do! They are totally thieves!

The problem is the solution!

This is a prudent way to think...

Not wanting to hijack a hunting thread but planting edibles throughout the yard makes those items easily overlooked by passerby's.

Hi Mart,

In the same conversation I had with the gentleman from MN, he told me his hunting technique.  ….and I find it interesting that he sees hunting in terms of days.  Anyway, he would plant himself deep into dense woods with a few sandwiches and a few thermos’s of coffee and wait until the pressure from the other hunters drove the deer to him. This man was in his 80’s and knew how to get  food.  

John F Dean wrote:Hi Mart,

In the same conversation I had with the gentleman from MN, he told me his hunting technique.  ….and I find it interesting that he sees hunting in terms of days.  Anyway, he would plant himself deep into dense woods with a few sandwiches and a few thermos’s of coffee and wait until the pressure from the other hunters drove the deer to him. This man was in his 80’s and knew how to get  food.  

You can tell why he made it to the age he did ;-)