ant village and the ant village challenge

This idea has been stewing for a week. And then a long visit with Zach, followed by several visits with lots of people here ....

I am posting this with the idea of: what have I not yet thought through? I think we will officially open this up in a week or two.

The idea is that for $800, a person will have one acre up through September 10, 2016. There will be a limit of 12 people allowed into the "ant village challenge". On September 10, if there are still six people in, then the best one will be selected to have their acre converted to deep roots ($21,000 value).

I provide no meals or tools.

There is water about a mile away. We hope to have closer water this summer.

There will be limits to how often people come and go from the village.

There will be access to a pooper.

If only four people sign up, then it begins with the hope that more will show up soon.

It is possible that people sign up and do this just for the sake of ant village and they don't give a damn about the ant village challenge.

The point of "there must be at least six people on September 10, 2016" encourages people to help the others make it through.

I like the idea that there will be some collaboration. Maybe trades. Maybe commerce.

I like the idea that somebody comes with a trailer full of used tools and goes into the used tool business.

Then there is the concept of: by what metrics do I select the winner? I specifically choose September 10, 2016 because this is a time when I would be able to evaluate preparedness for the upcoming winter.

40 points for the amount of food to get through the winter
30 points for quality of shelter / winter warmth
15 points for art and aesthetics
20 points for contributing to community infrastructure

(I'm not trying to have this add up to 100 - I am just trying to think of what metrics I want)

Suggestions? Ideas?

I think this could be a really good idea depending on who you are trying to attract. I know that I, personally, have never made more than about 800 dollars a month in my whole adult life and I certainly haven't saved enough that I could pay out that amount per month. But I do have my own tools. I don't know... I think many people who are into the 'offgrid' type life may be in the same boat. At least if they've been doing it awhile. Seems like it could be a good way to get fresher blood in and trying it though. But then theirs the tool expense... And most people my age who DIDN'T "drop out" like I did are deeply in debt to their schools or the financial interest which co opted them... And like - rock soil needs hard young bodies... I don't know.

Again,

What is you market? Who are you trying to attract?

Awesome! I think there should be 1 point for documentation, so that we can learn from experiments/what worked/didn't work. Doesn't need to be extensive, can be a more tick-box affair, but at least some kind of record so that at the end of the ant-challenge you have something to show for the process rather than just the end result.

Landon Sunrich wrote:I think this could be a really good idea depending on who you are trying to attract. I know that I, personally, have never made more than about 800 dollars a month in my whole adult life and I certainly haven't saved enough that I could pay out that amount per month. But I do have my own tools. I don't know... I think many people who are into the 'offgrid' type life may be in the same boat. At least if they've been doing it awhile. Seems like it could be a good way to get fresher blood in and trying it though. But then theirs the tool expense... And most people my age who DIDN'T "drop out" like I did are deeply in debt to their schools or the financial interest which co opted them... And like - rock soil needs hard young bodies... I don't know.
?

Could be worth thinking about social/food safety nets, but again depends on the kind of resources available to set up the project. I'm sure that you wouldn't let somebody living on the land next to you starve, but to avoid getting in sticky situations you might want to think this particular aspect through first.

Landon, this is not $800 per month. This is $800 for, say, march 10, 2015 through September 10, 2016. $800 for 18 months. So about $44 per month - if you wish to think of it in a monthly way.

But to be clear: it is $800 to try. You can start in a few weeks or a few months. I think the earlier you start, the better your odds. And, of course, "either party can terminate this arrangement at any time." So a person can lay down $800, hang out for three months and then say "I have learned that I don't have what it takes to do this" and be on their merry way - I keep the $800. Or, a person can lay down $800, do something outside of my comfort zone and then I send them on their merry way - and I keep the $800.

On September 10, if a person does not win the deep roots, they can continue to rent that acre for whatever our rate is. It will be about $1200 per year at that point. Or they can convert their acre to shallow roots or deep roots for whatever the rate is at that point.

This is crazy, exciting stuff. Should be filmed and turned into a Documentary! Race for the Deepest Roots!

This sounds really generous.

I would love to know from people with more experience, what is the going rate for land in the US? in Montana? what's the smallest parcel you could lease or own? If you wanted to get a tenth of an acre would you even be able to lease that without a permaculturist or someone sympathetic to the cause owning it and making it available to you?

