Puppy killed sibling

So my dog had a litter of 7 puppies that are now 9 weeks old. They are a mix of black lab, black and tan, border collie and chow. They have been fantastic, never hurt anything, or so we thought. A few weeks ago one of our goats and two chickens died. Well today two male puppies pinned a girl puppy by her neck and were being pretty vicious. She was crying so I went and broke out up. I sat back down and heard them fighting again and when I got back up they had already killed her. It took them about five to ten seconds. I'm no expert but it seemed intentional. So I have a few questions. Could they have killed the goat for sport and left it intact? Second, what should I do with them. I wanted to find them nice homes but I don't want to put anyone in danger. They have never even growled at me or my three year old daughter, who is pretty rough with them. What should I make of this and what are my options? Two have already been given away, should I inform the new owners? Thanks in advance.

Hi Michelle,

I am so sorry that you have to experience this. This is a potential "breed cocktail" with lots of positives, and unfortunately some very strong potential negatives as well when mixed (chow-border collie.)

Yes they can kill for "sport," and yes the other animals you have currently lost could have been to these two males. I am sorry you lost the little female. As for recommendations, I would have them "put down" immediately and there gene combination is not something to spread, nor does this behavior curb itself typically. Which means you have 3 left. Can you tell us about the parents there breed combination, disposition, and how the other three puppies seem to be?

Regards,

j

I know exactly what I would do, I would put them down.

Ahhh, so sad I'm going to cry. The parents are both great. The mom is ours, she is lab and black and tan. Wonderful dog. She is very reserved and submissive. If you go up to her while she is eating she will back up and let you in as if to say "you can eat first". The dad is our landlord's dog. He's border collie and chow. He's a wanderer out here in the country so I don't see much of him, but I've never seen him be aggressive. But I know for sure the aggression did not come from the mama. Unfortunately I can't tell three of them apart so I don't know which two it was. There are four left, should they all be put down? And what about the ones I already gave away. One was a boy that looked like the mom (not sure if looks have anything to do with what personality they have), and the other was a female. I have seen aggression in three of the four we have left.

Nine week old pups are equivalent to a human toddler. They cannot be held accountable. It is probably a case of not knowing their own strength. Perhaps the female was sick or just fragile without showing signs and unable to withstand the rough play. Young pups like this want to play with anything and everything and don't understand that they can harm. They should not be encouraged to play roughly by children because by doing so, they are being taught to be rough. How are you determining aggression? Many people mistake mouthing like all puppies do as aggression but that behavior should not be allowed. If a pup mouths a human, they can gently catch its bottom jaw with the fingers for just a moment. Just long enough for the pup to begin to be uncomfortable. Stop playing immediately and even "talk dog" by whimpering. They will probably be surprised by the reaction and even try to console with kisses. They will soon learn that human parts get stuck if they are held in a dogs mouth. Take them out on leashes with the livestock and if they lunge toward the other animals, scold them in a deep resonating voice for several minutes. A mother dog talks to them in this way to teach her pups. When she is pleased with them, she uses a high pitched happy voice much like we do when we "baby talk" to our young. Starting at 7 weeks, puppies are ready to interact with the outside world and experiment. These have had an unfortunate start. They must be supervised when introduced to the livestock. It can be reversible with training. I understand that it is very difficult to forgive these accidents but remember that these are babies and give them a chance. I don't think you need to inform the new owners just give the rest to city people not farms. Hopefully the new owners will train the first two. Dogs who grow up to kill livestock don't turn on people any more than other dogs. Humans are the dominant species and are instinctually feared until a dog learns not to fear somewhat but stays respectful. Dogs that attack are trained to by a method that involves teasing and reward. Another thought. Has Mom been removed from the pups? Can she be allowed back with them to help with training? Perhaps her shyness keeps her from being a disciplinarian. That just means more work from people to pick up the slack. As far as the breeds in these pups should not be a problem. Mixes are usually well balance psychologically. The border collie does have bred in herding that can be kind of like OCD disorder in humans and Chows can be protective but since the parents are fine, those genes are too diluted to have any effect on the pups. I cant understand why people breed for herding ability (involves chasing and harassing) and then shoots dogs for chasing and harassing. Why do people breed dogs to bring back birds to the owner and the neighbor shoots him for carrying off his chickens? The dogs don't know the difference. I hope this helps because that is my intention.

p.s. I don't think they killed the goat. It would have been treated as a plaything and severely mauled.

