new category: the cider press

We've seen some folks post and say

I wanted to say this in the cider press, but I don't have enough apples, so I'm gonna say it here instead

I need to point out that this is one of the best ways to lose what few apples you have so far.

The idea of the cider press was to have a place where people could respectfully and decently discuss sensitive topics. Things that could easily blow up. People that have earned a pile of apples did so because of their excellent communication skills.

Of course, this is "the cider press" - named so because it is a great place to lose all of your apples.

People who have the ability to remove apples could do it because they simply don't agree with your position. Ouch! I think that is pretty rare, but it could happen. Usually apples are taken away from things like being nasty to somebody or ....

posting cider press stuff outside the cider press!

I see I see. Interesting. I am glad you made that forum. I wanted to rant about the water committee we had made recently but I wasn't sure where to place such a thing. I felt it was permie relevant but not in any of the other forums. It was removed from where I had put it. Perhaps because I'd put the whole newspaper article. Anyway, a few more apples to go I suppose. Now to figure out the word "nice" as relates to this forum. Working for lawyers and being someone who isn't offended by much of anything I find my language is a bit too robust for the "nice" label here.

The short version: my publishing standards

The long version: Burra's detailed list of bits and bobs

Well, i can't speak for the diligent efforts behind the scenes, i'm not on here enough to see too much craziness. most of my posts have been on regular perm topics, and i never even wanted to be a part of the political forums, then they started making noises about putting a 42" fracked gas pipeline through the headwaters of my creek and a compressor station a couple miles away. I did see a bit of the corporate trolls over at survival podcast, pretty innocently posting about the pipeline when i wasn't supposed to post it because they classed it as political, but i didn't know they even had that policy at the time, figured those guys would understand corporate america walking all over property rights,

the interesting thing was, even with what i thought to be corporate troll(s) participating, nobody ever went off color, or got personally nasty, and there were over 1000 views when they finally took it down

when i think about fracking i would love to see the permaculture community take on these causes, push at the tipping point, but i also don't want to see our organizing centers become targets of corporate america, acting before they are truly strong enough to be effective . Cause here in this land of the free, if you become too effectively obnoxious to business as usual they find ways to take you down, as big as Permies and Survival Podcast are, they are still small time compared to Monsanto, Dow and Dominion etc

right now there is another big push to get letters to the Monongahela National Forest to stop the pipeline from going through there. and i mentioned it in a previous post in the cider press, but have been slow to take up the cry again, although at the same time i'm doubling down on getting ready for a pond and swales on my own property.

Reminds me that this is a program of doing good stuff, so while others are talking about no pipeline to the planning commission, i'm starting to use my 3 minutes a month to talk about permaculture. last time they let me go over by 30 seconds, i talked about greening the desert and a vision of the James River running steady and clear with no floods or droughts, and growing soil in a county famous for clay and rocks because they sold all their topsoil years ago.

I don't know how politics fits into all this, but i know i feel better when i'm not fighting with people.

I find the criteria for apples is incompatible with the mandate. People earn apples by submitting posts of value - whatever that means, but the idea is that the posters have decent manners. These are simply two 'non-overlapping magisteria' to quote S.J. Gould. Rude people can have valuable posts and decent people only questions. It would seem to make more sense that rude, confrontational types simply get warned, then banned - then the apples would make better cider. I like to participate in these discussions, but I'm not a perma-culture genius, so I doubt I'll ever 'earn' the apples. But I am an active member of the community - which is what the apples supposedly reflect.

Not to be critical, because I genuinely appreciate the desire to elevate the discussion to a more genteel tone. I have a strong distaste for typical internet aggression and name-calling, so I do respect the intent, but I feel the arrow hits a target it is not aiming for.

Kelly Mitchell wrote:Rude people can have valuable posts and decent people only questions.

A rude post will be removed regardless of how valuable the information. Good questions can earn apples. They reflect how well members contribute to the site, not how experienced they are.

Not to be critical ... but I feel the arrow hits a target it is not aiming for.

Seems to be working fine to me. The cider press is there for the use of members who have proved that they can contribute well and don't need much moderating, and we rarely have to moderate it.

Of course it's working well for those who have access. Of course, that is the opposite of my concern, which I believe was clearly stated. Contributing members do not get access unless someone 'decides' their question was especially good. Anyway, you completely read the opposite concern into my question of what I stated - it blocks contributing members. It doesn't matter how much people think it's a meritocracy if people who ask a lot of questions never get any apples. I've posted quite a few times and I don't think anybody has even thought of giving me an 'apple.'

