kids

I have a one year old. I thought strongly about going to live and help at Paul's farm. My intention in being there would be to move Paul's mission forward.
This is a special place and the things they are setting out to do and prove and teach are benefiting all people.
I hope he still allows children by the time we are ready to go out there and if he doesn't I would honor and understand that too. The mission is more important to me to have it get done than me being part of it.

That is so funny - feral kids, haha.
The first thing I think reading all this is, "where is the mother?" I guess I am old fashioned, but I think it is parents' responsibility for children. Yet, I am aware from trying to start a community myself that a few people seek community in hopes of dodging responsibility for their children. Some people EXPECT it. Yes, it takes an extended family or village to raise a child. However, you have to get the village organized first. and it is doubtful if there will ever be a village safe enough for an unsupervised toddler.
I know from experience it is possible to have a farm well organized enough to turn kids of elementary school age loose. They used to turn me and my cousins loose on my grandma's farm, and I was free to roam the mountains. However, they let us help when we were 8-9. They made it feel like a privilege to help the adults. We thought it was fun, because we got a picnic at mid day. They never made us kids work more than half a day. Usually it was too hot for adults to work after lunch too.
We really did help too. We were able to feed chickens and hogs, pick food in gardens, hoe, weed, set transplants, pick sucker shoots, pick strawberries, dig up potatoes, pluck chickens, feed ducks, carry hay to the horses, bring in the cows, milk cows, pick up apples.
By the time we were ten, we were riding out into the fields in the back of my uncle's trucks to help with field crops, and we thought it was all fun. On those days, the uncles supervised us setting out tobacco, weeding transplants, working in hay. On days we did not ride to the fields, the parents, aunts or grandma gave us "little" chores to do, like go get the eggs out of a hayloft..... go shuck corn.....carry in firewood.
Uncles and aunts both supervised us. However, NOBODY every just turned a toddler loose outside. That's crazy. It is just what it looks like: Irresponsibility.

There are three primary concerns about having children here that are mostly related to infrastructure that we don't have in place yet.

a. we do not have child safe, supervised space with age-appropriate toys/activities to keep children separate from hot ovens, computers, heavy equipment, tools and hammers swinging, pigs that get loose, etc.
b. we do not have the bandwidth to be interrupted by children
c. we do not have the bandwidth to clean up after children.

"Bandwidth" is my term for people, money, time, and space.

It sounds SO harsh to put it that bluntly. We have had people here who are used to letting their kids run, who are so used to the messes, interruptions and such that come with kids, that they truly don't notice when their kids are impacting other people. Not bad people by any means, just so much in kid mode that they don't always see that others are no longer in kid mode and/or that others might have different ideas about cleanliness and work flows.

It's lovely, even lyrical to teach children about cooking/hot ovens, about hammers and pigs, and to include them in a rich, learning environment. I get that and chose to parent that way myself. And yet that takes a LOT of time. Even with the most respectfully attentive parent, children are an impact on everyone around them. A child will want to show more than just their mom or dad the flower they picked. That's joyous. And, I would never like to tell a young person who is sharing with me to go away, nor would/could I ignore a child who fell down and hurt themselves. So, children end up being time consuming for non-family members even in the most ideal circumstances.

Here's a personal side note. There have been some times when some children here have had to suck it up and perhaps not have the attention I wish they could have due to our rather fast, focused pace. That pains me as much or more as it pains others to see animals standing knee-deep in their own crap. And yet I have too much to do to be more involved with children. Currently, I'm struggling to even get enough sleep at night.

We had some children here - the ones we're thinking of happened to be teens - who were a huge help, cleaned up after themselves and worked hard, side-by-side with the adults, helping to propel things forward. That was awesome.

We do have a goal of creating an area of the lab that is designated kid-friendly, where innovation can happen with children around. Though I have to say that we currently do not have an estimated timeline for when that section will be appropriate for children. Many, many other things need to be in place first.

We have people here who need heat and housing this winter. And workshops to put on. These are our priorities this first year on the land. Once we have designated kid space or resources, I imagine that we can be less harsh when talking about kids here.

Well said Jocelyn. It seems like no small job just to articulate to others how children effect life at your project. I think you did a good job.