THis makes sense economically for Paul too, since presumably that land isn't going to be used for something else anyway.

I want to stay put here, I have been getting to know this piece of land. And I don't have much extra money at this time, but I would consider investing in someone doing this to help them reach the $800, and I'd give a pretty low interest rate.

I think a lot of people would go for a kickstarter connected to this too, though that's a little more complicated in what you have to guarantee out of it.

Get Jack Spirko to be your co-judge. Ask Stephen Harris to design the energy and tool system. They specialize in preparedness. Ne plus ultra.

Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:This sounds really generous. I would love to know from people with more experience, what is the going rate for land in the US? in Montana? what's the smallest parcel you could lease or own? If you wanted to get a tenth of an acre would you even be able to lease that without a permaculturist or someone sympathetic to the cause owning it and making it available to you?

At least in Indiana, the very best farm land goes for around $12,000 an acre with average being in the $7k to $9k range. Recreation land (wooded land) goes for for 4 to 5 thousand. Of course, these prices are for broad acre pieces. For smaller lots, location is more of a factor in determining price. Based on landwatch, smaller building lots near towns run $10k-$15k an acre, while in rural areas a 20 acre parcel might go for $40k.

I think this is an affordable opportunity for an aspiring permie, but aspiring permies can be very dangerous.

One concern is that noobs who "knows enough to be dangerous" could construct something or alter the landscape in a way that costs more than $800 to remediate. For example, someone's in the midst of putting up a structure and along comes a wind storm and it blows over and klonks Paul on the head, causing $$$$ medical bills. Or, say, they dig a huge pit in the ground intending to build an Oehler structure, but something happens and the pit collapses in on them and buries them alive.

I'd like to see clearly defined "outside of Paul's comfort zone" and "There will be limits to how often people come and go from the village." ...I'm imagining someone who wants to build a structure out of reused materials would have to go on a lot of scavenging trips, potentially bringing back materials that are "outside the comfort zone". Those concerns are valid, obviously, because someone could burn hundreds of gallons of gasoline hauling a bunch of trash up there to build their "eco house made out of garbage" that costs way more than $800 to clean up once they're gone.

Part of me thinks you'd be better served just building yourself 12 awesome little cottages or wofatis and renting them out for $200 per month.

Overall, I like the idea.

Agree with Abe, what are the limits? Are there limits on the permanence of construction?

This is so exciting!

paul wheaton wrote:20 points for contributing to community infrastructure

Would community infrastructure count as local to the ant village or to the property as a whole? (I ask since property as a whole might be worthy of a bit of a subsidy vs the shared ant infra).

Also, could multiple people (say a couple or whatnot) collaborate and combine their money to get 800 dollars for one acre? Or alternatively, can several people (each separately putting in 800) share a contiguous piece of property and collaborate on it (e.g. three folks get three acres, and set up a shared shelter in the middle, and the remainder is set up as a shared permadev zone)?

Lastly, I don't want to think what sort of legal agreement would be needed unless a fair set of limits are placed, but that should be expected as well as the monitoring needed to verify comfort limit issues.

Abe Coley wrote:I'd like to see clearly defined "outside of Paul's comfort zone"

I think a lot of that is spelled out in the podcasts. But even beyond that, I feel it is important to leave it really open. I think if somebody is doing something that is outside my comfort zone and I ask them to rope it in and they tell me to piss off ....

But the funny thing is, that if you try to make a list of what is not okay, people will find some way where they think what they are doing is okay - because it wasn't on the taboo list.

I think the podcasts are really good at covering a long list of topics.

And then there are the biggies: no tobacco, no drugs, no GMOs, no pesticides.

and "There will be limits to how often people come and go from the village."

I've had people tell me that they intend to commute to missoula for a job every day. That is definitely out. So, five times a week is too many.

Plus, it seems that when we talk about what would make a better world, we are all for carpooling and sharing resources, but in the implementation phase the same people that advocate for that do something else.

Plus, lots of trips leads to lots of road maintenance.

My feeling is that something like two trips per week is plenty.

Shaz Jameson wrote:Agree with Abe, what are the limits? Are there limits on the permanence of construction?

I think most people will create a wofati variation.

Some people might shoot for a debris hut (so this might last only three years or so).

