• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Mike Jay
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Miles Flansburg
garden masters:
  • Dan Boone
  • Dave Burton
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Shawn Klassen-Koop
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Mike Barkley

rocket mass heater myths - youtube video series

 
Posts: 345
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Barbara Kochan wrote:

paul wheaton wrote: What are some topics to cover for season 2?



I would like to see a rocket mass heater for a tiny home, truly tiny, like 100 Sq ft, that doesn't come with the caveat: you can open the windows when it gets too hot. It seems that to get a truly clean burn you have to get things hot and that means a certain amount of coals and that means more wood than otherwise needed for a tiny place in a moderate climate .(SW Washington).. ?? Any and all thoughts gratefully received.



Once you are down to heating a space that small, heating with wood becomes a difficult task.  You might want to  consider some heating solutions for old sailing ships; there are some tiny woodstoves for the purpose, but charcoal is your best bet for a controlled & steady heat from a heat method that doesn't require propane, kerosene or electricity.  A simple one that can be made by anyone with welding skills was sold as a separate plan by the guy who ran Triloboats, but it was basically a 2 inch pipe as both the chimney & the firebox.  The firebox portion is threaded so it can be removed, and has a gated door on the side to drop charcoal down into the shoot, and a vented ash pan at the bottom.  It's lit at the bottom and the burn proceeds from the bottom most charcoal.  There is no support by the bottom, as the unit simply hangs from the supported chimney.

This is actually intended to use commercial charcoal brickettes, but making charcoal for future fuel use is a simple enough skill.  If you are living in a 100 square foot tiny house, then you are almost certainly cooking meals on an outdoor stove, which could be a rocket stove easily enough.  The simplest way to make charcoal would be to drill some tiny holes in the bottom of a stockpot with a tight fitting lid, fill it near the top with small cut pieces of wood, and place your new charcoal kiln on top of your rocket stove once your cooking is done.  As the wood bakes inside the (nearly) oxygen free space, the resin will boil off and push down through the holes on the bottom of the stockpot, and ignite in the stream from the rocket stove.  This is almost a self-driving system, as after a point you really don't need the rocket stove to stay lit and the stockpot will continue to cook itself for some time.  
 
Posts: 99
Location: Czech Republic; East Bohemia; Latitude 50˚ 12' 34"
10
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:

What are some topics to cover for season 2?



I would like to see you guys go over some of the cooking rockets stoves. Like Matt Walker's stove and the many others out there. Heat your cabin and cook your food.
 
master steward
Posts: 27706
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Any other "myths"?  

Maybe building codes and insurance?

I see that there is a lot of interest in design points, and I think that would be a good series.  

How about videos on the positives?   "Switching to a rocket mass heater for home heat can reduce your carbon footprint as much as parking 7 cars."


Right now I would like to see rocket mass heaters be of greater interest than straw bale homes, or cob building, or tesla cars.   I would like to see rocket mass heaters be in the brains of all people.  And I would like to see interest in rocket mass heaters triple every year.    I think what is holding all that up is good information.





 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 27706
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
- glass in the wood feed
- pebble style vs. cob
- metal in the core
- materials for the riser
- use of cements for the core
- build it right the first time then tinker
- bits and bobs from erica's book
- j-tube v batch
- barrel vs. not
- barrel alternatives
- stratification chamber
- video of the annual cleaning
- a tour of rockety things:  camp stoves, cook stoves, rocket mass heaters ...
- a tour of rocket cook stoves
- building codes and insurance
- lab testing a rocket mass heater
- what to believe on the internet
- carbon footprint
- the testo device being put to several different forms of heat


Right now, none of these videos would be going out without my patreon stuff.   The more in my patreon, the faster this goes:

http://patreon.com/paulwheaton
 
pollinator
Posts: 320
Location: Poland, zone 6, CfB
71
books fish forest garden fungi greening the desert homestead medical herbs trees urban writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What about a video that compares the TCO of usual house heating solutions to the RMH, for a given house size and location (climate), over a certain period of time (10-20 years).
Wouldn't that get the biggest audience of non-permie folks?
 