The Cider Press system is only working for certain people - it's not for others. But, hey it's only a small part of the site, so it's not a big deal.

Kelly Mitchell wrote: it blocks contributing members.

The Cider Press was added for members who have proved they can contribute without taking up too much moderator time or doing too much shit-stirring.

So far you have posted 15 times, and haven't even earned a thumbs-up. And three of those posts have been to complain and have taken up a whole load of moderator time, demonstrating perfectly why it would probably not be a good idea to give you access to the cider press.

The Cider Press system is only working for certain people - it's not for others.

Exactly. So it is working.

Most sites that allow discussions on these topics end up attracting people that want to talk about those topics. We think we have created a space for other people to talk about those things. It has taken many iterations of trying things to get to this point. I think it is working out rather well.

People come and talk about permaculture for many months and then they wander over to the cider press to talk with their friends about these other topics.

One of my favorite parts is that it probably does a good job of keeping the corporate shills out.

Kelly Mitchell wrote:It doesn't matter how much people think it's a meritocracy if people who ask a lot of questions never get any apples. I've posted quite a few times and I don't think anybody has even thought of giving me an 'apple.'

The Cider Press system is only working for certain people - it's not for others. But, hey it's only a small part of the site, so it's not a big deal.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and interest with the permies.com site; however, I think you may find it useful to first read the Universal Welcome Thread to get an understanding of how the site works. I tried my best to condense everything I know about the website and its culture into one post.

If you are very interested in getting an apple, please read the following threads because they describe how to make better quality posts:
Making Better Posts
How To Win Books and Prizes
What Does The Apple Beside My Name Mean?

Simply making a post or asking a question is not necessarily sufficient to earn an apple. From what I understand it has to contribute to the community at permies in some form or another. A Thumbs Up is different from an apple in that it just means the post was good. An apple shows that the community appreciated your post. One way of doing this is by contributing information about your projects and seeking help through your project thread. Try starting your own thread in the Projects Subforum. I read that you have a 150 year old farm that you're trying to convert. That sounds like a good project.

I also suggest checking out the Guide to Getting Help on Projects thread because part of eventually running your own permaculture farm is taking the initiative to educate yourself. For YOU will be the one living there, and YOU will be the one running the place.

Education is the first step. If you need more help learning, please please purple mooseage me! I will be more than willing to help you! I'm reading Permaculture: A Designer's Manual right now, and it would be nice to have a reading companion to discuss it with. Just purple mooseage me, please!

EDIT: Also, Apples do not mean that you are an active member of the community; however, it does help to be active to earn apples.

Cj Sloane wrote:
So will a post show that apples have been taken away?

At the time this question was asked, the answer was "not yet". And now we have had this feature for about a year. You can see some posts that have "an apple core". There are a few posts that have more than one apple core.

Early on, there was a lot of discussion about whether we should have this feature at all. I suspect that in the time we have had it, I have doled out about 20 apple cores. And I think Burra may have doled out that many too.

It has been an excellent tool. And I am glad that we have a way to keep certain people from posting to the cider press due to core-worthy posts. And they can see it.

Sometimes a post should be deleted. Sometimes it should be put on probation. And sometimes the right thing to do is to leave it as is and give it an apple core.

In light of the bump, I have a question to ask any who might have the answer regarding Apple Cores.

paul wheaton wrote:You can see some posts that have "an apple core".  There are a few posts that have more than one apple core.

Early on, there was a lot of discussion about whether we should have this feature at all.   I suspect that in the time we have had it, I have doled out about 20 apple cores.  And I think Burra may have doled out that many too.  

It has been an excellent tool.   And I am glad that we have a way to keep certain people from posting to the cider press due to core-worthy posts.   And they can see it.  

Sometimes a post should be deleted.  Sometimes it should be put on probation.  And sometimes the right thing to do is to leave it as is and give it an apple core.

Has policy shifted to including some sort of notice about Apple Cores and the reason behind them?

I know I once received an apple core without explanation and I had no idea what was wrong with my post and why it bothered people. A simple Purple Moosage giving a brief explanation of what I did wrong would have been greatly appreciated.

I tell staff that if they delete a post or give out an apple core, to say nothing at all.   It just ends up with a long winded "explanation" of how the rules are wrong, the decision was wrong .... eventually ending with a detailed description of how I have poor hygiene, poor education, poor heritage ...  