How much do these pups weigh? I can't imagine two month old puppies killing a goat. Wait, how old were the puppies when the goat and chickens died? You say they are 9 weeks now and the livestock deaths were "a few weeks" ago? Now I'm even less able to imagine the puppies being responsible.

Although, I'm baffled that puppies of any age could kill a sibling, so this may just be entirely out of my realm of imagination.

I will put in a good word for second chances. My 14 month old puppy killed a chicken at 9 months (after being marvelous for them since two months). In retrospect I blame myself because I was encouraging her to chase and hold them for me when I needed to catch them, from three months on. The death happened when she was unsupervised, and a chicken got loose, and she did as previously directed by me but I wasn't there to stop the predation sequence (which is pretty hard-wired, and super stimulating with chickens, who do all the wrong things when it comes to dogs).

I was really worried about it happening again, and it could happen still, but she seems to have learned to leave them alone.

You're right Julia! I reread the original post. It was "weeks" ago, the pups were no more than 7 weeks, maybe less. It would be impossible for them to kill anything. I have been a professional obedience trainer for 45 years and a pet rescuer for most of my life and have never heard of 9 week old pups killing anything let alone a sibling. This is my area of expertize. Maybe the poor little female pup was injured internally outdoors sometime before the boys tried to play with her. In play, one pup will take on the role of the victim like saying "you're it!" and the boys had no way of understanding that she was really hurt. There is definitely some info missing of which the owner is unaware.

I really want to give them another chance too, and I actually have after each chicken. (Which I know they killed). And even the mom has killed and eaten a chicken and I know that that is normal dog behavior. They were hunting for their food. Especially since they have lab and black and tan in their blood. But hunting and playing are different than what I saw yesterday. There was no remorse from either dog. No wining or nudging for her to get back up to play. They smelled her and walked away. It just didn't seem normal. The mama was the only one who showed signs of grief. As I look back another thing that was odd was their total lack of attention they paid to my foot when I broke up the first fight. They did not attack it and it didn't stop the fighting. I actually had to kick the dogs off of her far enough away for her to get up and run, and when she ran it was with her tail between her legs. The puppies should be socially aware enough by now to know that she was in distress and any 'playing' would have ended. Plus, two on one isn't a fair fight. I really only know what I observed and maybe there is an explanation, I don't know enough about dogs to know, but my gut tells me something is off.

Hi Michele,

Now you have a spectrum of views and recommendations, as well as more things to think about...

All puppies do have a "learning curve," yet it has been my experience with most Canids as well as other herd/pack animals, that the foundation of social behaviors is set down in the neonatal stages of development and genetic propensities can have a very overwhelming influence.

The parents where the "unknown" for me, and now I probably would contribute the aberrant ethology on perhaps the male gene pool as Chow's and Border Collies both have been know for "sport killing." Even with close supervision, these individual animals from this litter may not ever be suited to be around livestock, even with intense behavior modification training. I personally have never known anyone effectively "training out" or "reversing" baseline ethologies, whether working with large predator Felids, Ursids or Canids. It has become a current trend in "extotic pets" and other breeds to romanticize these animals and believing the "baseline behavioral installations," can be removed by training or other means. Such notions, whether with a breed or within individual animals could be looked at as imprudent and potentially taking unnecessary risks of future owners that may be naive. I also, in good faith, would not every pass on any animal, to others without full disclosure of not only parent breed, but also the current litter history. This is considered standard protocol for any breeder of "good standing," of any animal line.

