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Rocket Stove w cast riser...  RSS feed

 
Posts: 61
Location: Nyack, NY
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Hi again - I forgot to ask - Satamax: What is a plunger tube?
 
Kevin Prata
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Simple drawing with feed tube on the left, riser in the center, and the bell on the right side. Charlie showed something similar with firebrick at donkey.proboards.com.

Please forgive the rudimentary drawing. This is about the limit of whatever I know how to do with Powerpoint in a short period of time this morning.

The barrel over the riser is 25 inches high; the riser might be 22-24 inches high. The bell might be 17 inches high. And the bell feeds rock or brick mass wrapped around the setup in the footprint of the hearth. In this drawing I'm not using the firebox; I don't know how to use it. Besides, right now the firebox has a gas line and I don't want to mess with that too much right now.

Later!

bell-drawing-outside-fireplace.JPG
[Thumbnail for bell-drawing-outside-fireplace.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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Maybe I can use these for something.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
gardener
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Location: Southern alps, on the French side of the french /italian border 5000ft high Southern alpine climate.
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Chim chiminey, chim chiminey!

Godunov for you guys?
chimneybell.jpg
[Thumbnail for chimneybell.jpg]
Filename: chimneybell.skp
File size: 389 Kbytes
 
Kevin Prata
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Okie dokie that looks interesting! I will download the sketchup file and take a look-see. Thanks very much!

In the meantime, this arrived today. Fiberglass strand, 1/4"....

Just so you see I have my priorities in order, see what is in the background there to the left
photo.JPG
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Kevin Prata
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I had a chance to play with Satamax's drawing. Very interesting. Soooo simple I cannot believe it.

Satamax, did you mean to put a top plate inside the fireplace to complete the barrel effect? I understand the bell outside the fireplace, but if I let all that heat go up inside the fireplace, it will never make it into the flue!

I've got a few clips of the drawing here from SKP, but I forgot to save the drawing :/ It is simple enough though; the only thing I did was to copy those two top plates and paste them inside the chimney. See pictures here.

Also, that port on the left side at the front - is that a clean-out, or an optional horizontal feed?

Thanks!

K.
SKP-from-the-bottom-inside-looking-up-1.JPG
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SKP-from-the-bottom-inside-looking-up-2.JPG
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SKP-from-the-bottom-inside-looking-up-3.JPG
[Thumbnail for SKP-from-the-bottom-inside-looking-up-3.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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A few more snapshots from the original SKP file.

SKP-from-the-bottom-looking-up.JPG
[Thumbnail for SKP-from-the-bottom-looking-up.JPG]
SKP-from-the-top-front-looking-down.JPG
[Thumbnail for SKP-from-the-top-front-looking-down.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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On another note, I just now remember this.... in case anybody might be interested in a beeeeutiful greenhouse, apparently custom, hand-crafted....

There is a gigantic greenhouse nearby here that is falling apart. It still has the original frame and most of the windows. I would estimate from prior visits that it is probably 50 feet long by 25 feet wide, maybe 30 feet wide, and a 16-foot ceiling (glass). The thing was probably built about 80 years ago as part of a very rich, very large estate that has since been sold off in parts. But the greenhouse remains, and nobody is taking care of it. Also, it used some sort of steam heat; I can see the pipes running through. The greenhouse sits on a concrete pad and has wooden shaped copolas over the doors. It has doors on all four sides.

I'm not sure what forum to post this in. Anybody know what to do with it. I may have some pictures that I can post later. Will try to find them.

K.
 
Kevin Prata
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Al - the longest joist is 152 inches (12.67 feet). See drawing (approximate).
basement.JPG
[Thumbnail for basement.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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Hi Everybody

These are pictures of the inside of the firebox, looking up at the flue.

Given Satamax's SKP drawing, I believe he intends to have an enclosed bell, rather than it being open to the flue for all of the heat to escape Assuming this is true, then I would insert either a steel or clay cap into the top of the firebox, just beneath the flue. Inside the firebox, according to Satamax's drawing, I would insert a plumbing pipe reaching almost to the floor and up through the cap to the flue which I would then leave sitting open full-time, since the cap keeps opening closed anyway.