I have three small kids that have been a part of the development of my farm, starting at birth. It is enormously consumptive of time, energy, and maybe most of all, focus. It is dangerous, something I am comfortable with for my kids on my farm; but I have never been comfortable with other people's kids enjoying the same risks and freedoms that my crew do. Even when other parents think they get it, I still am concerned with so many potential issues that they dont necesssarily even imagine. Finding a happy grey area, to me, seems like an excercies in making both parties unhappy. Over time, it seems like you guys are drifting more and more to a 'no kids now' philosophy, which I think is totally sound.

Best of luck with all the hard work ahead!

Thank you for taking the time to answer my post, since having children on my land is an issue that I think about constantly. I haven't seen much on line about people doing this, trying to incorporate children into the organization of a base camp. However, I had already decided, just from thinking about this, that I would not attempt to have people with children around me until I was sure there would be safety and security for the children.
And I have met people who sound like they have wonderful children and it is so tempting to just say, come on, live here, let's try working together on this. . . .
However, I realized, people with small children are not going to have time to work much at construction, roofing, plumbing etc., and that I am not going to have time to share child care if I am working. So in a perfect world, all the work ought to get done before the children come -- and if you are already living on the land with no finished shelters and food supplies etc., the work MUST get done!
It was hard to do, but I finally had to face up to my responsibility for infrastructure. Nobody is going to help me, and nobody with children are going to help me FOR SURE so the work falls upon me to do the work alone: The problem is not doing work, it's doing work alone. . .and so it is very tempting to take anybody into a community, people with children, just to have people around. When I accepted that I am responsible for kids, it was easier to turn down children. . . .for now.
I finally said no to children until I finish certain jobs. However, it can be liberating to think about how to include children in the wilds, because it gives you ideas for including people in general into a permaculture. For ex., I would never turn a kid loose in my apple orchard to pick strawberries due to inevitable copperheads. So I had a brainstorm, to plant bush berries along a barren road bank, so that people can stand on a clear road and pick the berries. And so I did. Then, when I got copperhead bit in my own garden, I decided, okay, you have to invent a very "clean, clear garden" where kids can see snakes! [Duh, no wonder people make clean gardens.]
I hope you all will report later how you solved the problems of the feral children! I long to have my own nieces and nephews come visit me, but not yet!

I think the big thing here is that the kids need to be trustworthy and somewhat predictable. Like Adam, I'm ok with my kids taking some risks, because I already know what they are capable of and how high the risk truly is. When we have other kids here, I'm always on the edge of my seat and overly protective of them.

Here's a good example:
I've got two kids; Three and five. They've grown up with chickens, pigs, electric fences, garden borders, biting stinging and poisonous bugs, rocks, dirt, sticks(sharp ones at times) and all the rest that comes with Homestead life. It's their "normal". They've learned to "read" a chicken and are aware of what's going on around them so they don't get a surprise peck. They know what plants they can eat and which ones are toxic. They know and obey the rules I've set forth about "wild harvesting". ( Just like Halloween candy: Dad checks it before you eat it) It's just second nature to them. So that's my kids and I let them pretty much run wild as long as they stay within ear shot and stay away from the road.

A few weeks ago we had family visiting from out of state. There was a 3 year old with them. They are not the farm type if you know what I mean. As one would expect, the little one was excited to see all the animals. AND as one would expect, he tried his best to harass them as best he could. He was just looking for a reaction from them I guess. Isn't that why kids bang on the glass at the zoo? So it was cute for a few minutes while my guard rooster watched this kid screaming at him "HEYYYYYY CHICKEN !!!" Over and over and over. Once the rooster had about enough of the screaming, I let the kid know that screaming at the chickens wasn't nice. I kinda was hoping that his mom or dad would get the point and stop him. NOPE! So then the kid's is still screaming and now the rooster is fluffing up and getting tall. I knew what was gonna happen next and made the executive decision to stop the kid from screaming. I didn't really yell at him but I used my "Dad Voice". I told him firmly that the rooster was gonna kick and bite him if he kept screaming and then demanded that he stop. Even my kids were like "Don't do that. He's( the rooster) gonna get you. Guess what happens when a kid doesn't trust you about the ferocity of a chicken? He keeps screaming... and... yup...the rooster shut him up fast. Didn't hurt him but batted him in the head with his wings. That got his parent's attention too.

