hemp, cannabis, marijuana, weed, grass ...

This question came up again recently.

Question: If this plant is now legal where I live, can I talk about it on the main forums?

Answer: It is better if you don't.

There are lots of legal things - pesticides, herbicides, politicians, ethics, and pollution - that aren't allowed on the main forums because they don't fit with Paul's goals for this site.  

The cider press is a place where people who have earned the right to post there can talk about these hot button topics.

Reminder: this not the cider press.  This is a place to talk about how permies.com/forums works.  

Please keep the discussion of hemp, cannabis, marijuana, weed, grass, etc. in the cider press.

I am definitely not here to quibble, because quibbling is beneath me, and it's demeaning and mildly insulting to have strongly held legitimate opinions referred to in that manner.

The way the rules are being implemented makes it difficult to refer people on this site to the appropriate forum in which discussions on cannabis for medical purposes can be held. If I can't say, "Cannabis is also good for this medical application you're talking about, but for further details, we have to go to the Cider Press," how does anyone find the discussion, unless their only purpose is to discuss cannabis?

So I hope you'll forgive me my occasional slip-up. Because of the way the rules are being implemented, this sort of situation is bound to happen. I am happy to edit my posts, as always, to conform to the publishing standards, rigidly prohibitive thought they might seem at times when applied outside the context of being nice.

So instead of this scenario, how about we sketch out the specific language that can be used, in the context of referring people looking for help, to the appropriate Cider Press forum. Is it okay to drop a link to it, and refer to the subject matter obliquely as, "...another sometimes effective herbal remedy that may or may not be available/legal where you live...", or is there some other bit of code clean enough to use and still be informative as a signpost?

-CK

I'm not quite sure I'm understanding what you're asking.  

Discussion of cannabis is restricted to the cider press so we can keep the trolls out because we got fed up moderating it so much when every single thread eventually went off the rails. Such discussion is one of the reasons we created the cider press in the first place as it's such a troll-bait topic and it seemed likely to be a good way to keep them out.

There's never been an issue with posting a link to a cider press discussion as far as I'm aware - link away!

I suspect the issue is more like 'Please don't discuss cannabis and try to get away with it by calling it something else.' We tend to overlook a brief mention, but as soon as it starts to take three re-reads to figure out what on earth is going on, we tend to figure we have better things to do with our time and energy.

Chris Kott wrote:I am definitely not here to quibble, because quibbling is beneath me, and it's demeaning and mildly insulting to have strongly held legitimate opinions referred to in that manner.

The way the rules are being implemented make it difficult to refer people on this site to the appropriate forum in which discussions on cannabis for medical purposes can be held. If I can't say, "Cannabis is also good for this medical application you're talking about, but for further details, we have to go to the Cider Press," how does anyone find the discussion, unless their only purpose is to discuss cannabis?

So I hope you'll forgive me my occasional slip-up. Because of the way the rules are being implemented, this sort of situation is bound to happen. I am happy to edit my posts, as always, to conform to the publishing standards, rigidly prohibitive thought they might seem at times when applied outside the context of being nice.

So instead of this scenario, how about we sketch out the specific language that can be used, in the context of referring people looking for help, to the appropriate Cider Press forum. Is it okay to drop a link to it, and refer to the subject matter obliquely as, "...another sometimes effective herbal remedy that may or may not be available/legal where you live...", or is there some other bit of code clean enough to use and still be informative as a signpost?

-CK

Chris, The thread in question has a link to the ulcer factory discussion begun by the OP so no problem finding it.  
I think the rest of us had our posts deleted in order to limit it's mention in the original thread and thus discourage any more discussion there.  

I don't see any obfuscation as having happened, except where cannabis was referred to for purposes of qualifying the relevance of the link. Dancing around the word, as opposed to just using it and getting on with the discussion, made it more obtrusive, if anything. I wouldn't have had to clarify which "mystery herb" was being referenced in its own post, for instance.

As you are well aware, I applaud the publishing standards, and what is being done with the Cider Press in the realm of moderating with a view to allowing all reasoned discussion by those who have proven to be able to handle controversial topics, for the most part, most of the time. That doesn't mean that things don't go awry.

I also get that we are bound by operational realities. The fact that industrial hemp is legal at the federal level in the states doesn't keep flamewars about cannabis from cropping up every time hemp for fibre or forage is brought up; so discussions of all cannabis, for whatever purpose, is relegated to the Cider Press. That's inconvenient when having a discussion of the merits of different plant fibres in a historical context for painfully obvious reasons, but we survive it. It's certainly less inconvenient than having the entirely volunteer moderation staff here tied up at all hours with cannabis flame wars.

I don't see there to be an answer short of what's already being done, unfortunately. It just complicates already complicated discussion to not even be able to mention a whole genus.

I suppose there's no clear way to improve on my part. I will just continue to be careful, and to make edits as requested.

Thank you again, and have a great day.

-CK

Yes, it might have been better if I had said the word 'cannabis' although even if I had, posts would have still been removed if they responded.
...In my own muddled way I thought I was being perfectly clear

There's a great opportunity for discussion now in the ulcer factory that those with enough apples can participate in and everyone can read so in the end I don't see a problem?

In the end, there is neither problem nor solution; it's a procedural issue. And we just have to do the best we can, I guess, until the situation as a whole improves.

