jacob wustner wrote:No, a thousand times no. It's enlarged cell size that has been going on long before plastic frames. If you want to know, check out Dee Lusby on bee source.com under POV. She will straighten you out.
jacob wustner wrote:Have you tried small cell or treatment free? Have you measured brood from feral hives in your area?
Pre and Post Capping Times and Varroa
8 hours shorter capping time halves the number of Varroa infesting a brood cell.
8 hours shorter post capping time halves the number of offspring of a Varroa in the brood cell.
Accepted days for capping and Post Capping.(based on observing bees on 5.4 mm comb)
Capped 9 days after egg layed
Emerges 21 days after egg layed
Huber's Observations on Capping and Emergence on Natural Comb.
"The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering. The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed. In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form. It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state."
François Huber 4 September 1791.
(note: this is a quote from the 1809 English translation and it is almost identical to the 1821 English translation both of which say "six days" But I have since found the original French which says, in both the 1792 edition and the 1814 edition: "sept jours & demi" which should be translated 7 1/2 days. This makes it come to 20 days which is still one day short of 21 days)
My Observations on Capping and Emergence on 4.95mm Comb.
I've observed on commercial Carniolan bees and commercial Italian bees a 24 hour shorter pre capping and 24 hour shorter post capping time on 4.95 mm cells in an observation hive.
My observations on 4.95 mm cell size
Capped 8 days after layed
Emerged 19 days after layed
Why would I want natural sized cells?
Less Varroa Because:
Capping times shorter by 24 hours
Resulting in less Varroa in the cell when it's capped
Postcapping times shorter by 24 hours
Resulting in less varroa reaching maturity and mating by emergence
More chewing out of Varroa
jacob wustner wrote:But Dee Lusby is an inspiration for hundreds if not thousands of beekeepers world wide who want to do organic beekeeping.
jacob wustner wrote:
Dont knock something if you haven't tried it.
jacob wustner wrote:These invasive interventions you speak of are only invasive from your perspective. Most beekeepers call it working.
jacob wustner wrote:That is awesome you have a bunch of hives that are from swarms and cut-outs, but numbers would be nice here. Careful observation works for describing colors, behaviors and the like, but measurements describe sizes. Numbers of hives, sizes of worker brood cells, and the longevity of each hive compared to its worker brood cell size. Otherwise I have nothing to compare it to.
jacob wustner wrote:I never said anyone is infallible. But Dee Lusby is an inspiration for hundreds if not thousands of beekeepers world wide who want to do organic beekeeping.
jacob wustner wrote:From listening to people's stories who are on its list, it seems that the small cell size has allowed people to keep bees without treatment for many years. But that doesn't mean it is the small cell that does it, maybe it is genetics. Dee sure has a whole lot of experience and wisdom, despite her strict policies. Reading her work is still enjoyable for me, and I agree with her on lots of issues, that is why I suggest that people do. I also suggest people do more research before telling others that their way is the way to go. I still want to prove small cell for myself. I have waited too long, mostly because people told me it didn't work. Maybe in a couple of years I will agree with them, and maybe I will agree with Dee. Until then, I stand by my years of experience and all of the research I have been doing on my own.
jacob wustner wrote:For what it is worth, I am transitioning from a conventional beekeeping operation to a permaculture one. And I plan to make my living from it for the rest of my life.
jacob wustner wrote:
I still see no need to knock anything. I guess I am trying to be more like Paul Wheaton and not being angry at bad guys. There is a great danger in telling people that they should or shouldn't do something. We instead can offer alternatives. But the beekeepers who you make fun of are doing the same thing to you. Doesn't do anyone any good.
jacob wustner wrote:In my experience the style of hive, or the space that the bees inhabit on their own, does not have to be set in stone. Frames or no frames, people are keeping bees that are healthy without treatments for diseases. As far as I can tell, the honeybee is quite adaptive to its environment. They do seem to prefer hives that have combs already in them, and cavities within a certain volume range. But that doesn't seem to deter them from making homes in all sorts of places.