Makes sense?
flue-closed.JPG
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flue-open.JPG
[Thumbnail for flue-open.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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Location: Nyack, NY
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A little more here on Satamax's drawing. I've done this in PowerPoint.

In the foreground, not shown in this picture, might be a mass of some shape also blocking the opening of the firebox, keeping the heat inside. I have it exposed for purposes of a view into the box to see the riser and the pipe up to the flue opening.

Presuming this might heat the house, what should the system size be? I'm guessing... 8" or 10"?

I'm having fun with this!
Rocket-inside-firebox-w-open-flue.JPG
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J-Tube-rocket-inside-firebox-with-plumbers-pipe-to-flue.JPG
[Thumbnail for J-Tube-rocket-inside-firebox-with-plumbers-pipe-to-flue.JPG]
 
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Kevin,

Also, that port on the left side at the front - is that a clean-out, or an optional horizontal feed?



That is the batch box opening. It requires a door. This design does not have a J-tube rocket.

For pictures of it in situ, see our blog: http://blog.dragonheaters.com/category/dragon-notes/the-helix/

The blog needs some updating. We do not offer these for sale.

Cindy
 
pollinator
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Kevin Prata : As I understand what I am seeing, Check with Satamax to see if I have this ALL correct, This will be a horizontally loaded, batch fired, Rocket with
a Big 'Bell' (perhaps more than one as finally build ), as such you should insulate at least the bottom 2/3rds of the outside of Your Exterior chimney.

As sketched it would be very likely that during summer time after your house has been exposed to late afternoon Solar Gain, you should be able to cool the
house down by exhausting excess heat through your combination Rocket heater /fireplace bell by opening a screen opening in your basement and the flue opening
on your RMH/Fireplace, whether you will need a small booster fan to start the natural thermo-syphoning, remains to be seen but your level of comfort in the late
evening and overnight should be a given, it the fan is needed it could be linked to a Timer or a thermostat to bring down the temps to a pre-set level and Auto-
matically switched off ! This would replace to heat of a sun baked Chimney with Coolth that would absorb extra heat out of the interior ! A google search for
Shultz bricks says they are collectable, but how many collectors can there be, they are soft house bricks and can take 'The Heat ' better than most newer bricks,
but are of an irregular size, so will probably be relegated to use as trim! Certainly a good conversation starter !

Can you give us a little more information on the greenhouse? If there was Steam Heat, there had to have been a Boiler and fire brick, perhaps dumped on site !

A chimney with the correct I.D. will naturally flow better, to large and you can get counter flow between failing cold air and warmer exhaust air potentially causing
stalling, again with correct sizing, possibly a new or renewed lining this should not be a problem ! This site has been flagged to draw more attention to it ! For
the Good of the Craft ! Big AL !
 
allen lumley
pollinator
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Kevin : Just a Thought, would '' she who must be obeyed '' be charmed with one or more warming ovens Built into the face of your Fireplace extension?

If it truly became a necessity to a new order of things you might find the kitchen moved to the front of the house, and you and your office relegated to
the back, with 'The Good China' moved into the cupboards on ether side of the Fire place extension- so don't answer to fast ! Big AL
 
Kevin Prata
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Yep you guessed it!

That window in the back of the dining room used to be a built-in China cabinet. It probably made the place way too dark, assuming they used 12-volt lighting and they probably had good reason to minimize windows to keep the heat in. I think when they switched to nat. gas and filled-in the coal chute, they also knocked out the China cabinet in favor of this window.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
 
Kevin Prata
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PS Satamax did not say it was a batch box, but that's what the drawing looks like.

I think I can work on the outside insulation, even if it's just a seasonal installation.
 
Kevin Prata
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A little more information --

The house is 1,800 square feet, two-story, full basement, with 2-1/2 bedrooms, 1 bath. The roofline at the peak is 35 feet high. The house is 30 feet wide (I think) and 30 or 40 feet deep.
 
Satamax Antone
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Guys, i might reply "my" tomorow morning, before i go to work.

But for the moment i'm as drunk as a skunk So no replies now.
 
Satamax Antone
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Hello sirs.

Kevin, the left side "thing" is a drawing sequel, i've used a bell from another build drawing onto which the batch box was on the side.