Doges, of course can be trained to be aggressive, and "rough play" when young is a common "gateway" activity for such future "poor behaviors." What you have described could well have been exacerbated by such play, but that is not to suggest that they won't (or didn't) develope this completely on their own. Champion Border Collie breed lines have been known for throwing out "sport killer" animals that will run sheep off cliffs one after another just to watch, or just kill them indiscriminately for sport in a misguided and futile attempt to "herd." These animals are put down immediately and never tolerated as the risk of passing on this "intense trait" to herd/control must be eradicated within the bloodline.

Early "weaning"can have some limited behavior challenges, yet not as presented in these two males. Breed gene profiles are "very much" part of understanding how a particular "cross breed" is going to behave. There are very strong and distinct breed characteristics not only in physical traits, but in baseline ethologies as well, and you are wise for not only asking these questions, but taking note of them as well. "Mixing" (aka hybridizing) an animal can have some very positive outcomes, as I stated before, unfortunately it can also have some extremely unwanted characteristics as well which may only manifest in certain individuals of a litter. For this reason alone, I would recommend only culling the males, and perhaps only after an "observation period" and the less dominant male may well be following the more aggressive litter member.

As for the ability to kill in young animals, I have a long history of many such anecdotes from countless incidents, including one of my own involving a 6-7 week old female Mastiff/Rottweiler cross (she killed a 5 day old doe Nubian goat and goslings), that later broke my heart when I had to put her down for killing a horse and cattle. She was not overly aggressive, and didn't (as many don't) maul, or overly "mouth" the victim animals. This alone is a trait of a "stock killer" as their only drive is to stop the animal from moving and when it does...they lose interest immediately and go on to other "moving targets." I would further note that she was the only one out of a litter of 6 to present with this behavior and the others pup (including both parents) had been excellent animals. My dog too was great in all ways, and never even played rough, but could not stop herself from attacking anything that moved. It was clear this was and further became a "compulsion" that was not going to be modified in any way.

Hope this additional information is of use. Please let us know the outcome and if you have other questions.

Regards,

j

Remorse is a human emotion. It is a mistake to expect animals to feel human emotions, they are not human.

I think what you describe is worrisome but not necessarily a death sentence.

Sure, dogs can have mental health issues. Perhaps they have a mental disorder that makes them unsafe. Maybe they don't.

I've broken up a lot of fights. I have a lot of dogs and I expect fights to happen from time to time, and they do. My dogs do not pay attention to any of my body parts when I break fights up. They aren't interested in me. So them ignoring your foot is no biggie to me. Also of no big deal to me is the fact that they would go back after her. I find a separation helps the blood cool enough for them to be ok when I release them back together.

Chows are particularly known for their ability to kill things. I've buried neighbors cats, my birds, wild birds, an antelope once. This doesn't even count the endless number of rabbits we are totally fine with them eating. I expect when you get a fair amount of dogs together, hunting breeds in particular, that things are potentially going to die. Hence the big ass fence we have between the dogs and nature. If nature crosses the fence....sorry nature.

Anyway, I guess I think you should do some reading, take some training courses, figure things out a bit. I'm no dog whisperer. My dogs have very low standards from me so they don't do too terribly much. But I do know my dogs and my dogs behavior. I know what they fight about, how to prevent it and how to handle it when it happens. I also know how to train some behaviors out of them. Food aggression is something you seemed to touch on. That can be handled with training or organization. None of my dogs are fed next to each other. I see no reason to encourage them to become possessive.

Anyway, if you find them homes I think you should certainly let people know what has happened so they can seek the advice of a trainer.

Probably wouldn't hurt to have the mother fixed either. She may not have negative behaviors but that does not mean they aren't there somewhere, in her genes. I know I was surprised to get black shoulder peachicks. I thought my peahen was totally india blue. Somewhere in her lineage, she had a black shoulder relative. Something recessive until she was bred with a black shoulder cock. So you don't know what is there, best not risk it again.

Killing a chicken is one thing. But they killed their sibling.
I would put them down, no doubt.
I think you may have to weigh off the damage they could do later in their lives...
Is it worth the risk?

Just my two cents.