jacob wustner wrote:Frames have enabled us to learn more about the honeybees, and have enabled people to learn more about them through hands on experience and observation. They also make beekeeping more economically viable by not having to crush comb and reusing it.
jacob wustner wrote:I do produce comb honey for people to consume, wax and all. But if you crush every comb you harvest, or sell it as comb, your business growth rate is severely stunted. Also, when using frames in boxes, there is not any need to handle individual frames unless you are extracting them. And this is after you have taken them off the hive. In this way it is no different than warre other than being way easier.
jacob wustner wrote:Using frames is a great way for people to learn about all the different things that can go on within a hive. If you don't care to know, that is fine.
jacob wustner wrote:I feel like bees build the same whether they are in boxes with frames, empty boxes, hollow trees or the wall of a house. They use gravity and fill the space as they grow.
jacob wustner wrote:I am not curious about consequences of management practices of others, I have seen it for my own eyes. I consider myself learning all the time.
jacob wustner wrote:If you are measuring comb size, measure across ten cells and divide by ten. Gives you a fairly accurate measurement.
jacob wustner wrote:And you measuring your available comb and sharing it here has given me even more reason to support the small cell theory.
jacob wustner wrote:The size of adult bees varies by the age of the bee and whether or not they are on a honey flow. It also changes with the seasons. So if you are going to go on the size of adult bees on your entrances, there a few variables you need to consider.
jacob wustner wrote:Swarms with two different colorations are well documented, they usually united on their own accord.
jacob wustner wrote:And who said anything about demagogues? That is a strong name to be calling someone.
jacob wustner wrote:Are you suggesting that I am mixing up correlation and causation? I don't believe there is ever a perfect experiment, they all have flaws. That is why we have to do so many experiments, the human brain can be too egotistical to see that controlling all variables is impossible. I grew up in agriculture, and for most farmers they find something that works for them and stick with it. We can share our experiences and that is what Dee has done and lots of others are doing as well.
jacob wustner wrote:Farmers have always done what they felt they had to do to put food on the table.
jacob wustner wrote:But thankfully in this age of communication, we are evolving at a much faster rate. That is why we are here on permies to share our thoughts and experiences. Not to bad mouth each other, but to celebrate the bounty of nature and share its lessons. IN NO WAY do I feel like I have all the answers, I am just sharing my thoughts of questions I have been asked and have asked myself. I have been blessed to have been born into a beekeeping family. And I cherish the idea that I can take all the good things I have learned, and share it with others. And that includes learning the hard way on how to keep bees more naturally.
jacob wustner wrote:Mike,
I would agree with Dee that her practices are organic, I think that you mean that her standards do not align with the standards set by the national organic standards board. That doesn't mean she isn't organic, it means she is more organic, I would even say permacultural. I have never met her, but I assume her rudeness comes from years of people running their mouths around her. She is probably fed up, and I don't blame her. She rubs me the right way! I like passionate and strong-willed people who don't put up with b.s.. Maybe I am more like her than the kinder, gentler, diplomatic beekeepers. It is the same personality that I love in Paul Wheaton. They just tell it like it is, and don't care who they offend!
As for foundation, you could use wax small cell foundation in any type of hive if you want to experiment with it. But for me, as a beekeeper, I want to use langstroth. And it seems that converting to small cell will happen much faster if I use foundation.
I would like to add that no one calls it industrial beekeeping within the industry, it is commercial beekeeping.
And you can use foundationless frames in an extractor if you are careful to make sure it has been in the bees for more than one season. If the bees get a chance to eat the honey, raise brood, and fill with honey two or three seasons, then the comb cell walls are made thicker and becomes considerably stronger. Brand new comb should either be sold as comb honey, or left in (or put back in) as feed honey to give it a chance to strengthen over a couple seasons before it can be extracted like the commercial beekeepers do. This was how the commercial beekeepers I learned from did it before the days of plastic foundation.
tel jetson wrote:
the 4.9-mm-is-natural argument of the small cell crowd