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paul wheaton
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A couple of years ago somebody convinced me that it was important and worthwhile to make people aware of political and social justice issues. It is, after all, a big part of permaculture. So I created a forum where the idea was that people could post links (and maybe a sentence or two summary about the link) and no discussion.

But the temptation for discussion was too great and it just ended up as bait for hostile discussion. I removed the forum.

More recently a suggestion was made that our software could be modified so that the only people allowed to post would be those that have earned apples. Those people understand how we work and what "be nice" means. If posting were restricted to just these people, wouldn't it be amazing to see wholesome and decent discussion of these topics?

So the Cider Press was created. We'll see how things go.

I do want to warn people, these forums are a great place to lose your apples. If you have enough apples to post there, and your post is not nice, you will have apples taken away. This might be a good time to review my publishing standards.

 
Cj Sloane
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paul wheaton wrote:
I do want to warn people, these forums are a great place to lose your apples. If you have enough apples to post there, and your post is not nice, you will have apples taken away.[/url].

Interesting.
So will a post show that apples have been taken away? I think that'd be a good idea so people know what not to do, just like people can learn to emulate posts that have been granted an apple.
 
paul wheaton
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That software change has been requested, but it does not yet exist. As is, the apples just disappear.

Of course, the post would probably disappear also.

Sometimes there is a post that is really on the border of being removed and we have left the post. But I would really like to mark the post with "an apple core" to show that this is not the sort of thing we like to publish, but we are allowing it.

I think folks have been good at handing out apples, but they have been reluctant to take apples away.

 
Landon Sunrich
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I have pressed an olympian amount of cider in my day. Discussing things over cider is a time honored tradition. With all due respect I think going around grabbing other peoples apples when you don't like what they're saying isn't the way to go about things at all. How very unethical! I would instead suggest that we give them a Handle of Cider (you know the classic early colonial pottery ones)

One handle of cider and you know someone can get a little tipsy but is still going to be generally fun guy to be around
Two handles of cider is starting to get belligerent
Three handles of cider is a sloppy drunk who needs to be booted from the bar.

I like cider
 
Graham Bunting
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With all due respect, I know this is a private forum but restricting views and comments to people that have earned an apple smacks of elitism at best and as this is a political forum, probably a breach of people's first ammendment rights. I'm not usually a political minded person, but I like to think I have strong ethical views. If this post gets me banned, then so be it. I just felt compelled to express my view.
 
paul wheaton
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Graham Bunting wrote:With all due respect, I know this is a private forum but restricting views and comments to people that have earned an apple smacks of elitism at best and as this is a political forum, probably a breach of people's first ammendment rights. I'm not usually a political minded person, but I like to think I have strong ethical views. If this post gets me banned, then so be it. I just felt compelled to express my view.


It is elitism. And I am glad to be part of the elite. And it seems that what it takes to be part of the elite is: be an active healthy part of the overall community.

Free speech? I don't recall a gag being placed on anybody. Can you not utter, out loud, right now, "I like Pie!" Go ahead - say it. Shout it! Go down to the local laundramat and shout it. It seems that you still have all the free speech you did before.

What we have here is called "freedom of the press." And freedom of the press belongs to those that own one. I own this one. You can go and set up your own press anytime you want. Head on over to wordpress and set up a blog. It's free. And you can write anything about any topic you want.

In the cider press, we only publish the best stuff by the people that we have judged to be the best authors.

Oh, sure, we have other forums where we let anybody post. But only the best posts are allowed to remain - we delete anything that doesn't meet our publishing standards.


 
Graham Bunting
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I totally agree with you that this is your press and you have the right to say what is and what is not published. But to do it on the very forum that should have a balanced view from all sides is a little dangerous. Vetoing someones view because it doesn't agree with your own, or only letting in the people that have earned your apple because they say the things you want to hear, sounds more like a propaganda forum rather than a political or social discussion platform
 
paul wheaton
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Vetoing someones view because it doesn't agree with your own


So, you are alleging that within the cider press I have deleted something because I don't agree with it?