May you choose wisely.

They're your dogs so it's your decision, but, with that decision comes the responsibility of any future actions of those animals. Personally I will not knowingly allow an animal to leave my care with a known or suspected problem. That is the number one reason it's next to impossible to find quality working stock these days.

In Real Life I'm a pro dog trainer with 45 years and over 2500 dogs worth of experience (and 14 generations of my own bloodline to date). I train working retrievers, and I give remedial lessons for pets that have gotten out of hand (usually due to "positive only" methods).

Fact is, nearly all dogs love to fight, but most won't go out of their way to start it (tho any dog will pile on once a fight does start). And even dog-aggressive dogs generally don't show dog-to-dog aggression til about two years old. But there are exceptions -- some puppies show intent-to-kill aggression very early. This is genetic, and really not desirable in dogs not intended to fight. Such dogs will be a problem with other dogs their whole lives, and will even do abnormal behaviors like beating up the opposite sex (which normally never happens).

Such a dog is really only suitable as the ONLY dog in its household, and can never live safely with other dogs. It will kill lower-ranked dogs, and will often not respect a higher-ranked dog either, thus gets itself chewed up as well. (Social rank in dogs is inherited, not made. In a fight, the lower-ranked dog ALWAYS loses.) This will get worse with maturity, not better.

Such dogs are not always human-safe either, especially with inexperienced owners. You're fine unless you go down and scream or there happens to be more than one dog present -- then pack instinct kicks in and the human who goes down and screams is now the target of the instinct to "kill the rabbit". And it's more easily triggered when a dog is already looking for an excuse to jump other dogs.

Many dogs are not social with other dogs no matter what (unless neutered so young that they remain psychologically juveniles, which has other undesirable consequences: aggression can be transformed into fear-biting). This lack of desire to socialize with other dogs is pretty common in working dogs, but most will just ignore other dogs or tell 'em to "stay outta my face". However, some won't tolerate other dogs at all and will treat them as hostile intruders. This isn't truly dog-aggression, but do remember that not every dog wants to be buddies with other dogs; quite the reverse. In fact, the more the dog wants to be YOUR buddy and work for YOU, typically the LESS it wants the company of other dogs. They are often not social with strange humans, either. (A desirable trait; you don't want your working dog to abandon its job to go play with the pack, or hand over your sheep to whoever comes by, do you??)

Chows are typically extremely unsocial and often aggressive with both other dogs and strange humans. Mix that with a border collie's desire to chase whatever moves, and you can have a problem. (The issue of conflicting inherited behaviors is one of the reasons mutts are, generally speaking, 3x more likely to bite: per CDC numbers, "rescue" dogs, which are mostly mutts, are about 18% of the pet population, but commit 50% of the serious bites. Chow crosses are among the most likely to bite.)

ALL predators kill for sport; two or more dogs running loose (and not bred and trained as flock guardians) is a blatant invitation to kill livestock. So no surprise there. Even puppies can take down a larger animal, given the right circumstances, and aggressive dogs generally have a very high pain tolerance and won't be bothered by, say, getting kicked by a goat (if anything it'll egg 'em on).

Keeping the wild animal genes at bay is an ongoing affair that needs attention with every generation; it's not a done deal. Personally, I'd cull a problem animal; I wouldn't keep it in the gene pool nor pawn it off on anyone else.

Dogs act like dogs. If you think of them as children in furry coats... well, you need to reread Lord of the Flies.

This same thing has with the pups outside my home. These are mountain dogs. They can’t be bound inside at homes. And they generally prefer eating and then wandering on their own.

There are 6 litters not more than 1.5 months old. Yesterday, one female attached the other female, who is comparatively weaker from the others. Not once but thrice she attacked the weak one. I had to keep her in my room. And again in the morning when she went out to her mom. She was again attacked by another male pup.

This has left me so confused. Because none of the dogs are harmful here. They even have basic training to sit and stay.

I really think this is their inherent quality of survival of the strongest.

Anyone who can tell me anything on this.