About the top plate, i've drawn it there, so the whole chimney is heated, but this is not correct regarding ISA requirements (internal surface area)

For a six incher J tube, you would need between 3 to 4m² (square meters) of isa.

For a six incher batch, you can use 6m² The front bell and top plate have to be dimensioned accordingly.

The plunger tube has to have 2 to 3 times the CSA of the system as a gap on the bottom. Not much by any means. May be making it in a funnel shape would be good. Above the plate, i would insulate it, to keep a good draft. Below, it's up to you. Depending on how strong your final draft is. The way you've drawn it is perfectly acceptable. But you would have to raise the chimney shutter to have a good isa.

1800sqf can be heated with a six incher if well designed. Tho, this is with a conventional RMH. I don't know how much mass you have there in your chimney and fireplace.

Myself, to have the looks i would go 6 or 8 batch.
 
Kevin Prata
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Hi Max

Wholly mole wow that's a mouthful of stuff! And I don't know what any of it means!

Anywho, as for the volumetric mass of the fireplace.... I drew it up in Open Office (similar to MS Office PowerPoint); Open Office let me add the "Wall" stone print on the facades of the shapes These are the measurements that I find on the fireplace as it is INSIDE and OUTSIDE the house, including the depth of the stone from the outer edge in the room to the surface of the wall, as well as the depth from the outside wall to the outside edge of the stone.

We are looking at volumetric mass of 183,986 cubic inches, though we probably need to also account for the missing volume of the flue. In any case, that cannot be too significant. I've already accounted for the firebox carve-out, so I believe that whatever might account for the flue is de minimus. Also, though I did account for the firebox carve-out, I MIGHT have put back some of it in the measurement of the outside wall, since I cannot see for sure how much of that exterior mass the back of the firebox might be taking up. But in any case, it should still be insignificant.

I think I've got it right. Can anyone confirm if I calculated the volumetric mass correctly?

I could also load more stone into the firebox, around the chimney pipe and against the walls, maybe a little more on the floor too.

See picture.
Fireplace-Volume.JPG
[Thumbnail for Fireplace-Volume.JPG]
 
Kevin Prata
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Hi All

Anybody familiar with ceramic glass? It looks expensive

'Might be a good investment to preserve the look of the fireplace, covering the fireplace opening, and still be able to see the flame, maybe even the burn tunnel if it were also made of ceramic glass. The glass is stable up to 1400d F.

http://www.onedayglass.com/pyroceram.php (stable to 1400d F)
http://www.onedayglass.com/neoceram.php (stable to 1300d F)

Regards

K.
 
Satamax Antone
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You have about 3 cubic metre of stone, that's about 8 metric tons (well counting like massonry, if it was pure granite, it would be heavier) So, that's plenty enough.

Now, you have to decide how you want it to look, and if it is possible to keep the chimney as is, and have enough ISA (internal surface area.) for it to skip the front bell as i have drawn it. Can you calculate the ISA of the fireplace and chimney?

Allen had a point about insulating the stonework on the outside. I would go strawbales and cob. But i'm sure there's other options.



Kevin, you have about 2.81m² 4353 square inches or thereabouts in the firebox. You need to find a little more above, where you have that metal shutter. You most certainly will have to make a cap above your metal shutter. But i think it is possible to do it, with the firebox of a batch rocket just sticking out of the actual firebox, and the wall of the bell right in the firebox opening. I'm absoilutely sure you could do it with a J tube. But for a batch box, you need to find more ISA above the firebox. 6 M² is what you need for a six incher batch. May be a smidge less, since the stones make the inside wall rough, and this makes more surface.
 
Kevin Prata
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Satamax Antone wrote:You have about 3 cubic metre of stone, that's about 8 metric tons (well counting like massonry, if it was pure granite, it would be heavier) So, that's plenty enough.

Now, you have to decide how you want it to look, and if it is possible to keep the chimney as is, and have enough ISA (internal surface area.) for it to skip the front bell as i have drawn it. Can you calculate the ISA of the fireplace and chimney?

Allen had a point about insulating the stonework on the outside. I would go strawbales and cob. But i'm sure there's other options.



Hi Satamax

I prefer to do without the outside bell, if possible. But if it works better with, so be it. Maybe we can test it first without.