That is an extremely serious accusation. I hope you aren't just throwing accusations around willy nilly, but you have serious proof to go along with your serious accusation.

Since I have yet to delete anything from the cider press, and I have not heard of any of the staff deleting anything from the cider press, I suspect that you are just throwing around serious accusations with no substance.

I think you need to either provide the serious proof or offer a rather substantial apology.

 
paul wheaton
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I think a great thing about limiting a forum to people with four or more apples is that they probably have enough history with permies to know what is acceptable discussion and what is not. Such people will be respectful to the other people within the community - and would not dream of throwing around accusations, let alone suggest that anybody on permies is anything less than perfect.

So I am really beginning to think that the whole concept of limiting posts on sensitive topics to people that have proven that they have a certain level of decency - is a brilliant idea.
 
Graham Bunting
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I did not accuse you of anything, therefore I have nothing to apologize for. What I meant was if you have autocratic power over what can or cannot be posted in a political forum, then you can only expect people to eventually view that forum as unbalanced and biased.
There are a lot of decent people on Permies that don't post very often, but when they do, it is with respect and thoughtfulness. They might have something very meaningful to say about a subject, whether it be about compost or politics. But because they haven't got the prescribed amount of merit from you or the moderators, they are unable to add to the community.

If you have read any malice into my posts, then that was not my intent. I also think I have acted with respect and decency. If you disagree, then I respect your decision as owner of the forum.
 
paul wheaton
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Graham, I'm not sure if you are denying that you wrote this:

Vetoing someones view because it doesn't agree with your own


Or if you forgot (go look - your post is still there).

To make your point, you threw out an accusation. You suggested that i will delete someone's view because I don't agree with it. In relation to these cider press forums.

So you were presented with an opportunity to embrace your error and correct it or .... do what you did.

And while we are on the topic of me deleting somebody else's stuff just because i don't agree with it. I totally will do that. I don't want to publish somebody's nasty rant about how great GMOs are. They can go somewhere else to post that drivel. I created these forums to talk about the things i want to talk about with people that I think are cool and smart. In a large part because i was sick of trying to talk about cool stuff and getting shouted down by ignorant boobs in other forums. So these forums are HEAVILY moderated. SEVERELY moderated. Censorship is our motto (although we prefer the phrase "choosing to have high publishing standards"). There are many other web sites out there that are far more open to discussion - you might be happier there.

The size and quality of this community has a great deal to do with, I think, our strict publishing standards.

The Cider Press is a new attempt to allow discussion of topics that have been forbidden in the past due to them being flame bait.

 
Dale Hodgins
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I've received two private messages warning me about apple cores and other punishments. I guess these folks assume that for some unknown reason, some ill fate could befall me . I admit that soft targets within religion are something that I should ease up on (too easy and not much of a challenge), in order to maintain peace and harmony. I will continue to exercise caution around touchy subjects and individuals.

I hope none of this will be retroactive. I had some fun in this thread http://www.permies.com/t/27647/pp/God-welcomed-farm Until this one came up, I was unaware that talk of moderation was frowned upon. I assume it's OK here, since this thread is about a new forum and it's rules. From now on you will see an even more watered down version of my point of view.

Your humble servant --- Dale
 
Graham Bunting
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Paul, my statement was not meant as an accusation, but you have just admitted yourself that you will happily censor someone's post if it doesn't agree with your views. And you are completely within your rights to do so. My point is that if you have a political forum, then it should be a balanced platform where even people that you don't agree with can state their view in a respectful manner. Yes, certainly remove any disrespect and malice, but accept that there will be posts that don't conform to your way of thinking.