Hi, i’ve had a similar experience with a litter of 5 puppies. One of them is a very small female puppy, it is obvious that she is growing unnaturally slow compared to the other as she can barely walk even if she’s passed a month old. It has been normal for the past week with the other puppies picking on her sometimes but not rough at all. Then recently her female sibling suddenly attacked her with no intention of playing. The female puppy picked her up and swung her around, the little one kept squirming and crying because she couldn’t do anything with her weak body, i was trying to separate them but the bigger one was very aggressive and bit even harder. Luckily i got to remove the bigger one but unfortunately, the little puppy had a very big wound on the side of her belly that we cleaned and covered. I am really confused why her sister would do that without any provocation coming from the little one. Can anyone please explain why?

I have golden doodle puppies, 9 weeks old. Their behavior completely changed yesterday. I think they need to be separated. They are still good dogs.

I have a 4 week 3 day old pup bullmastiff x pit bull (only one mum didn’t get a chance to kill) and had a litter of 11 Staffy x pit bulls that are 5 weeks old had two pups over night die on separate night one after the other now tonight being to paranoid to sleep with 10 healthy pups scared they going die when I witnessed the lone puppy that at birth grew up with her sisters pups kill her litter mate same as always it was always the smallest one (she’s the biggest pup there is apart from the first born male out of her older sister litter) heard a puppy struggling got my phone turned my torch on just as I seen this pup over him by the throat picked him up and shook him all within seconds of glancing over it is possible so to the skeptics saying it’s hard to believe I’m sorry but I witnessed this and wished I didn’t so it does happen unfortunately

So I just had a very similar event happen.
I have a litter of 8 puppies . The dad is pure bred German shepherd and the mom, who we have is a shepherd mix. They are 9 weeks old today. The other day we came home from running errands to find that they broke into the chicken coop, and killed 10 chickens.

The mom has always been great. She is young tho. She is only 1 year old now. She had never killed one of our chickens before until the puppies started.

Then they went after my male duck, and we caught them trying to eat him alive.

This afternoon , my neighbour came flying over to my house, in a panic to inform me that she just had to go save one of the puppies from being killed by the mom and 2 other pups. One male and one female . They had her and were ragdolling her by her neck with no intentions of stopping . When I got them all separated , and put into their pens, I then witnessed those 2 same puppies , go straight for the hurt puppies neck , with definite intent to kill. There was absolutely no form of playing involved. I grabbed those two instigators and separated them.

I am absolutely distraught over this.
My neighbour does not feel that her animals are safe and I 10000% understand.

I believe those specific pups that were intentionally trying to kill the other female will have to be put down. As for the mom, we haven’t figured out her fate yet, but it is absolutely unacceptable what she did and we will not have a dog like that.

I grew up with my mom breeding dogs. Out of 6 litters, we never once witnessed anything like this.

Thank you for this feed. I have read every comment and response.

This is extremely overwhelming and I feel for all of you who have experienced something similar.

Hi Paige, How horrid for you for this to happen! As you say, at a year old the mum is still only a baby herself. Hopefully you will be able to train this instinct out of her at least. I'm sure she would have been showing killing tendencies before this if she was vicious, probably just got confused?
We have a young mastiff dog in sheep country and are very aware that she needs to be trusted with the livestock. She is getting better as she's getting older (15 months now). I am able to stop her by calling if she starts after the sheep, but I need her to get a stage better and not start, even if the sheep start to run (which they have an tendency to do around dogs!) since I won't always be with her.
Good luck and may you make the right decision for everyone.