My reaction: Huh... That chicken let you scream at him a lot longer than I thought he would. See why I told you to stop? Next time you'll trust me.
For the rest of the visit he kept pointing at the rooster saying " I'm quiet now chicken. ok?" It was hilarious!

This lifestyle has a hard learning curve and some kids (or parents) just aren't ready for it. That being said, some farms aren't yet ready for kids and I think it's honorable to be straightforward about your policies and expectations.
Well put Jocelyn. Very honest and respectful. I hope that some day kids will be part of the landscape there. They are probably responsible for more good ideas than the world gives them credit for. That is a huge asset to the permaculture -I hesitate to say- movement. It would seem strange to have a community with no kids.

This is why I'm not at Paul's farm now- my twins are 3! And the baby is 3 months and the big kids are 12 and 14.

We have a farm to run and lots of people and animals whose needs have to be met, I have no time to clean jam off couches. Thus, eating happens only at the table. Grownups and kids. The twins knew this from the beginning.

My point is, rules (norms, if you like that word better) head off trouble. you need to develop clear guidelines for parents before they set foot on the place. (Constant supervision, teaching respect and work ethic etc) If there is no time to spend on this task now, consider this an early child-free stage of the design process. As a former nanny and preschool teacher I am confident that parents are too sensitive about their children to hear criticism after the fact when they didn't know the clear expectations, and also I know that children will gum up any works unless the ship they are on is run tight tight tight.

Children should not be bored on a farm! A shovel and a place to dig will occupy them for a month. Pour water in the hole, there's another month. Children should be indoors as little as possible. To sleep and maybe to eat. All this can and must be part of the long term design of the property, as others have mentioned. Children are a fact. Child pressure is a factor I include in my design just like deer pressure or wind.

But maybe it's too early in the design process to focus on that yet. Sounds like it.

Yes, I am planning for "child pressure", and it is making me a better planner.
I think what you say is true for anybody in a community and not just kids: Adults without children as well as those WITH kids need a clear sense of what is expected in any community they join. This is not destructive of idealism, it is just good communication.
One reason I am not ready to have a whole community yet, is that I DON'T have everything clear and on paper. I do have a written plan, but it is nowhere near complete.
I hate to keep harping on this, but there has to be a written plan. If you doubt this, just read Diana Christian's book, Creating a Life Together.
You are right, kids are no problem to entertain outside at all
I used to have 3 or 4 children at a time living in various houses on my farm, but that was back when I had everything in perfect repair, and the fields mowed and safe as could be expected. However, that was BD (before drugs). A couple people on drugs destroyed everything that had taken me my whole life to build up. When I got rid of them, I let my houses sit empty for ten years. I am only just now trying to think about having other people live close to me again!
But I love children, and we have more little ones in my family now. Meanwhile, my farm is all grown up, rattlesnakes on the back steps, etc., so it is Imperative I clean up the place before having even my own nieces and nephews come here again. I daydream about having children around actually. I get along with them really well, and I hope Someday to have children gardening and doing wildlife projects on my farm. I want to have theatre and storytelling workshops too.
I thought the story about the jam was funny. Did you train your child to do this? (: )
However, the story makes a point: How to create a permaculture that kids fit into??? I just decided not to have any velveteen cushions, hahahaha.

As much as I love kids, I don't accept wwoofers with kids. It's just not worth it. We've got too much work to do and kids slow you down. Maybe it seems mean and heartless not to accept kids because mine are running all around but I know mine are trained farm kids.

I can see that, if you have a big working farm where you get your income from the farm and must get a harvest to survive financially. I am on social security, so I don't have to make money off the land or hire Wwoofers to produce big crops. I want to have a farm I can live on again, like it used to be, and have local kids come here and learn there is more to land than growing pot. My desire to have a children's farm is connected to my desire to do something to rid my community of drug influences. I think we ought to encourage our children to FEED THE ADULTS, like the Indians taught. If you go to Cherokee NC you will see teenagers raising gardens to feed the adults. It makes them feel useful. My Austrian grandparents had the same attitude: Children who learn to help out in the garden and kitchen grow up proud that they can take care of other people. Us white americans are so "self"-ish. We need to over-correct our tendency to be self centered.

Thanks so much for all the supportive comments and understanding.

Adam Klaus wrote:Over time, it seems like you guys are drifting more and more to a 'no kids now' philosophy, which I think is totally sound.