I think it is possible for other things, but it would need to be something that ends up quite "earth integrated" - so a green roof at the very least.

Abe Coley wrote:

Part of me thinks you'd be better served just building yourself 12 awesome little cottages or wofatis and renting them out for $200 per month.

This is also a great opportunity for an ant villager. (I do have a dream of living in a tiny house village.... )
Other A.V. Folks are going to need a place to sleep and eat!

Thanks Paul for addressing my questions so quickly. I'd just be cautious of having too many inexperienced people around -- i'd hate to see someone who's constructing a rocket mass heater in august accidentally burn the whole place down.... "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link" kind of thing. I would think the ant village would need a vigilant overseer to keep the noobs from doing anything disastrous or catastrophic.

Mike McAdam wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:20 points for contributing to community infrastructure

Would community infrastructure count as local to the ant village or to the property as a whole? (I ask since property as a whole might be worthy of a bit of a subsidy vs the shared ant infra).

Yes.

There will be some road and trail maintenance issues. Stuff that everybody uses. Plus, everybody will probably start off with the same shared pooper. Not sure how the water situation will end up. But I cannot help but think there will be stuff that is for helping everybody. And some people will be better than others and making things excellent for all.

Maybe one of the things I should do is "20 points for community glue": let's face it, some people build community and some people just can't seem to stop themselves from destroying community.

Also, could multiple people (say a couple or whatnot) collaborate and combine their money to get 800 dollars for one acre? Or alternatively, can several people (each separately putting in 800) share a contiguous piece of property and collaborate on it (e.g. three folks get three acres, and set up a shared shelter in the middle, and the remainder is set up as a shared permadev zone)?

We are going to go out tomorrow and pick out the 12 spots which will be in a line along pascal road. First come, first serve. In other words, if two people want to be next to each other, they would be wise to come early.

I think a couple or a family is okay - but there will be just one person named as "the person" for that acre.

Lastly, I don't want to think what sort of legal agreement would be needed unless a fair set of limits are placed, but that should be expected as well as the monitoring needed to verify comfort limit issues.

I think a requirement that has been around since before I bought the land is: you have to listen to most of the podcasts. In fact, let me be clearer now - you have to have listened to the first 300 podcasts. This will give a person a clear idea of what it is like to suffer under my tyranny. It also makes me very predictable as to what will be okay and what will not be okay.

The wording of all this will be that either party can terminate the agreement at any time. So, I have the right to terminate the agreement at any time for no reason. This is the same deal that is with the deep roots stuff. And we have quite a few people that have signed on to deep roots. So if anybody is the least bit uncomfortable with that, then DO NOT DO THIS!

I do have some very high standards for what I expect of the people that are on the lab.

Abe Coley wrote:I'd just be cautious of having too many inexperienced people around

Which is why I would want to limit this 12 people.

A big part of what Zach was saying on sunday is that ant village people will probably bring a lot of more experience to the table than gappers or wwoofers. While that won't be absolutely true, I do think there is a lot of truth to it.

I would think the ant village would need a vigilant overseer to keep the noobs from doing anything disastrous or catastrophic.

I think it takes a village to raise a permie.

In other words, there won't be a vigilant overseer.

But what are you gonna do when someone starts a forest fire?

Income opportunities:

1) I hope that at least a few ants arrive with residual income streams.

2) I think some ants will arrive with some sort of on-line or long distance biz.

3) I think some deep roots people and some ants will be hiring for short term or long term.

4) I suspect that most ants will have a little something in the bank for tools, materials, seeds, food for the first year, etc.

5) I suspect that there will be other income opportunities once in a while.

6) There is no guarantee of income. Part of the mission for ant village is to end up in a state where your income needs are very small.


Food opportunities:

1) wildcrafting

2) 7 hours of gapper labor converts to three meals. There will be a gapper village nearby.

3) what you grow

4) hunting and fishing opportunities

5) buying food from others on the lab

6) organic (or better) food only! Can be purchased in missoula.

Abe Coley wrote:But what are you gonna do when someone starts a forest fire?

Are you saying that if I don't do the ant village thing that there will be no forest fire?

I think that if anyone, anywhere starts a forest fire that that person gets investigated and possibly even imprisoned. That person would be in big trouble wherever they started that fire. But what does this have to do with the ant village?