Mother Tree
Posts: 10876
Location: Portugal
1485
bee bike books duck forest garden greening the desert solar tiny house wofati
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jason Learned wrote:
I would like to see you guys go over some of the cooking rockets stoves. Like Matt Walker's stove and the many others out there. Heat your cabin and cook your food.



I'd like to see something about this kind of stove too.  So many people I've spoken to think that oil drums are ugly and that you can't cook on them. Whereas most of the people I've shown Matt's new tiny-house cook-stove to have kinda stopped in their tracks and decided they want one. Myself included!
 
Creighton Samuels
Posts: 345
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Creighton Samuiels wrote:

Barbara Kochan wrote:

paul wheaton wrote: What are some topics to cover for season 2?



I would like to see a rocket mass heater for a tiny home, truly tiny, like 100 Sq ft, that doesn't come with the caveat: you can open the windows when it gets too hot. It seems that to get a truly clean burn you have to get things hot and that means a certain amount of coals and that means more wood than otherwise needed for a tiny place in a moderate climate .(SW Washington).. ?? Any and all thoughts gratefully received.



Once you are down to heating a space that small, heating with wood becomes a difficult task.  



I take it back, those Walker stoves are new to me.
 
Creighton Samuels
Posts: 345
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:"they cannot be that efficient"




I just realized that there is one issue that you didn't even touch in this video, as to a contribution to the RMH's high efficiency.  And that is, a RMH that burns it's fuel completely is producing a great deal of water vapor, and if the exhaust is below the boiling point of water (212 F) before it  exits the mass, then the mass is also benefiting from capturing some of the heat-of-vaporization as a portion of the water vapor condenses inside the mass.  I suspect that a lot of the RMH's that you show on your property are not doing this, as this wouldn't work well with a vertical chiminey, and a lot of condensate might damage some RMH construction materials.  However, a RMH that can take a bit of condensate and exits out the side of the house nearly level with the mass can effectively extract enough heat from the exhaust to get below 212, and below that point also benefit from that condensation.  The lower the exhaust temp (without smoking) that is possible, the greater the gain from condensation of the water vapor.
 
Posts: 85
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Something I think could be useful - a series of short-ish, summary, overview type videos.  Maybe in the 10-20 minute range?  Or less for some.

Maybe these already exist and I haven't come across them?  (Besides from other Youtubers....who may or may not know what they were doing...)  If there are some particular, let me know and I'll watch them!

E.g. maybe:

**Build / project summary - "look what I did" (more than "this is most of the detail on how I did it") - condensed version
**Examples of installed heaters - here it is, these are the basic "moving parts", and why they made sense for this installation, then watch it burn - I know there have been a few of these recently that were similar to what I was thinking
**I think there was another but I've forgotten it

To explain my thinking - something that gives enough exposure to remove the fear of the unknown, but doesn't take a long time.  But, enough of them to see the RMH concept from many angles (over time), get some familiarity with various tradeoffs etc.  

The idea being that a bunch of 5, 10, 20 minute project videos are, 1, more interesting and entertaining (seeing progress e.g. a quick build video), 2, easier to fit in to your day, and 3, much less intimidating than 8 entire DVDs with people debating various small (but important) technical points.  Confidence builders, if you will.


Also, something else I'd be interested in - the layout of the Fisher Price house / room that the RMH is in, and how that works in daily life around the house.  Because I have a similar house and am debating about where and how exactly to position an RMH (if I get one!), how to put it into the flow of going in / out / through the house, working, entertaining, etc.  Not a technical aspect but certainly necessary for them to gain a wide acceptance!




 
C Jones
Posts: 85
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A couple of personal examples that may help get across what I'm talking about -

in my down time I started watching some of Matthias Wandel's videos.  He does woodworking and crazy mechanical stuff.  I do not do woodworking, and don't really need to learn many of the things he does.  But he keeps them so interesting (and short) that it is easy and fun to watch....and do you know what, I started realizing I was actually learning after all.  And I would be much less intimidated to try to build something out of wood or use the tools, even just on little home improvement projects.