I do want to clarify that I'm not trying to say 'no kids now.' I'm trying to express that having kids here is not optimal yet--for the kids themselves! And I was trying to clarify how kids impact those of us without kids (my kids are grown). This is a difficult thing to express and for some people to see - as others presented examples about, too.

I guess I'm saying that in my opinion, any kids coming here, especially the littlest ones, would need some pretty intense support from an accompanying adult to be safe, happy and respectful of everyone else.

I think kids of any age can be a great addition. Now and in the future. I just think that right now with all that we are trying to accomplish, the parents need to be respectful of our mission and our work. This is going to be different from visiting somebody else's house or just living day-to-day in their own home.

If having kids here moves our mission forward, that is excellent.

If having kids here does not hinder our mission, that's fine.

If having kids here impedes our mission, that's not okay. And this seems to come mostly from unsupervised kids.

I spent the night imagining good design that incorporates child pressure. I realized that the system we use at our preschool resembles a paddock system! There are child traps (swings, digging places, climbing trees) and sturdy fences separating the different yards. Sometimes we would let them free range under supervision. Ha! We teach them how to recognize wild edibles and they do browse. Sheep sorrel is always popular and nobody eats more Russian olives than the children.

It's true that equally sharing kid wrangling among the parents is not a good plan. Caring for children in a dangerous environment means you have to be skilled like a good herding or livestock guardian dog. We have mountain lions and big coyotes here that would kill and eat a baby, and so would a big pig. Broken glass, deer ticks, ladders, a pool, a pond...it's no joke.

The reason I don't take wwoofers with children is partly worrying about the safety of the children and the damage they do, partly worrying about the effect on the work of the adults and partly feeding extra people who don't work. Some kids might eat less but each of my 3 year old twins eats as much as I do.

This is a fun aspect of design, and now you've got me considering including habitat for city children in my design. Is there much in permaculture literature about designing systems and areas with children in mind? I haven't seen it but there's a lot I don't know. If we want to make this thing truly sustainable this will be key and I'd like to become an expert. A bunch of graying geezers alone on awesome food forests is a sad story.

For now, no strangers' kids for me still. I'm in the early stages of a long term design, like you.

Thanks for bringing this up, it's really got me thinking.

Hey Craig, you've got a good rooster there--that's one to keep! It reminds me of a story about a "dog bite" in a book by Brian Kilcommons. He asked what the toddler was doing: "Jamming a pencil into the Doberman's ear," and what was the damage to the kid "Red marks on the forehead and under the chin." He said "That dog had the kid's entire head in his mouth and he did no damage--you've got a good dog there!" A good dog is in control of what he does with his teeth, and I guess I could say a good rooster is in control of how much damage he does as well. Little kids are SO easy to damage--their skin tears much more easily than adult skin. (It also heals much faster, but I digress.)

I will report that I visited Paul's farm briefly (three nights and two days) as we travelled from Wisconsin to Oregon, and I had my daughters (ages 7 & 10) with me. We had a lovely time and the girls really want to go back. Paul is great with kids and he taught us all a new card game (learned from Jocelyn's family) on the third night when we were the only guests around. I mostly kept myself busy in the kitchen (as the kitchen commander hadn't arrived yet, and I like to cook) and I'm pretty sure the girls stayed out of trouble! They played with Paul's nephews and niece, gathered interesting rocks, and enjoyed some kid's books that were in the base camp house. Of course, school age kids can be given direction and reasonably expected to follow rules. I was always within earshot, and my kids are old enough to come to me first with any questions or concerns, if so coached (and they were coached).

If there are two or more adults accompanying children, especially the younger yet mobile children, I'd say it's simply a matter of organization and expectations. Don't expect anybody else to pick up after your kids or look after your kids and figure out who is on "kid duty" at any given moment. Pretend you are at your Aunt Lucy's home, the one who likes things tidy, and be considerate. Same rules as always, really:

Be nice.

That said, I don't think our personal experience is very pertinent, as we were just transient and being very graciously hosted because (I was told) I had "helped with the empire" by summarizing podcasts and helping to publicize the RMH kickstarter. If we were planning to be there long term I'm guessing we would have been out at the lab full time and working hard on shelter for the winter. The kid issues are different out there--more of the life-and-death variety. In the long term there will need to be conscious design for little ones, but right now the priorities are things like establishing shelter for year round residents (animal and human) and preparing for the workshops (which will help support the project).