We could talk about techniques for reducing fire danger, but then we could start a discussion here on every topic for which there is a thread on permies.

Are you saying that if I don't do the ant village thing that there will be no forest fire?

No, I'm just saying that accidents happen, even to experienced people. I'm just trying to think up worst case scenarios to consider.

But what does this have to do with the ant village?

The ant village would be located at the lab, which is located in a conifer forest in the dry environment of Montana, yes? Say someone drives from all the way from Missoula to the ant village, and they park their ripping hot car over a tall dry tuft of bear grass... boom there goes the forest fire.

I totally think the ant village is a great idea, and there are a lot more arguments for it than against it. Fire, collapsing buildings or earthworks, trash accumulating ant-villagers are low-probability events, but they should be factored in nonetheless.

I have been thinking about this and foresee a few potential problems...

Whoever signs up will most likely be interested in and motivated by the offer to stay on as deep roots. With only one winner, that leaves at least 5-11 people or groups of people who will be very disappointed at the end, when all of their labor and energy will have gone into something that they won't be able to keep and continue to invest their time into.

With that, I think it will be very critical to make it very clear what the standards are and will be when judgment day comes. Within each category, it would be good to give more specifics.

I also wonder if some people will foresee that they will not be the one/s chosen and will call it quits before the end. It would be sad for the 1 person left if they put tons of energy into their project and would have won the challenge, but won't because everyone else has left.

What if there could be multiple winners? Perhaps if the participants know that if they reach certain standards (they would be high standards) in all categories, then they would be eligible to stay on as deep roots. The ideal would be that the ant villagers develop camaraderie and put as much energy into their acre as possible, and would be motivated to do it. Motivation may dwindle if, when the end date is approaching, they don't think they will be the chosen one. I would think that if you could get a handful of people who do an excellent job with their acre AND like their ant neighbors AND want to stay permanently, that it would be good to keep those people and convert as many of those acres into deep roots as deserve to be. It would be sad if the winner were left all alone. It will be sad for the people who have to leave. I think the more remarkable thing will be to keep as many awesome, deserving people as possible.

It seems the approach might need to be that people can pay $800 and play with an acre for over a year and you will probably get some cool things built and started out of it. OR you could really motivate the participants by offering more than one deep roots prize and REALLY get some awesome things happening. It is difficult to fully invest oneself into something one cannot keep in the end.

I think the idea is brilliant. The key may be in application process, how detailed the person's intention is for the land, what they intend to do and how they intend to accomplish it. Ensuring that a plan of action is really thought out, will force the applicant to explore what they want to do, learn and share as well as what their role in the anthill may be. That may also help in the possible formulation of a functioning small community as well as wrap this adventure in reality for every applicant. Could it be possible for someone, doing a really good job although not the best job, to re-up for another year? That would make sense to me and allow the anthill to develop with new people joining during the following season as well as some seasoned ants to carry on the momentum. Odds are good that some people may leave before the "lease" runs out, but there should be people waiting in the wings to take their place that have already submitted a plan already laid out.

Investing time in such a creative environment is better in many ways than someone taking on a 1 year internship. With an internship, there's no self sufficiency needed, creativity is minimized, there's really no skin in the game nor the possibility of permanency, but loads of people gift a year of their time for someone else's dream. I think this opportunity would be more appealing for many.

This would make a neat documentary/vlog. An interactive online audience might help spread the permaculture bug a little further.

Emily Aaston wrote:
you could really motivate the participants by offering more than one deep roots prize and REALLY get some awesome things happening. It is difficult to fully invest oneself into something one cannot keep in the end.

I like this idea.
If you have a number of folks documenting and truly living off the land meeting all of the guidelines of the ant village(comfort, ascetics, community, income, etc.), that's a super valuable asset to have around.

It's like live action permaculture Oregon Trail! It makes me wish I could just drop everything for a year and drive up there.

Perhaps if the participants know that if they reach certain standards (they would be high standards) in all categories, then they would be eligible to stay on as deep roots.

Here are the current options for the people that don't win:

1) they pay to convert their spot to deep roots.

2) they pay to convert their spot to shallow roots.

3) they pay for another year of rent on their spot.

4) they convert to a gapper and continue to live on this spot.