If you submit something to a fancy magazine, they will write back and say that they decided to not use your submission.  The end. So I guess our path is a lot like that.

I find that when staff wants the poster to understand "why" they will often bump a thread that spells it out.

I was just now given an apple for my first post in this thread.  And it got me to thinking ...  wow, has it really been almost three years?  

I guess the whole apple (and apple core) system is working really well.  And the cider press is working well too.  

It seems like once a month somebody posts something on the forums that belongs in the cider press, but they don't have enough apples to post to the cider press, so their post is simply removed.  

For both the apples system and the apple core system, I have to say that when reading something I often look to see how many apples the author has.   If the author has a lot of apples, I tend to give their words more weight.  

When i am looking at comments on other sites, I find myself looking for apples, only to find there is no apple system there and I am frustrated, because if I try to say anything, my words have the exact same weight as batshit crazy fuckwits.

Some people are super frustrated because they just got here and they cannot post to the cider press.   This is further proof that the system is working perfectly.  Those folks are far more interested in talking about politics and the like than talking about permaculture.  The cider press is a place for people keen on permaculture to have a safe place to talk about non-permaculture stuff.  

Early in this thread, somebody accused this system of being "elitist".  It totally is.  People that are magnificent, decent, respectful and generous are put up on the high pedestal that they have earned, bit by bit.  Their words are now trusted.  People that are nasty, controlling, mean and trollish, tend to have few, if any, apples.  Their words are not trusted so much.  

Who would have ever thought that there would be a place on the internet that isn't ruled by trolls?

Thanks to whoever gave me that apple.  

While I love the apple idea, and the cider press, and the idea of apples being given for quality posts, one thing that I did notice as I became addicted [    ] to permies is that accumulating apples seems to be a somewhat geometric, or exponential thing.  The more I got, the more other people seem to give them to me.  And perhaps that is natural, since perhaps people pay more attention to those who are apple cumulative, and the moderators and apple givers can't read every post.  The problem is that I think it might be hard for a person to crack the threshold of gaining those initial apples to gain the 'prestige' or accolades that are necessary (which is how I felt for a short time)... and so this might seem a bit daunting to someone who is entering the site, especially since it may be just through lack of luck that a very high quality post was not read by a person who can give out apples.  Although it could be perceived as elitest, I think that the system mostly works fine the way it is, since the people who are dedicated not only to permaculture, but specifically to this site, are the ones who are posting quality posts regularly enough to get noticed.  The one thing that might help this, is that if a moderator was specifically designated to watch newcomers to see how they were doing, and to ensure that that threshhold was reached in the 'proper' time (proper meaning, the sooner the better so that a quality person is not discouraged by the time it is taking to get noticed).  That way, these people would not be lost to other sites, as they search for their place on the web.    

I think everyone has a different style for giving out apples.

For me, I would rather give apples to people who have a few or no apples, as a way of showing them, "hey, this is the kind of post we love.  Write more like this."

Then the person starts writing more and more apple worthy posts.  After about 10 apples, I raise the bar a little bit and only give apples to their most exceptional posts.  Once someone gets to 20 apples, it's even harder to get an apple out of me.  

That's the great thing about the apple system, it isn't like the thumbs up or like on other sites.  Many places, the more popular your post, the more likes you get, which makes more people see it, which means more likes... like a snowball down a mountain.  

Only a select few have earned the right to give out apples.  This makes apples a very different kind of thing to likes and thumbs.



One particularly awesome tool is the 'report' button.  If you see an apple worthy post, press the report button and say something like "this post deserves an apple because..."  It immediately brings it to the attention of the staff and they can check it out.

All of that is good to know.  Thanks for adding your own perspective.  R. Ranson.  

One particularly awesome tool is the 'report' button.  If you see an apple worthy post, press the report button and say something like "this post deserves an apple because..."  It immediately brings it to the attention of the staff and they can check it out.

I didn't think of using the report button for positive things... silly me.  Since 'be nice' is so important here.   Thanks again.

I use the (report)comment bit a lot when I run out of apples and I find another good one. I am hoping some day to get to where I get a bigger allotment of apples to hand out, some days I need a lot more... too bad I can't basket the ones I don't give out in a day for days I need extras!

The cider press is not a bad place nor is it punishment to have a thread put there.

The cider press is a privilege.  It means we value the contributors and the quality of the posts to give that thread a special home.  If it was just any new user posting about these subjects, the thread would softly and quietly vanish away.