Hey. I actually came here to know the reason behind this aggression. I have a lab at my home and two street dogs who eats in our home and lives in the locality. One of them just gave birth to 4 pups a month and half ago. One of them had died just after 10 days of birth, she had a wound that was infected severely. Another one of them, a red and white pup had also got infected from the deceased pup. But the house owner of the house where the mum dog had given birth, saved the red and white pup buy medication and treatment. They were so cute and harmless like they couldn't even hurt a fly, until today. I heard a pup crying hysterically this afternoon and ran there, I thought may be there were male dogs from another locality and are trying to kill the pups. But when I got there, I was extremely surprised to find a pup outside there handmade home shivering in fear , the mum crying feebly and the red white pup sticked to the black pup's (the weakest and most peaceful of the 3) back. he had been biting the black one so roughly that his whole backside was a bloody mess. He kept crying and the red one kept growling lowly. I tried to separate separate them but it was like the red one had a dead grip and a firm intention to kill the black one. Even tried separating them with a stick, called them lovingly (to which they always come running) but to no avail. The mother started growling at me when I tried to forcibly separate them, so I had stop my attempts and come back home as I didn't wanted to get bitten by any of them, and above all I couldn't risk anything as I have my own one,at home. I tried to call for the house owner but they were out of station. Just some minutes ago the owner uncle came to to our house saying that the black pup is  severely injured and had lost too much blood. They aren't sure if the black pup can be saved(he has given medical treatment), the red one is kept isolated now, and is behaving normal.

I want to know why the red one suddenly started behaving like this, it seemed like he wanted to rip the black one apart, as if he couldn't hear anything at all. I have had various street dogs fed at our house and sleeping outside but I've never seen such aggression in puppies. It's as if he was deaf and blinded by rage. I am first time dog owner so I'm sorry if I spoke too wrong, but, could it be seizure? Or rabis? Is it inherited and a gene problem?? Are they unsuitable to keep at home and in human presence? Are they unsafe?

Please if someone could answer, as they're not a specific breed and are street dogs. I'd be really appreciate it.

Regards~

There is so much going on with this topic.   A few things to consider:

As the spay/neuter movement REALLY takes hold, fewer and fewer dogs that have the temperament to EXCEL at pet dog life are in the breeding pool.  Genetics gets skewed toward the dogs that survive by being anti-social,  strays, outdoors,  fighting off competition and staying away from humans.  

A piece of that is that flight distance is genetic.   This means the amount of space a dog NEEDS to not go into fight/flight behavior.   For dogs in the above mentioned gene pool, they have HUGE flight distances.  Being kept contained, indoors, with a lot of dogs/people, etc.  never gives them the flight distance they need to stay out of fight/flight.  This is neurological/genetic, not socialization or training.  Trying to "rescue" these dogs and make them into pets leads to heartbreak, frustration, and sometimes real danger.

Also,  dogs that are STRESSED during pregnancy hardwire the brains of the developing puppies towards survival mode in a dangerous environment.   Young dogs,  first time moms, dogs that are nervous or skittish to begin with...  before birth their puppies are having their brains pre-programmed for higher stress/fight/flight behaviors.  

Just a few additions to the many good considerations already discussed here.    It's not healthy/ethologically sound for young dogs to kill their puppies, or puppies to kill one another,  that's much much more than "they got too excited" or "they are too young to know yet" stuff.    I do see young puppies with genetic dog aggression from time to time, especially from independent guarding breed or fighting breed type mixes.  

I have five male puppies and everything was fine until they were about 5 months old... The one that tended to be most aggressive started abusing the runt by taking its toys, treats, etc.. The other morning I came down to find the aggressive one mounting the runt with penetration anally. Has anybody ever heard of this type of behavior?

Rob, your puppy is starting to mature sexually at 5 months.

This is normal between 5 to 8 months,  Maybe this might help:

https://www.preventivevet.com/dogs/how-to-stop-dog-humping

See posts above by myself and Heather.

Rob Marsh wrote:I have five male puppies and everything was fine until they were about 5 months old... The one that tended to be most aggressive started abusing the runt by taking its toys, treats, etc.. The other morning I came down to find the aggressive one mounting the runt with penetration anally. Has anybody ever heard of this type of behavior?

The penetration is accidental. I've seen it with ordinary male-and-female-in-heat. It's a hole, it was in the target area, the aim is a bit random. Hit the hole and reflexes take over. (I've also had dogs, male and female, that would breed and tie when no one was in heat. Had two that did it every day for years. Recreational sex, nothing more.)

