Getting comfrey to thrive

Hello.  I'm very very inexperienced.  

I understand some basics, including the need for nitrogen fixers and dynamic accumulators.

I started ~20 comfrey seeds in a grid planter until they sprouted, then transplanted them into the ground, since I am aware that comfrey requires a lot of below-ground space to acomodate the deep roots.

However, I have only one left alive after the summer.  It must be something I'm doing, since I'm of the understanding that comfrey is a weed that settles in and can spread without much intervention.  Instead, I'm struggling to keep just one of them alive.

Any and all advice is welcome!

It will probably help to get better responses if you tell us your climate area. Many places have had a pretty hot summer, so it may be that the seedlings died of drought. Although tough, they may need some help getting established.

I grew mine from root. I have lots and lots now. Won't stop popping up out of the ground everywhere. My chickens love the stuff.

Yeah seeds are a bit hit or miss with comfrey honestly. Root cuttings are much more reliable, even a tiny bit of root will shoot. If you can find anyone local with an established plant they'll usually give you a piece, they're pretty much impossible to kill once they're in.

Elanor Gardner wrote:I grew mine from root. I have lots and lots now. Won't stop popping up out of the ground everywhere. My chickens love the stuff.

One advantage of the root cuttings is that you can be more sure (if it is important) that you won't get a variety that will seed around, However I suspect this may not be an issue with S.J. by the sound of it!

S J you are not the only one who's managed to kill comfrey. Considering the weather we've had this year, my first guess would be insufficient water while it was getting established. Mine gets some supplemental water during our summer drought.

However, there is a difference between 'dead' and 'died back' - are you sure they won't pop up next spring? As Nancy wrote, knowing a bit more about your eco-system would help.

I do find they're a heavy feeder in my ecosystem also. The two spots I lost plants early on, had too high a ratio of rock to soil.

Now that I'm more experienced and was able to start with larger sections of root, my patches all put out a few fall leaves, so I know they're alive for now... the deer pressure has been huge this year, and once they discovered that comfrey was edible, they've been quite hard on it.  I may have to find a way to fence it.

Nancy Reading wrote:It will probably help to get better responses if you tell us your climate area. Many places have had a pretty hot summer, so it may be that the seedlings died of drought. Although tough, they may need some help getting established.

Yes. I live in the sierra nevada mountains between Sacramento and Tahoe.  We get 100+ degrees for a couple days a week in each summer.

I work full time so I can only water on my days off.  I assumed this was at least part of the problem, but wondered if there was something more to it.

Jay Angler wrote:S J you are not the only one who's managed to kill comfrey. Considering the weather we've had this year, my first guess would be insufficient water while it was getting established. Mine gets some supplemental water during our summer drought.

However, there is a difference between 'dead' and 'died back' - are you sure they won't pop up next spring? As Nancy wrote, knowing a bit more about your eco-system would help.

I do find they're a heavy feeder in my ecosystem also. The two spots I lost plants early on, had too high a ratio of rock to soil.

Now that I'm more experienced and was able to start with larger sections of root, my patches all put out a few fall leaves, so I know they're alive for now... the deer pressure has been huge this year, and once they discovered that comfrey was edible, they've been quite hard on it.  I may have to find a way to fence it.

Here's hoping they do come back.  I considered that they might, since they are supposedly quite virulent (mine are true, not Russian,) and I tended them as much as I could, given time constraints.  For that matter, I wonder if my Scarlet Runners might pop back up in the spring?  I have heard that they can under the f=right circumstance...

Elanor Gardner wrote:I grew mine from root. I have lots and lots now. Won't stop popping up out of the ground everywhere. My chickens love the stuff.

I will definitely ask around!

Have you read about Olla pots?

John upcycled material to make his: https://permies.com/t/224939/experiment-ollas

Old tech is sometimes the way to go. It might make a big difference when getting plants established. Ideally we then wean the plants off artificial irrigation, and find ways to infiltrate what natural rainfall occurs. However, I've seen how many tree babies die in their first 2 years of life in my ecosystem. If you can't plant 100 seeds to get 1 tree, giving babies a couple of years of help is the approach I would try next!

Elanor Gardner wrote:I grew mine from root. I have lots and lots now. Won't stop popping up out of the ground everywhere. My chickens love the stuff.

Talked to a guy a few days ago who is giving me some from root.  That should solve the proble,m!

Jay Angler wrote:Have you read about Olla pots?

John upcycled material to make his: https://permies.com/t/224939/experiment-ollas

Old tech is sometimes the way to go. It might make a big difference when getting plants established. Ideally we then wean the plants off artificial irrigation, and find ways to infiltrate what natural rainfall occurs. However, I've seen how many tree babies die in their first 2 years of life in my ecosystem. If you can't plant 100 seeds to get 1 tree, giving babies a couple of years of help is the approach I would try next!

This is incredible!   I will be making these in the future!  

S.J. Vallier wrote:
Yes. I live in the sierra nevada mountains between Sacramento and Tahoe.  We get 100+ degrees for a couple days a week in each summer.

I work full time so I can only water on my days off.  I assumed this was at least part of the problem, but wondered if there was something more to it.

Nice to have another permie from the area!

What kind of comfrey are you trying to grow?

Anne Miller wrote:What kind of comfrey are you trying to grow?

I'm assuming true comfrey?  It's from https://strictlymedicinalseeds.com/  It's the only kind I could find at local nurseries.