5) it turns out that they have a skill that has great value to me and we arrange something where they exercise this skill to my benefit and as part of what I provide to them is to continue to hang out on that spot.

6) Suppose several people are contemplating a deep roots package. Rather than doing deep roots on bare land, they are negotiating with the ant to take their spot. So the ant gets paid for what was created there. Maybe the ant does the challenge again. Or maybe the ant rents another acre for a year with the idea of flipping it in the future.

7) I have, in the past, mentioned the idea that a person comes and builds a small home and that they would get free rent for a year or two. Therefore, if there is something significant there, I suspect that an arrangement could be made where they stay there an extra year, and then I can do something with that structure after that time. Maybe a gapper residence or maybe I sell it to a future deep roots person.

it is possible that they make some sort of arrangement where something is traded for their staying on that spot. Maybe lots of produce or lots of wildcrafted foods, or lots of game (meat). Or who knows what.

Mostly, I think that we will get to a point where there is a lot of commerce and salatin-style-fiefdoms. And the annual rent for an acre would be really cheap. So I kinda feel like this is already pretty easy to stay on.

To more closely address the idea of awarding multiple people deep roots in a year, I have a lot of concerns in that space: one is the idea of having six contestants get to sep 10, 2016 and all six seem pretty weak - so the idea of giving away even one deep roots package seems painful. The next is being disrespectful to the people that are paying for deep roots. The next is the idea of how I get to continue to pay taxes for the land and pay for infrastructure and pay for gappers and pay, pay, pay, pay while others benefit from all this payment without making further contribution.

I am willing to try this experiment and offer that single deep roots as an award to see how it goes. But there are lots of risks - this is not a slam dunk.

Motivation may dwindle if, when the end date is approaching, they don't think they will be the chosen one.

Agreed. At the same time, there are a lot of other motivations besides being the winner.

I think the more remarkable thing will be to keep as many awesome, deserving people as possible.

Agreed! And I think there is already lots of incentive for that!

It is difficult to fully invest oneself into something one cannot keep in the end.

Why would they not keep it? It is their choice, is it not?

If a person goes out and buys ten acres of their own land, they would still be required to pay taxes on it every year.


- - -


I'm excited about this idea. I am also concerned that I will end up many dollars in the hole because of this, but if it pans out to be a good idea, then it might be a template for thousands of other farms. And a way for many thousands of people to start a better life without needing a $200,000 grubstake.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:This would make a neat documentary/vlog. An interactive online audience might help spread the permaculture bug a little further.

I would like to think that several of the ants will follow this very path. I think a vlog could be the root of building an income stream, as well as building a reputation.

Ryan Barrett wrote:

Emily Aaston wrote:
you could really motivate the participants by offering more than one deep roots prize and REALLY get some awesome things happening. It is difficult to fully invest oneself into something one cannot keep in the end.

I like this idea.
If you have a number of folks documenting and truly living off the land meeting all of the guidelines of the ant village(comfort, ascetics, community, income, etc.), that's a super valuable asset to have around.

Maybe the thing to do is make it so that I am offering a deep roots package to what I think is the best based on my values. And it is possible that there could be somebody else that will purchase a deep roots package for the party that best meets their values.

paul wheaton wrote:

I have a lot of concerns in that space: one is the idea of having six contestants get to sep 10, 2016 and all six seem pretty weak - so the idea of giving away even one deep roots package seems painful.

Perhaps a way to protect yourself would be to say that it would be possible that none of the contestants would win a deep roots acre to prevent it from going to someone you think is weak. And still possibly be open to the idea of there being more than 1 deep roots winner if there are some awesome contestants (or this could be for future contests if it goes over well). If it is awarded to one person, and there are others who are closely behind maybe you can extend the contest, awarding another acre in another year or two. But instead of awarding it to the "best" person, there would be a certain standard to achieve before any person is eligible for deep roots. That way it won't go to anyone you deem weak.

paul wheaton wrote:

The next is being disrespectful to the people that are paying for deep roots.

I suppose having a discussion with each one of them and finding out what they think is fair would be good. (You have probably already done this)

paul wheaton wrote:

The next is the idea of how I get to continue to pay taxes for the land and pay for infrastructure and pay for gappers and pay, pay, pay, pay while others benefit from all this payment without making further contribution.