The article from "preventive vet" is mostly feelgoodist nonsense. Fact is dogs love to hump, it's basically masturbation, and unstressed dogs do it FAR more than stressed. Some from the time they can walk, some never. Females are actually rather more likely to hump than males are, and to be downright obsessive about it. Some to where if the girls had a strap-on, it would be sticking out between their current love's ears. I've also had a pair of stud dogs who lived together and had mutual masturbation down to a fine art, and spent pretty much all their idle time "practicing" (taking turns, for twelve years).

However, it's also a behavior that tends to follow the dominance hierarchy: whoever is the boss gets to do the humping, and the underling gets to be the humpee. Most know their "place" and there's no problem, go have fun. BUT if you have dogs that are already dog-aggressive, "knock it off" gets a violent response. It does not matter that humping was involved; it could have been anything. Toys are a common trigger, exact same social mechanism. Me boss, you dead.

Training helps when you're there. It won't change behavior if you've got five juvenile dogs running together and not under immediate control, and who are wired to behave aggressively with other dogs. As much as I dislike the side effects of neutering, this is a case where I'd probably put them all under the knife, sooner rather than later, just to help prevent more-adult behavior from developing and becoming fatal fights.

This is why I have assiduously selected away from dog aggression in my own kennel. I can run nine intact adult males together without any problems (four of those live together full time), not because they're so well-trained but because the desire to kill "that other useless dog" is just not there. I've bred it out, and not by accident.

[Wait til you encounter a male dog that has learned how to do "deep throat" on himself. I've seen a neutered dog who did this.]

Rez Zircon wrote:The article from "preventive vet" is mostly feelgoodist nonsense. Fact is dogs love to hump, it's basically masturbation,

I guess there are two schools of thought all about dogs that hump.

I for one am not going to put up with it.

Years ago when we were young and at a party.  One lady was drunk and the crowd took great pleasure in seeing a dog humping her.

I was so shocked.

None of my dogs have ever behaved this way so I always wondered why one person's dogs do it and not another person's.

Anne Miller wrote:I guess there are two schools of thought all about dogs that hump.

I for one am not going to put up with it.

I thought I answered this but the post seems to have vanished, or at least I can't find it. Anyway -- dogs humping each other is just dogs being dogs. Dogs humping humans is the dog out of control, completely unacceptable behavior, and that needs to be stopped instantly. It is no different from the dog knocking you down.

I just had this happen with my litter of 8 pups. They viciously attacked the most submissive girl. They are 8 weeks and a day old. We have her separated for her safety. I have seen this in adult dogs but never this young so i was pretty thown. Im just nervous about rehoming. Was this a one time deal or will this be a constant issue in any home?

Emmilee Ringelberg wrote:I just had this happen with my litter of 8 pups. They viciously attacked the most submissive girl. They are 8 weeks and a day old. We have her separated for her safety. I have seen this in adult dogs but never this young so i was pretty thown. Im just nervous about rehoming. Was this a one time deal or will this be a constant issue in any home?

Being submissive may be the entire reason why she was attacked. "Go down and scream" tends to instigate "pile on and kill the weakling". This is normal pack behavior and can happen even with good-natured dogs. (This, not aggression, is the primary way humans get attacked or killed by pets. Grandma goes down and screams, and pack instinct can kick in even with dogs that have never shown the slightest aggression toward humans; however having strong bite inhibition tends to prevent it.)

Because it's evident so early, I would not place these pups with people who expect sweet submissive dogs that will be agreeable with every dog they meet. They'd be better in homes with some experience, and if there is another dog, no more than one, and of the opposite sex.

I am very happy I found this thread but
surprised to learn my thoughts and intuition was correct. Sad to say my puppy tried to kill his sibling tonight.