Another example that comes to mind is Jennies Garage (yes, no apostrophe).  He fixes motorcycles and other stuff.....lately he puts out (kind of) short videos that really keep it interesting.  Just enough explanation, a few jokes, but summarized / condensed so that you don't have to watch every last bolt.  And now I'd almost feel comfortable tearing my weedeater carburetor apart if something went wrong.

Mind you, I wouldn't endorse everything either of these guys says/does, but it has been an almost effortless introduction to their respective skills.  That's what I'm trying to suggest for RMH too!

(Maybe I just have a soft spot for fixing stuff... oh right, I do....)

 
Posts: 87
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

paul wheaton wrote:- glass in the wood feed
- pebble style vs. cob
- metal in the core
- materials for the riser
- use of cements for the core
- build it right the first time then tinker
- bits and bobs from erica's book
- j-tube v batch
- barrel vs. not
- barrel alternatives
- stratification chamber
- video of the annual cleaning
- a tour of rockety things:  camp stoves, cook stoves, rocket mass heaters ...
- a tour of rocket cook stoves
- building codes and insurance
- lab testing a rocket mass heater
- what to believe on the internet
- carbon footprint
- the testo device being put to several different forms of heat


Right now, none of these videos would be going out without my patreon stuff.   The more in my patreon, the faster this goes:

http://patreon.com/paulwheaton



I second the comment:
"I'd love to see a compare and contrast of the different styles of rocket mass heaters: j-feed vs. batch box; barrel vs. bell (stratification chamber); riser vs. riserless..."

I don't truly understand the barrel alternatives, but what really mystifies me is efficiency comparison of the bells vs. the barrel, and how bells are either the same or similar to, or different from the masonry stove built in the Latvia house here: https://vimeo.com/157572718.  

Are the construction and use of bells included in the 8 DVD series?  

I'm also interested in the legal stuff surrounding RMH and how we can change the code in our local areas....has Erica written a guide where we can learn from her experience?

Also, I'd like a summary of available
-design plans
-shippable cores
-kits
-build and/or design services

!!!
 
pollinator
Posts: 380
44
books chicken hugelkultur solar tiny house urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chad Sentman wrote:I would be very interested if there were efforts made to persuade this woman, not just through debate or sending her this video series, but by challenging her to spend a winter with one, perhaps something akin to the $10,000 bet between Paul Ehrlich and Julian Simon, or the similar $10,000 bet between Matthew Simmons and John Tierney.



I just listened to the recent podcasts about reaching critical mass, about Ernie's frustration, as well as Paul's frustration that Rocket Mass Heaters aren't in the mainstream, that there's so much disbelief over the claims of efficiency, etc.

The suggestion was made to lie about the efficiency by severely understating it, so that people would be more willing to believe.

As I listened, I convinced myself that the way forward is a highly publicized $10,000 bet. Or similarly, something like the X-prize.

Offer a relatively large sum of money to whomever can build a working RMH and either set a new record in efficiency (in the X-Prize model) or to whomever fails at achieving a set low level of efficiency, like 30% more efficient than conventional (in the $10,000 bet model).

Have people build an unfuckupable RMH model according to very detailed specifications, have it inspected by someone who knows RMHs and how they should function to ensure the quality of the build and control for cheating, and test fire it under optimal conditions.

Set whatever stipulations you like to ensure that the bet is a sure thing. Charge an entry fee so people have skin in the game.

You will generate interest and publicity, hundreds, perhaps thousands of RMHs will be built, and perhaps critical mass will be reached quite quickly. There may even be a way to augment the PR side by challenging someone famous like Al Gore or Elon Musk.

I see a lot of upsides, any downsides?
 
I didn't do it. You can't prove it. Nobody saw me. The sheep are lying! This tiny ad is my witness!
permaculture bootcamp - learn permaculture through a little hard work
https://permies.com/wiki/bootcamp
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!