(I very very seldom shop online.)

I'm getting some from root from a local guy now however, whic I assume is also True Comfrey, since he says it spreads and is difficult to eradicate.

I considered Russian comfrey, but since I have space I decided I did not need a non-spreading variety.

I am specifically growing it for chop'n'dropping.  although the medicinal properties are a plus.  And the chicken feed uses.  (don't currently have chickens, had them some years ago, but as they died off I never replaced them.  I'm not too fond of eggs, but they can be used to barter... and I like french toast)

My goal is to use it for mulch in a food forest, made up of mostly apples, (empire and black thorn, with several unidentified ones that are yellow and slightly tart but not baking apples) but also including pears and plums.  I have already got the mature trees ringed with dafodils and have some type of wild sweet pea growing around the base of the most successful trees for nitrogen fixation.  I next plan on adding red clover, lupines and scarlet runner beans for groundcover and more nitrogen fixation.
Maybe add some chives as well?

Erika House wrote:

S.J. Vallier wrote:
Yes. I live in the sierra nevada mountains between Sacramento and Tahoe.  We get 100+ degrees for a couple days a week in each summer.

I work full time so I can only water on my days off.  I assumed this was at least part of the problem, but wondered if there was something more to it.

Nice to have another permie from the area!

There are a few of us!

I am doing the bocking 4 russian comfrey and while it is easy to kill while establishing cuttings it is incredibly durable otherwise and super easy to make cuttings to propagate.

C. Letellier wrote:I am doing the bocking 4 russian comfrey and while it is easy to kill while establishing cuttings it is incredibly durable otherwise and super easy to make cuttings to propagate.

I may try that too, if I cant get this variety to work.  Would you ever suggest trying to start them indoors?  I always assumed that this was a non-starter, since they need space for a deep taproot

You're not alone. Comfrey is famously tough once it's established, but the seedlings are surprisingly delicate. The usual losses with seed-grown plants come from:

- Planting out too small, then hitting summer heat and dry soil before the taproot is deep enough. Growing them on in pots until they're a good size, and planting out in spring or early autumn, helps a lot.
- Too little water in the first season. Once established they're drought tolerant, but not in year one.
- Slugs and snails, which love young comfrey.

Seed germination is also erratic, which is one reason most people propagate comfrey from root cuttings or crown divisions instead. A few pieces of root a couple of inches long, laid in moist soil, usually take reliably and grow away much faster than seedlings. Your one survivor will be big enough to divide in a year or two.

Hi S.J., you are not alone with this, and I had a similar start with comfrey. Seedlings are much fussier than the tough established plants everyone talks about, especially in a hot, dry summer.

What worked for me was switching to root cuttings instead of seed. I plant pieces about 4 to 6 inches long, with the top about 2 inches below the soil, and I keep that soil consistently moist for the first season. In your heat, I would water deeply two or three times a week rather than waiting until the soil dries out, and add 3 to 4 inches of mulch around, but not touching, the crown.

I also give new plants afternoon shade in their first summer. Once they have a deep root system, usually by the second year, they handle dry spells far better.

Do not give up on the ones that disappeared yet. Mine have died back above ground and then returned in spring, so mark the spots and watch for new shoots before digging them out.

Morgan Brooks wrote:Hi S.J., you are not alone with this, and I had a similar start with comfrey. Seedlings are much fussier than the tough established plants everyone talks about, especially in a hot, dry summer.

What worked for me was switching to root cuttings instead of seed. I plant pieces about 4 to 6 inches long, with the top about 2 inches below the soil, and I keep that soil consistently moist for the first season. In your heat, I would water deeply two or three times a week rather than waiting until the soil dries out, and add 3 to 4 inches of mulch around, but not touching, the crown.

I also give new plants afternoon shade in their first summer. Once they have a deep root system, usually by the second year, they handle dry spells far better.

Do not give up on the ones that disappeared yet. Mine have died back above ground and then returned in spring, so mark the spots and watch for new shoots before digging them out.

I am indeed switching to root cuttings.  I will be taking your advice.

With my seedlings, I kept them in pots for a couple weeks, (probably not long enough,) and watered extensively a few times a week, however temperatures get high where I live.  additonally, my soil is not very good yet.  (I'm new to this.)   once the seedlings were in the ground, they were next to yarrow, sage and apple trees, if that matters, I am not sure.  
I think I probably planted them too late, and the sun was a bit too hot for young plants.

I'll be putting in the root cuttings in the mid?-spring.  I tend to wait too long because I am worried about late snow.

I am going to be preparing a new area for cultivation, and I might be burying olla pots in that area, in addition to digging semicircular bunds and berms for water retention.   Should I put comfrey in that area, or put something else in as a first step?  I want it eventually to be a mixture of less water intensive shrubs and perhaps the three sisters as well.  Maybe including sunchokes and walking onions.

Thank you for the update, S.J., and I am glad you are switching to root cuttings. Mid-spring sounds sensible if late snow is a worry, just wait until the worst frost risk has passed and the soil has warmed a little. For your new area, comfrey can work well as an early step because its deep roots help build soil and its leaves make great mulch, but I would give it its own spot at the edge rather than right in the middle of your three sisters bed, since it is vigorous and persistent once established. With olla pots and bunds for water, plus mulch, it should settle much better than seedlings in hot sun. Sunchokes and walking onions also like room, so spacing them out now will save you trouble later.