Imagine the governor of Montana joined Permies. Now he probably doesn't know much about the other areas of permaculture, but he's probably has a fair idea about politics and the effects on the other areas. Now according to your rule, he can't post in the politics forum because he hasn't yet earned enough apples, and it will probably take him a fair while to get them seeing as he doesn't know anything about green roofs or keeping goats.
Then at the same time a farmer from Virginia joins and he too has to earn his apples. Are you going to treat them both the same or are you going to try and get the governor his apples so he can make a useful contribution in the forum? The farmer might take exception to that. BTW, his name was Joel, and he too probably has a few good ideas.

There is an old adage concerning British pubs. If you don't want to get into a fight, don't talk about soccer, religion or politics. Maybe that should be the way with internet forums as well. Or maybe, everyone can
have the chance to contribute something as long as it is in a respectful manner.
 
David Livingston
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and why not as its his boat .
As someone who posts out in the wilderness on none permie type stuff under another name I find it quite refreshing. I just have to keep off threads containing words like homeopathy or biodynamics and I should be fine.
I was amused that the idea of freedom of the press came up as I have always seen this in practice as the freedom of the rich who own newspapers to push their agenda one thing about the internet is that it sometimes allows the little guy ( figuratively speaking ) to do the same. As someone who shares Pauls love of pies I am not that small.

David
 
paul wheaton
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My point is that if you have a political forum, then it should be ...


And now you just "should" on me. So rude.

Look Graham, be the change you want to see. Go create your own forums the way you think forums "should" be.

Frankly, I look at the way you are currently presenting your case and I am glad that you are restricted from posting to these forums. I find your style of communication disrespectful. Perhaps in a few hundred posts you'll have gotten the hang of things here and earned enough apples to post.

And finally, you have made it abundantly clear that you don't understand what I am trying to accomplish here. I would like to echo the words that I started this thread with:

A couple of years ago somebody convinced me that it was important and worthwhile to make people aware of political and social justice issues. It is, after all, a big part of permaculture. So I created a forum where the idea was that people could post links (and maybe a sentence or two summary about the link) and no discussion.

But the temptation for discussion was too great and it just ended up as bait for hostile discussion. I removed the forum.


So we allowed anybody to post and it was a failure.

Failure.

Failure.

Did you see the part about "failure"?

Did you see the part about how this new thing is an experiment?

The bottom line is that this forum (the tinkering forum) and this thread are about making folks aware of what is going on and giving people the opportunity to make suggestions. I find your words non-persuasive. In fact, I find your words to be evidence that this could be a great idea.
 
Jessica Gorton
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I'm just sad that most of the sub-forums now require 8 apples. I was all psyched that I finally got my four apples, went over to the cider press, worked up a salient and on topic (and nice ) response to something, and...clicking repeatedly on "post reply" did nothing! Poop!

Okay, off to try to harvest some apples, once I get the baby down for his nap. You keep doin' what you're doin', Paul. I like the tone here. And I've never noticed any censorship of ideas contrary to your own, as long as they've been written nicely, so I'm not sure what all the brouhaha is about.
 
Dale Hodgins
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Oooo. A president has been set. Jessica made some noise about not having the right apple count and one magically appeared. Now all of the kids will want one. I'll bet all manner of nicey nice will be exchanged until others reach 8 apples. Then the fur will fly. In boxing, a standing 8 count is bad. In the Apple Press (I'm surprised that Apple computers hasn't trademarked that for press releases or something) a box of 8 is good.

edit --- It's the Cider Press, not the Apple press. Which leads me to ponder this. Cider doesn't need to be pressed, since it is already liquid. Apples do need to be pressed if we are to have cider. They're all apple presses, unless pears are your thing...
 
Burra Maluca
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Dale Hodgins wrote:Oooo. A president has been set. Jessica made some noise about not having the right apple count and one magically appeared.

Ah, but it wasn't the fact that she made a noise about wanting apples that gave her one, it was the fact that she'd worked out that the way to get into the new cider press and post about stuff she can't post elsewhere is to concentrate on making good posts. Not only that, she posted to tell you all. Figuring something out and telling us all is the kind of thing that attracts apples.