This is really interesting to me, because I haven't met anybody else thinking about the issue of children in permaculture experiments, especially projects in wild places. I don't get much inspiration off YouTube from the "children's gardens" sites either. I have started looking at Internet sources on alternative schools, like Montessori and Waldorf schools, to get ideas.
I don't know ANYBODY thinking about what I am trying to do either, which is incorporate children into a truly wild Appalachian mountain environment in a safe way!. Children can no longer run wild in the mountains here due to the spreading lion and bobcat population; not to mention, coyotes.
I think there will have to be structured ways of having visitors' children play. Resident children may have to play in packs.
Yes, children will definitely make you re-think permaculture plans. One idea I had was to put wee houses in a circle, a BIG circle with several acres in between, and garden trellises connecting the houses. Then we could have a safe zone in the middle for both gardens and children. I figured, if I set this "colony" of people in the center of the hollow, the elk and deer and lions could still run up and down the flanking ridges. They run the ridges anyway here, but sometimes cut right through the yard.
I am afraid children will be the last thing I bring to my farm.
Goldfish pond, definitely!!! I have wild fish already, but people have always kept goldfish here, and they are fun.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:There are three primary concerns about having children here that are mostly related to infrastructure that we don't have in place yet.

a. we do not have child safe, supervised space with age-appropriate toys/activities to keep children separate from hot ovens, computers, heavy equipment, tools and hammers swinging, pigs that get loose, etc.
b. we do not have the bandwidth to be interrupted by children
c. we do not have the bandwidth to clean up after children.

"Bandwidth" is my term for people, money, time, and space.

<strong opinion>

I'm not there... but my armchair response is "make the time". Children are important. I had thought the project was based in life as it was (or imagined to be) before the"white man" came. Children were a part of that probably much more integral than anyone in modern culture can imagine.

Children should not be only the parent's responsibility. Everyone is an aunt, uncle or gran. The brother and sister part may not work at this point, but at least be working towards cousin(hood). I personally don't see perma-anything without it.

I first saw this in real life with a group of Filipino people. I am not talking about related people, just friends. But all adults were "Tita or Tito" to any children. Our child of less than a year was looked after by what teens were there, the diaper bag vanishing and reappearing as needed. And it was not forced, but cheerful.

I am not saying Paul should give up his dictatorship. It needs to be there and be strong. I agree with his stated reasons for doing things that way and can think of a few more.

However, anyone who is not willing to be at least somewhat responsible for everyone's child has missed permaculture. It is worth taking the time to help a child help, even if it means things move slower.

</strong opinion>

That is just my opinion and yes it is very strong. I have noticed lots of pictures of children helping out too. So the reality is perhaps not as one sided as some of these posts appear to me... obviously I am at the opposite end of things and expect that the chances of things being run that way are minimal (and I am actually OK with that). I will be very interested to read about the first child born into the project and what changes that brings to how people think of children. I suspect such a child will feel much more like everyone's child than those who came in already there. I hope the community "adopts" all of them in time.

my armchair response is "make the time". Children are important.

If that is the case, then no children are allowed. None. Zip. The end. Period.

Children will have to get the extended nurturing that they need elsewhere.

We had a one year old here last week. It worked out splendidly. They had this ingredient that i call "the-parents-give-a-shit". They cared for their kid so much that the child was under constants watch by ..... the parents. A side effect was that the child never did anything disrespectful to the house, any people or any property. Everybody that wanted to interact, could, and did. Project progress was never impeded.

I think "it takes a village" is going to be great when we have a village. And the village is open to that sort of thing.

paul wheaton wrote:

my armchair response is "make the time". Children are important.

If that is the case, then no children are allowed. None. Zip. The end. Period.

your place, that is acceptable as well. But glad you added:

We had a one year old here last week. It worked out splendidly. They had this ingredient that i call "the-parents-give-a-shit". They cared for their kid so much that the child was under constants watch by ..... the parents. A side effect was that the child never did anything disrespectful to the house, any people or any property. Everybody that wanted to interact, could, and did. Project progress was never impeded.

I guess I assumed as much. If the parents can't take care of their kids, they probably aren't going to take care about much else themselves. Including the work needed to make the project work. So measuring people by how they deal with their kids (and how their kids deal with others) makes good sense.