Maybe the winner of deep roots would need to pay 1/200th of the taxes.

I do think that this could be a wonderful opportunity for some people, and also beneficial for you to have a thriving, working community on the lab. It will all depend on finding the right applicants. Having them listen to at least 300 podcasts seems necessary. And perhaps a 2-day check-out like Joel Salatin does. This seems to be a very effective method. Maybe even a mandatory 1-week check-out. You will want to trust them, and they will want to like being under your guidance. This is something you already know, but there are higher stakes in this scenario. Good luck!

I think it is important that if I set out criteria and that criteria is met, then I must award a deep roots package.

I do think that if this works well, it may be wise to do it again. So there would be more than one deep roots package given away.

I like the idea of somehow encouraging a lot of perennieal foods plus some sort of living that has an incredibly natural, incredibly low impact. But it seems like we would then be talking about a contest that might be judged two more years later - and so far, I am still struggling with getting my head wrapped around this first thing.

I also think it is acceptable that the person that wins their deep roots package, could sell it.

What you are proposing is that I offer more than one deep roots package this year. And at this point, my innards are saying that one is plenty - for now. When we get to one year from now, I suppose I could add candy to the pile because I could see your wisdom later. Or, I could set up a second ant village challenge.


As is, I think that the criteria I wish to set up at this time is:

222) a limit of 12 ants. These 12 ants could be participating in the challenge or not.

223) for there to be a deep roots award, the following conditions must be met:

223.1) at least 6 ants spent the full winter (nov 2015 to march 2016) on their plot and continue to live on their plot as of sep 10, 2016

223.1.1) each of the 6 or more ants must have spent the winter in a structure on their plot. This structure would be virtually invisible from outer space, and relatively invisible from people within a hundred yards. Preferably a wofati, but possibly an alternative. Mostly I am discouraging people from simply winter camping all winter. Or using a tipi or yurt. This is part of a competition of demonstrating vision in a tiny, earth integrated home. An elaborate debris hut is a possibility.

223.1.2) each of the 6 or more ants must have grown at least 50,000 calories of food for each person living on the plot by september 10, 2015. And 300,000 calories of food for each person living on the plot by september 10, 2016.


What am I leaving out? What else should I set up?

Documentation would be nice.
Permies thread, Blog, vlog, etc.

Please click on the thumbs up for this post if you think might want to be an ant this year.

Would it be possible to be an ant without a car? From the podcasts, sounds like many gappers don't have a car but don't need to get their own supplies as much.

How bikable is the nearest grocery and hardware stores (within 10miles seems good to me)? Does UPS deliver?

I was soon going to send in $100 for the gapper program this summer, but now looking forward to hearing more about this.

I have been thinking hard on how to reorder life to let me join the 'ANT' challenge.
Annnd, imposable this year however.

IF i Could:

would Ant's be able use the lab's earth moving equip. on property? (x hours of gapping = 1 day of rental {including a qualified operator})
Or the lumber mill (x Hours gapping = 1 tree milled) Um, you should set a max % of the trees cut on each arce.
and to be clear is this part of the lab allow the use of power tools, generators ect.


So... despite having listened to all 300+ Podcasts.
I have no idea how you feel about the use of cargo containers on the property.
one could bolt a container onto a Log skid and use it as temp. housing/shop space.

as for the long term home i envision a wofati style earthbag shelter w/ earthship elaments.

sigh i should stop before Paul starts feeling like the D.O.M.F.B

Paul, I think this is a very exciting opportunity for people to try and learn and really do this permaculture thing. I am very interested to see how all this experimentation works out. We will probably be learning a lot from things they try. I am old, married with children, and stuck in the Portland area, but for a younger, freer person, what an opportunity!
John S
PDX OR

Right now it seems like you want $800 from any ant to show up and whether you stay or go, Paul is keeping the $800. This might weed out some smart people who would otherwise be a good fit.

Obviously the 300 podcast thing will help, but I would suggest that there be a brief "getting to know each other" period during which the ant can decide this isn't going to work and be able to leave with the majority of their money.

Like, if you leave in the first 4 weeks, you give up $100, or $200 or somesuch. Maybe even $100 per week, so if you leave after 3 weeks, you get $500 back.