But people who have earned enough apples to post in the cider press have proven themselves capable and worthy of talking about challenging topics in a nice way.


A reminder, however, discussing moderation decisions is limited to the Tinkering Forum.  If you notice a thread has moved to the cider press, THIS is the place to ask about it.

Got it.  My main concern with going to the cider press is not that it is punishment of some kind, but that it limits the amount of people who can post in the thread.  Many other topic threads have political policy associations, or have such issues with them:  humanure, building codes, and gray water come immediately to mind.  Seldom do I see these ending up in the cider press, despite having a policy element.  My understanding is that the cider press would be a place where discussions that were political in nature, and were potentially polarizing and becoming heated would best be moved to the cider press, not necessarily when a thread simply had a political element to it that wasn't really being focused on.  Maybe I've got that wrong.  If so, I will commence such threads in the cider press in the first place.  The purpose of the thread is to generate ideas on changing the forest.  I see that there are some elements to the discussion that are potentially contentious, and I do commend the staff for being on top of making these decisions.  Thanks for being there to do this, R Ranson, and for Dale for pointing it out.    

Sometimes posts start off not being cider press but then as the conversation develops whoops there you go . Threads are in many ways a living thing and I like that
David

A bump and a reminder as to why it's called the 'cider press'.

paul wheaton wrote:
I do want to warn people, these forums are a great place to lose your apples.   If you have enough apples to post there, and your post is not nice, you will have apples taken away.  This might be a good time to review my publishing standards.

Graham Bunting wrote:I totally agree with you that this is your press and you have the right to say what is and what is not published. But to do it on the very forum that should have a balanced view from all sides is a little dangerous. Vetoing someones view because it doesn't agree with your own, or only letting in the people that have earned your apple because they say the things you want to hear, sounds more like a propaganda forum rather than a political or social discussion platform

I think you did not get where you made a real mistake.... No veto for disagreeing! Where did you see this? There is a veto for whatever view, even concording with who-ever, that disrespect blindly another person.

This is stated very clearly: nobody is less than perfect, and the starting forum got sup-pressed because discussions derailed into fights!

Even being very frank and honest in your point of view, well you did not see the violence of saying something that is wrong: " Vetoing someones view because it doesn't agree with your own" How do you feel yourself whenever somebody repeats you, but with a distortion ?



I receive people at my home, and when they refuse my rules (and it can take so long to explain all the whys to a beginner or newcomer who does not know the place), I have now no problem to tell them "Go away!" Of course they think I am the bad person, I dared not shut up when they abuse me with their foreign knowledge.

Invading people all over the world and putting a foreign point of view on any local place: PERMACULTURE is the basis of reversing this. First look around and take time to understand, BEFORE you plant and move the ground! So, here, it is very wise to tell people they need to read and refrain from talking until they know what is DIFFERRENT.

Now that I understand how this works, I'd like to thank you for all the time and effort that you put into keeping this discussion board civil and focused!
If I may offer a few suggestions as a new member;
Something like a "golden apple" badge that gets attached to the top of any apple winning post, visible to all users as an example of quality content.
Almost all of the time I spend in the regular forums is reading threads about topics that I would've otherwise asked about. A lot of my questions  so far have already been answered somewhere on here, and I have a lot to learn through reading what's already been discussed.
I don't own any land to work with yet, so I have very limited ability to generate any new practical information about permaculture strategies or techniques. (Off topic but; A former about land use rights or land acquisition would be extremely helpful towards growing this community in the real world)
Another thing that could help with the "feeling excluded" aspect of the "Cider Press" could be limited posting ability for members with less than 4 apples. Maybe 1 reply to 1 topic a week pending moderation for 0-1 apple, and some incrimental increase as more apples are attained.
Through good conflict resolution skills, and proper etiquette, the "Cider Press" has potential to function as great place for new members in different life/property situations to earn some credibility.

As a reminder for everyone, the cider press is not a place for debate. We discuss things in a polite and civilized manner, even in the cider press.

Rules to keep in mind are:
-Be nice: this is the primary rule on permies; we do not allow anything that might suggest someone else on permies is less than perfect.
-Leave room for other people's ideas: please use "I think" in discussions and properly qualify statements.
-Science vs "Science": please let your discussions stand on their own merit rather than saying "I'm right, because I have a degree/title/etc"
-Safe Place For Gentle Souls: we are kind to everyone here, so be nice, please.