I have 3 Pomeranian puppies that are just 6 weeks old. Two boys and one tiny girl.  The largest one is calm and doesn't have anything to prove. The other boy is very demanding while his  sister whines a lot for attention and just happens to be sweet and very cute.  They have a large sectioned playground with tile flooring in our den. I play with them, groom them, and spend time with each one individually everyday. I even have my bed set up in the corner to watch them at night. When I sit on my cuddle time chair they run over to me and fight over who I should pick up first. They try by barking the loudest or crying non stop to hurry me up for their turn. I put on my noise canceling headphones and give my full attention to the pup. Staring into their eyes and telling them how much I love them and petting them, scratching, or massaging them. When the timer goes off I put them down and it the next ones turn. I try never to show favoritism and it's always first come first serve. Today my neighbor who comes over 2 x a week to help socialize them with me picked up the two that are fighting for my attention at the same time. He held them for the whole time together. Just before dinner they were wrestling and I kept hearing the girl scream. I yelled "hey, what's going on" I walked over to see the boy bite her leg and swing her in the air and do the death shake on her. I screamed even louder as I made my way over. She got away and he chased her and pinned her down and bite her neck and did the death shake again. I truly believe that her being smaller is like instinctive prey, I think sibling jealousy got him because he had to share his attention time with her. And lastly me yelling and screaming was like a fight instinct triggered. I am going to separate them unless I'm on the ground with them. Also gonna recommend the boy be the only dog in the home.

Also wanted to share when dogs are fighting we would turn the water house on full blast and spray them in the face to let go. Never use your hands to break them up. Their super strength kicks in when they are fighting. I also use this with dogs humping peoples legs. The only problem is the persons leg gets hosed too. Have you ever tried removing a dogs paw grip off a persons calf. Not as easy as you think.

It kinda bothered me when people responded with excuses like they are too young, or they just got carried away, they didn't know their own strength. I can tell they knew it was more just like I did but just didn't want to believe it like I felt. Always trust your instincts with your animals. Never forget they are animals after all. It's their nature to be unpredictable.
I included a pic of my killer.

Crystal are your pups still with their mother?  Was she allowed to wean them properly?  This is the first critical stage of bite inhibition imprinting,  when momma dog says "you may no longer put your mouth on me at will but only by invitation."  Sometimes well meaning people take puppies away as soon as mum starts "being mean to them" but it's crucial for social development.  Assuming mom has the capability herself.   Sometimes young/new bitches suck at it and are too passive.

Heather Staas wrote:Crystal are your pups still with their mother?  Was she allowed to wean them properly?  This is the first critical stage of bite inhibition imprinting,  when momma dog says "you may no longer put your mouth on me at will but only by invitation."  Sometimes well meaning people take puppies away as soon as mum starts "being mean to them" but it's crucial for social development.  Assuming mom has the capability herself.   Sometimes young/new bitches suck at it and are too passive.

Speaking as a canine professional who has raised about a couple hundred litters -- this sounds good, but it's nonsense. Bite inhibition is inherited, not learned, and varies strongly by breed and bloodline. You can (usually) smack it into submission with people, but any discouragement by the dam only applies to her; they will happily hard-bite other puppies unless bitten back harder. And that happens when you don't have enough inherent bite inhibition to start with.

Conversely, it is very difficult to get a dog to bite that is naturally inhibited. With dogs that inherited strong bite inhibition, it never happens to start with, and there is little or no need for such discipline at any age.

There's a pretty simple test for puppies. Grab the puppy by the side of the neck just ahead of the shoulders (be a little rough) and see how it reacts.
-- Fully bite-inhibited, won't even turn its head to look.
-- Some bite, will snap the head around and maybe bang their (closed mouth) teeth into you.
-- A lot of bite, will put their teeth on you, maybe bite you for real.

Remember, this is inherited behavior. Negative inherent behaviors that you don't select against, you will get more of. Aggression and bite tend to be dominant (wild animal) traits.

I am with the others, where is the mother?

Maybe that is the problem.

Humans giving the pups more attention than their mother.

If the mother is still around, why not allow her to handle the situation?

When I had a litter of puppies, I let their mother do what their job is.  

I only potty-trained them and fed them after the pups were weaned as a gift to their prospective new parents.