Black Locusts vs. Honey locusts et al

I wanted to write a brief description of the similarities and differences of honey locust (herein referred to as HL) and Black Locusts (herein referred to as BL)...feel free to add something as needed. Please excuse the grammar and wording, its late and I need bed!

BL and HL are both thorny trees however BL doesn't generally have thorns on the trunks of older trees whereas HL has LONG thorns on the trunk and branches, regardless of age. Young BL trees will have trunk AND branch thorns (generally less than 1") but spaced farther apart than HL. Sometimes HL can appear from a distance as being 'hairy' with thorns, perhaps because they are.  When it comes to LONG, nasty thorns, that is the HL. Long, nasty tire popping, barefoot throbbing thorns= HONEY LOCUST! HL has long sharp thorns on the trunk AND branches on trees of all ages. HL has a darker, smoother bark (similar to that of a young cherry) whereas BL has a light tan colored bark on young trees turning a darker gray and more grooved (hackberryish) as the tree matures. Both HL and BL have seed pods.  BL seed pods are smaller, generally less that 7" and are nearly identical to Mimosa tree (silk tree) pods and also resemble eastern redbud pods.   Honey locust also have seed pods but they are distinctly longer pods like Catawba or Kentucky coffee tree and are oftentimes greater than 12" and often curl in a spiral shape.  The seeds pods of honey locust are often used as "sweet feed" for livestock and a sedating treat for that cow or goat who doesn't like to be milked. HL, BL, eastern redbud and Mimosa tree are all legumes and N fixers however HL and BL are in the family acacia, whereas eastern redbud and Mimosa are not. HL and BL have roots that are more similar to rhizomes (like a giant Bermuda grass!) and sucker profusely (like a giant Bermuda grass!) when cut or when the soil around them is disturbed. Many states consider both the HL and the BL as an invasive specie.

The flowers of BL are extremely popular with bees and produce a very sweet, aromatic honey.

As a side note, the Mimosa tree (Silk tree) attracts hummingbirds better than any other plant on earth! Here at the farm we have counted 8 different hummingbirds in our Mimosa tree at one time.

Thanks for posting this comparison.  I am bummed to hear about those thorns....

So which makes better animal fodder/feed?

Do those thorns affect the 'feeding' of the leaves and pods?

very interesting thread.  id like to plant me a boundry line of the the HL......

around here BL is pretty prevalent.  popular for firewood and fence posts.  bee keepers like the BL  but i cant say iver ever seen  a HL tree.

I like the thornless honeylocust, I think it is a pretty tree. 

Also edible by people (the pods) but I don't think it's very tasty. 

H Ludi Tyler wrote:
Also edible by people (the pods) but I don't think it's very tasty. 

A lot of the "edible" plants I've had are like that.

Dan D. Lyons wrote:...eastern redbud and Mimosa tree are all legumes and N fixers...

I actually just read that redbuds do not fix Nitrogen here. Searching "redbud fixes nitrogen" every other result is contradictory. Anyone have a reliable source on this?

FYI, BL bark and leaves are toxic to cattle and horses.

I have been collecting Thorn less HL seeds letting them soak in slightly cooled just boiling water, waiting for them to swell then starting them in post.... If you cant find any TL HL seeds around town check here-

https://sheffields.com/seed_genus_species_lot/Gleditsia/triacanthos/100544///Inermis//

If you would like just a couple and you think they would survive a ride in an envelope p/m me your address and I would be happy to send some out...

Don't expect thornless HL seeds to produce thornless trees.

Also, I'd like to note that last year I wrote that BL was toxic to cattle but that's not necessarily true but a mineral block can help with toxicity.

This is what JL Hudson has to say about thornless HL

—Gleditsia triacanthos inermis. (d,h) GLED-10N. Packet: $2.00
Oz: $6.00, 1/4 lb: $18.00
'THORNLESS HONEYLOCUST'. Thornlessness is a genetically dominant trait and comes
true from seed. Other than lack of thorns, this tree has all of the fine
properties of the thorny kind.

Well, I recently watched (Paul's Replacing Irrigation with Permaculture Talk) and he told a story about a town in Australia that Bill Mollison revived. The former ghost town now hates Bill because the thornless HL that he planted produced lots of seed that then produced HL with thorns.

Thornless may be a dominant trait but as you know, you can't eliminate a recessive trait. So if the tree produces pods (which some don't) then it's just genetic roulette.

Cj Verde wrote:Don't expect thornless HL seeds to produce thornless trees.