-CK

I'm pretty wore out on the topic.  

And when you allow the topic, then I think it will be just a few days until it is the only topic.  

There is all the rest of the internet to talk about pot, religion, politics, whatever.   I just need a place to talk about the stuff I'm interested in without it turning into a site to talk about pot, religion, politics or some other stuff I'm not interested in.  

I choose to draw a line.  And I get the impression there are one or two other people that really like that I draw this line.  If anybody else likes this line I have drawn, please upvote this post.

paul wheaton wrote:I'm pretty wore out on the topic.  

And when you allow the topic, then I think it will be just a few days until it is the only topic.  

There is all the rest of the internet to talk about pot, religion, politics, whatever.   I just need a place to talk about the stuff I'm interested in without it turning into a site to talk about pot, religion, politics or some other stuff I'm not interested in.  

I choose to draw a line.  And I get the impression there are one or two other people that really like that I draw this line.  If anybody else likes this line I have drawn, please upvote this post.

I get it. And in the end, the only opinion that matters is yours, Paul.

But the distinction being lost is between a horrible vice and an otherwise extremely useful, function-stacking, permacultural plant, that has a place at the table in a variety of spaces where you do show interest, like natural health remedies, fibre, bioremediation, carbon sequestration, and natural building, just to name a few.

And I was just trying to get a better handle on how to best communicate directions towards the appropriate forums, besides; I am not actually arguing the point.

I have already resolved to try and be more careful. I do apologise for any sensitivities I have trampled in trying to better communicate.

-CK

But the distinction being lost is between a horrible vice and an otherwise extremely useful, function-stacking, permacultural plant

Yup.

So when we talk about building soil and somebody says "hemp" my hackles go up.  Will this be the thousandth time I get to hear about the history of hemp in the united states?  And will that one mention lead to us having to delete hundreds of posts talking about politics and the medicinal properties of ...  

Everything you are asking for is perfectly reasonable.   And, at the same time, I'm sick of it.  

Take it to the cider press.  Easy peasy.

That's a really interesting point, growing stinging nettles rather than hemp to produce fiber, oils etc. Didn't think about the fact that there other alternatives that are completely legal.

The staff stumbled on another good example today, showing that we aren't ready to have hemp on the main forums.

I hope one day we could have this conversation on the main forums, but we're not yet ready.  

paul wheaton wrote:I'm pretty wore out on the topic.  

And when you allow the topic, then I think it will be just a few days until it is the only topic.  

There is all the rest of the internet to talk about pot, religion, politics, whatever.   I just need a place to talk about the stuff I'm interested in without it turning into a site to talk about pot, religion, politics or some other stuff I'm not interested in.  

I choose to draw a line.  And I get the impression there are one or two other people that really like that I draw this line.  If anybody else likes this line I have drawn, please upvote this post.

and then

paul wheaton wrote:

But the distinction being lost is between a horrible vice and an otherwise extremely useful, function-stacking, permacultural plant

Yup.

So when we talk about building soil and somebody says "hemp" my hackles go up.  Will this be the thousandth time I get to hear about the history of hemp in the united states?  And will that one mention lead to us having to delete hundreds of posts talking about politics and the medicinal properties of ...  

Everything you are asking for is perfectly reasonable.   And, at the same time, I'm sick of it.  

Take it to the cider press.  Easy peasy.

This.   I came to this thread to make sure that I said this.

Click on the thumbs up for this post if you agree with this.

I guess you guys are right, but of course from your perspective, you knew that.

And it wasn't even me this time!

Even after legalities are dealt with, it will likely remain a Cider Press topic, one you don't bring to the Thanksgiving table, right up there with religion and politics. I feel it's more a people problem than a facts problem, but others may hold different views.

Do you still do many deletions daily? I hope it isn't still a huge time hog.

-CK

Chris Kott wrote:
Do you still do many deletions daily? I hope it isn't still a huge time hog.

They happen in spurts.

It was much, much worse before we created the cider press. Once upon a time we allowed discussion, but it became apparent that every single thread eventually turned bad. Then we banned discussion of it altogether, then we created the cider press so it could be discussed by anyone who had proved their worth by earning enough apples and not being enough of a pain that someone on staff (who, me?) got pissed off enough to take all the apples away again. There have been times that I've got so annoyed with the time suck of moderating someone that I've taken every single one away to slow them down again.

One of the biggest problems is that it's been 'forbidden' for so long, that it has mythical status.  

Hemp is like any other plant, it grows well where it grows well, and where it doesn't grow well, it takes one heck of a lot of irrigation and other unsustainable supplements.  It's good for what it's good for, but it isn't good for everything.

It's going to be a long time before it loses that mythical status and until it does, there will be trolls, corporate trolls latching on to every slight little mention.  

For some reason, hemp brings out strong emotions in people and they forget themselves, stop being nice, and be snide, especially towards the volunteers who run this site.  Then there are the ones who scour the internet for every little mention so they can ... sigh.  

Anyway.  You've earned the privilege to post in the cider press.  Feel free to talk about it there.  

That makes sense. I'm sorry it's still necessary.

But the control measures appear to be working. Kudos to all mods. I know that I have been monomaniacal on the subject at times, but I definitely appreciate the outcomes.

-CK