ISA of the firebox:

23”Dx30”H = 690” x 3 sides = 2,070”
+ firebox ceiling:
23”D x 35”W = 805”
Less
23”D x 11”W = 253”
Equals = 552"

Total ISA = 2,070" + 552" = 2,622”

(not including the floor; that would be another.... 552", total ISA 3,174")
 
Cindy Mathieu
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Might be a good investment to preserve the look of the fireplace, covering the fireplace opening, and still be able to see the flame, maybe even the burn tunnel if it were also made of ceramic glass. The glass is stable up to 1400d F.


An efficient burn tunnel might get over 1,400°F. In addition, the glass radiates a lot more heat ... losing it from the fire, making the fire less efficient. We cast Dragon Heaters from a refractory that is good to 2,600°F.
 
Satamax Antone
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Well i calculated with 35 height

23x2x35
+
24x35
+
24+35/2 X35 for the ceiling

And last but not least

35x35 for the brick wall in front in the firebox opening. That gives the number above. If you do the firebox ceiling higher, you can gain enough to reach the 6m² needed.


Here's what i have in mind attached below.

I don't know how you are money wise. But you already have the bricks for the wall. A little refractory mortar would link them.

You buy a heat riser from Mattewwalker at walkerstoves. Since he's not far from you. I bet you can work out the Plunger tube cheap.

Then you buy five insulating firebrick slabs for the firebox. I have access to 24x9x2.5 inch slabs of insulating firebrick here in france, they are US dimensions. So i bet they could be found where you are. And one firebrick paver hard dense brick for the bottom Vees. You'll need a diamond blade for a big angle grinder (not the four inch ones, the 71/2 or 9) to cut the hard firebrick. The insulating one can be cut with a plasterboard saw. And you're sorted, you have prety much everything you need. Chuck the plunger tube in the chimney, and block the chimney around the plunger tube with tightly packed rockwool. If you can hold this with rebar or something similar. If the test work good at the height you've decided, you could pour a bit of concrete on top to make the "plug" more permanent.

You build your firebox and heat riser , fill the rest of the firebox front with your bricks you have outside. May be it would be clever to leave two brick spaces on the bottom, on each side for cleanout. Or buy proper cast iron cleanout doors. But i wouldn't bother myself. Just a hole where a brick can be pushed, and airtigntened with rockwool or anything. The heat won't be great at the bottom. Once year, you pull them out, send the vacuum cleaner hose in there, and voila, sorted.
Filename: chimneybell2.skp
File size: 404 Kbytes
 
Kevin Prata
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Hi Satamax, Cindy

It looks like I won't be using the ceramic glass

I am forbidden, for now, from messing around with the flue/chimney, so any alteration in that regard won't be happening in this first round! But maybe in the next, once I've got things proofed.

Sooooo, that probably also means I'll be using the J-tube rather than the batch box, for now.

Other things, far as I can see right now, remain the same. I might play around with the fireplace front, maybe try out extending the bell out over the hearth, once we get the J-tube working; that would give a bit more ISA for the batch bell.

Next week I might try to get a cast-iron reducer plate that can fit over the flue and reduce it down to the system size (probably being 6" or 7") to attach the plunger tube. I might need to have that reducer plate fabricated.

Later!

K.
 
Satamax Antone
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Any progress Kevin?
 
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Hey Kevin,

Give these two threads a read:

experimentation

implementation

This system:

-I built into an existing fireplace
-has a 4.5in CSA
-has a cast riser with an iron liner
-burns wood, pellets, or both
-was temporary...I used clay slip...the fireplace has been restored to a Rumford configuration

I wouldn't say that this design is a viable solution for your particular situation, but it might give you a few more ideas.

 
Satamax Antone
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Well, drawing another modell for a friend.


Filename: chimneybell3.skp
File size: 508 Kbytes
 
Satamax Antone
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Kevin, have you ever atempted anything then?

 
You totally ruined the moon. You're gonna hafta pay for that you know. This tiny ad agrees:
50 Chestnut Trees for 195.99 - Free Shipping - Interwoven Nursery
https://permies.com/t/99876/Chestnut-Trees-Free-Shipping-Interwoven
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