There's a discussion here about apples which includes info on the sort of things that attract them. Though I admit they can be a bit random.
 
Tom Gauthier
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Just to clarify ... a cider press is for making cider. The source of the cider can be many things ... apples, pears, peaches, persimmons, etc.
Just as an oil press is for making oil regardless of the source (i.e. nuts, olives, seeds, etc.)

A cider press is indeed a cider press. )

Have a great day.

-Tom
 
bob day
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I thought this was going to be about pressing real apples, some new cheap efficient cider press

I don't think i have any apples (whatever they are and however you get them) and i doubt that i would be getting very political anyway, i thought this new forum was about social issues. I'm still just trying to get started, no/ few surpluses to give back yet

politics is almost always about personal agendas and right vs wrong, and by definition that seems to go against posting standards anyway

seems like there should be a place where people can talk about solving real social situations without getting into rhetoric and ego trips,,like talking about which ground cover to use for which application

some of the podcasts directly present the fact that going into any area, the first priority has to be a social one, getting the local population involved -otherwise the best permaculture system will get torn apart if the local population isn't involved and working with it

greening the planet is going to involve politics, but those politics will be guided by the people in local areas, not by our own egocentric beliefs of what "should" be or what is the "right" way

maybe for those of us who don't yet have a history there could be temporary privileges while we are earning our apples--how do you get apples anyway?
 
bob day
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oops, sorry, i just reread Paul's original post and saw that he mentioned social justice and politics as the themes of the new forum

maybe i got distracted into thinking how social issues and politics could work within permaculture systems, sort of like Willie Smits trying to set up local ownership and responsibility for the systems he tried to establish


 
Adam Moore
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I just wanted to say that I am enjoying reading the posts in the Cider Press. Great idea opening up controversial topics but only allowing proven members to chime in. The maturity is really evident in the articulate comments and questions. I wish the rest of the world was more like the Cider Press. Thank you Paul and to all the volunteers!
 
wayne stephen
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So far I would say the Cider Press is off to a good , surprisingly slow start . I thought with all that pent up hyperbole being "suppressed" on the main forums that the Cider Press would light up like a Christmas tree . We have Democrats , Libertarians , Anarchists discussing entitlements , politics and permaculture , food stamps , and the free market . We have Atheists and Agnostics assisting a Born Again Christian to link with other Christian permies . Uniformity of opinion is not something I am seeing there . What I do see is mature responsible permies who are able to cope with the fact that others may disagree with them . Open mindedness means even when you have a very strong unwavering opinion you are open to new data entering your brain and possibly even altering your worldview . I am an opinionated individual and I came to my stubborn opinions honestly and open mindedly . My view of religion and politics in middle age is polar opposite from that in my youth . I have to leave open the option that in 25 more years my world view may change . Hats off to those folks on permies.com who keep this site civil and constructive .
 
D. Logan
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It certainly makes me wish I had some apples to grind up! Been a few times I saw something on there I thought deserved a comment, but that I can't yet jump in on. I need to start saying things apple-worthy. I do think it is a smart move to make that section. It lets people talk about things they feel are connected and important without allowing it to run rampant. It also ensures only those with a bit of experience on the site are involved, which means it is more likely to stay civil.
 
paul wheaton
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paul wheaton wrote:That software change has been requested, but it does not yet exist. As is, the apples just disappear.

Of course, the post would probably disappear also.

Sometimes there is a post that is really on the border of being removed and we have left the post. But I would really like to mark the post with "an apple core" to show that this is not the sort of thing we like to publish, but we are allowing it.

I think folks have been good at handing out apples, but they have been reluctant to take apples away.


We've been seeing a lot of borderline posts lately. And we do not yet have the "apple core" function.

The staff want to spend time talking about permaculture and community growth - not debating over what is the best thing to do with a borderline post.