It was the " kids should be as if they are not there" that seemed off to me. I have probably misinterpreted. Perhaps there is also an unwritten (or maybe written) rule that says one adult doesn't have to form any kind of relationship with anyone they don't like. In which case the children are not being treated any differently than an adult. It would seem each adult would have to at least get along with you (I think that is written even), so asking that you be able to "get along" with any child makes sense too.

I think "it takes a village" is going to be great when we have a village. And the village is open to that sort of thing.

That probably answers my thoughts better than any. I personally think the village will come sooner than imagined. But I ain't pushin' it.

Thank you for your quick and well thought out reply (if you meant it to be that way or not).

I think that you should decide if you want children on the farm to begin with - and if your answer is yes, then you should decide how.

I think that our most important task as permaculturalists is to teach the next generations that which we did not learn in school (it is one of the reasons I homeschool). But that is my opinion and I take full responsibility for by building my own - family centred - permaculture centre. If other people wants a place that is more centred on calm and meditation or uninterupted work - then maybe kids should not be there. I personally would hate the idea of a kids-reservation on a farm, because I think that the disconnection between real work and the lives of our children is everything that is wrong with our world today and it makes kids grow up without knowing the meaning of responsibility. But if I knew in advance, I'd either not go or send my kids to my moms place. If it is not my place, it is not my rules, and I have to either respect it or stay away.

Kids can easily be incorporated into permaculture work, but some one needs to look after them when they get tired of it. And it should be clear that if there is no designated someone on the farm, that someone needs to be a parent. This means that parents of little ones might not pull the same weight as others, this need to be agreed up-on an not seen as freeloading. Otherwise, parents with little ones can't go.

On our farm all work is voluntary for kids being brought there without their own consent This also means that when kids are old enough to have an oppinion (12-13 years old) - they need to pull their own weight or not be there. Before that the parents will be expected to clean up after their kids (or we will have to charge them more to hire someone to do it) if the kids don't clean up after them selves.

I myself is very very leaned back with respect to child raising, but my kids have to follow the rules of whomever we visit - just like I do. I have choosen to have kids, it is my responsibility to look after them, it is my responsibility to love them unconditionally - not anybody elses.

You have every right to say that you have done yours and don't want little kids around or don't want responsibility for them at this stage in your life - just make it clear up front so people know what to expect.

R Scott wrote:Maybe you need penalty cards, like in soccer. Three yellow cards and they are gone.

I like that!

I think the most important thing is to make sure the rules and expectations are clear from the beginning. Have guests sign a copy of them when they check in, and make sure they have a copy for themselves too, so they can refer back to them.

When we went camping last summer, we got a new set of rules at every new campground. I always read them, skimming to find what really mattered to us. What are the swimming hours? Can we fish? Can we pan for gold? (No luck on that last one, by the way!)

I learned how to "police" a campsite when I was little, camping with my parents. Our campsite may have been a bit messy at times while we were there, but we always left it neater than it was when we arrived.

As for who watches, the kids, I think the rule should be that kids under a certain age (younger than eight seems about right to me) must be under constant supervision. Who does the supervising should always be up to the parents. If they want to arrange some sort of community day care, fine, but that shouldn't be mandatory because it's likely that not every parent will agree about who is qualified and trustworthy enough to watch their kids.

Bethanny Parker wrote:
I think the most important thing is to make sure the rules and expectations are clear from the beginning. Have guests sign a copy of them when they check in, and make sure they have a copy for themselves too, so they can refer back to them.

We ask that people read this thread before thinking about bringing children here. I can't imagine Paul wanting a rules document or any signed paperwork.

It's great that you try to leave a place in better shape than how you found it, and that you agree that children should be supervised under a certain age. I think the problems we've all experienced occur with people who "forget" or don't think certain requests apply to them or their kids. Even if they have said, written or signed a document saying they will follow the rules. This is where Paul's style of community can be simpler - folks who don't get it can be asked to leave.

As Paul mentioned above, we have been building up good experiences, too, where children have not been an unreasonable impact on the rest of us.

Now that we have changed the way we do most things, kids are not the problem they once were. We no longer feed gappers or their kids. Tool burn is nearly eliminated.

In fact, we are now encouraging families with the peanut village project.

https://permies.com/t/46445/labs/peanut-village

I'm going to close this thread and direct further questions about gappers with kids to the peanut village project.