It seems that some people will post all sorts of stuff that rides the edge or crosses the line with the idea "Well, if it is too much, then it will get removed - no big deal." But to us, this results in more work for us to do.

After a lot of discussion, I think the staff is on board with taking more apples away. If an account has had a lot of posts removed in the past - that is a good candidate for losing apples.

And this is a reminder that we called the section "the cider press" for a very good reason - it is an excellent place to lose your apples.


 
John Polk
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We've been seeing a lot of borderline posts lately. And we do not yet have the "apple core" function.


We do, however have the ability to take apples away from people (even if they have no apples!).
In such a case, somebody would need to earn an apple to have zero apples.

Some of those borderline posts were on very old threads that had died a natural death because they were not very 'permie' to begin with. They were often on threads that today would have only been allowed in the Cider Press.

If you find an old thread that sounds like Cider Press material, think twice before you bump it back up.
It could cost you more than it is worth.

 
paul wheaton
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Somebody recently posted about a thread in the cider press:

Spend half an hour reading a thread and then want to reply but wait, I can't because I don't have an apple.


You would actually need several apples.

The whole thing seems kind of click like.


I think you mean "clique"? If so, then, yes, I suppose it is.

I mean if someone's new to permaculture and doesn't already have buddies on the site, then how are they ever going to get an apple?


The same way everybody does: helpful posts.

I'm not even from the PNW so I got nothin going for me.


I think the people with the most apples are not from the PNW.

I was wanting to reply to the homeschooling/permaculture thread .... my two cents on the matter is ....


And this is why your post was deleted. Cider press stuff must stay in the cider press. Posting cider press stuff outside of the cider press is a great way to lose apples, hence the name "cider press."

- - - -

I think by the time a person has racked up four apples, they have a good idea on how we do things here and they are ready to post stuff in a respectful manner. And by "respectful manner" I mean my interpretation, not somebody else's interpretation.
 
John Pollard
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I didn't realize I was being talked about down here.


I think you mean "clique"? If so, then, yes, I suppose it is.

From wiki:
In the social sciences, a clique (CanE, UK /ˈkliːk/ or US /ˈklɪk/) is a group of "persons who interact with each other more regularly and intensely than others in the same setting."[1] Interacting with cliques is part of normative social development regardless of gender, ethnicity, or popularity. Although cliques are most commonly studied during adolescence and middle childhood, they exist in all age groups.
See also
Main article: Adolescent cliques

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out. Now I'll have to research middle childhood. I've never heard the term and I have children.

And this is why your post was deleted. Cider press stuff must stay in the cider press. Posting cider press stuff outside of the cider press is a great way to lose apples, hence the name "cider press."

Ahh, I get it. I hadn't made the connection. Clever

So I assume cider press is the only section that has the apple requirement. There's a LOT of forums and sub forums here and I haven't browsed all of them.

Is there a set of rules and/or helpful hints for the forum somewhere? It would be helpful and I've never seen any. I think I just found it. http://www.permies.com/t/34193/tnk/permies-works-links-threads would be it. Is that correct? It would be nice if it were more prominently displayed for new folks to see. Perhaps a link to it during sign up. To be honest, I never visited "tinkering with this site" as I assumed it was a place for mods/admins to talk about changing settings or experimenting with things and that it was all the way at the bottom for that reason. I never imagined that guidelines for forum users would be there.
I'm not trying to start shit here. Just thinking it would save you and the mods from having to correct people.

I found the setting where one can hide forums. Sometimes I just click (not clique recent posts and look for things that are of interest possibly not paying attention to what section the thread is in. That's what happened with the thread about homeschooling. We homeschool our kids so I read it with interest and wanted to reply. I still don't see how it fits in social justice but I suppose maybe it was put there due to lack of a better spot. Since quite a few permie types homeschool, maybe a homeschooling section would be in order. (hey, now to me, that sounds like tinkering with this site)

 
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