Also, I'd like to note that last year I wrote that BL was toxic to cattle but that's not necessarily true but a mineral block can help with toxicity.

I know that BL has developed a reputation for toxicity to humans that isn't actually proven (actually it's been disproven - Samual Thayers eats BL seeds/pods and considers them edible), but most sources consider them poisonous. I wonder if actually edible to most/all likestock as well.

Though HL is considered an excellent production crop and also is edible for both livestock and humans. I've been trying to plant more HL where I am (there's already plenty of BL), because they make an excellent (free) livestock feed and because they also provide an massive quantity of edible beans (and pods) for people as well. The beans are quite large to and I imagine with a sheller (though I doubt anyone makes one that would work on HL) you could easily get enough beans to feed yourself for a year off just a few trees. Their texture is weird though, so marketability might be a bit tricky.

So on the HL vs BL debate, I'm on the both side of the issue. HL provides more food quantity (and quality in my opinion), N fixation (no root nodules, but scientific studies indicate that its roots contain N fixing bacteria in them, probably a more primitive form then nodules and not as effective, but still fixes N) and free nails, would also make an excellent upper story of a hedge row (or living fence). BL provides food, (better) N fixation and better (longer lasting) wood.

Though if I had to choose only one I'd go with HL.

John Polk wrote:This is what JL Hudson has to say about thornless HL

—Gleditsia triacanthos inermis. (d,h) GLED-10N. Packet: $2.00
Oz: $6.00, 1/4 lb: $18.00
'THORNLESS HONEYLOCUST'. Thornlessness is a genetically dominant trait and comes
true from seed. Other than lack of thorns, this tree has all of the fine
properties of the thorny kind.

It's actually kind of unfortunate that thornless is a dominant trait. It seems it would be far easier to breed out a dominant trait than it is to breed out a recessive trait. Though the thorns have some advantages, for example a (thorned) HL tree could be grown in a livestock pasture and you'd never have to worry about the animals killing the tree (well maybe you would when it was a seedling), and the HL would provide feed (and shade) to the animals in that pasture.

Might be a good first step towards permaculture tool for conventional farmers that keep their cattle/goats/sheep in a pasture setting with few/no trees.

Philip Green wrote:
Though if I had to choose only one I'd go with HL.

I've decided not to choose - I planted both.

Ive been collecting the seeds of both in Paris lately, mostly honeylocust. Great to hear that the thorns aren't dominant...as badass of a hedge that would be, I never saw thorns on the trunks of the honeylocust like in the photos, but the branches did have some. The pods would be a perfect treat for pigs or cows...and they are sweet inside. A good animal food/fast grower/nitro-fixer/less shady tree. I see MANY more black locusts here though - about 100 to 1. They have thorns on the branches and many are 60 feet tall here...very beautiful trees and make great chicken food in the fall. If people could collect all those smaller seedpods and save them for chickens later through the fall...could be great.

I took a nail file to the seeds and it worked..make sure the seeds are dry though when filing otherwise it will ruin mom's cheapo nail file lol

No seed chilling period either..started right up from 2012 seed. I really want to start large amounts of them for borders and mother trees in new areas..the city of paris must have realized how fast they grow and how easy they are to care for...they call them "acacias" but they are black locusts for sure.

The seeds from a friend in vermont (black locust) do look a bit darker than the ones here but they are for sure the same tree...maybe a different cultivar? Not sure.

I've also been debating BL vs HL and I think I'm leaning towards both. They're both interesting and useful trees in their own rights.

We have wild BL here and I also have one honey Locust plant.  The HL grows very slowly, the BL are insanely fast growing.  I harvest both to dry for winter feed for my goats, being very careful to use gloves and avoid those nasty toxic thorns,  I usually hold the tip with one hand and grab leaves and bend downward to break off at the stem.  They dry easily.  if you prick yourself it gets very sore, so must be some kind of toxin in the thorn itself.  
Goats relish any the find growing in the pasture.  Apparently the toxins in them are neutralized by goat saliva, and they seem to enjoy many plants that would kill other livestock.  High protein, as they are a legume, and build up your soil, and even the dry leaves which compost naturally under the trees of either, make great amendment to add to your growing areas.  

I did some seed collecting a few years back on wild locust trees (good wood quality for a number of applications), and wanted to pass on a piece of advice to anyone that wants to collect/store the seed.  "Put it in glass jars!"  I just used simple disposable plastic cups to dry them in, and found that there is a bug larvae within some seeds that isn't visible until it matures & bores out of the seed (similar to corn).  Once out of the seed, it will continue to bore a perfectly round hole about the size of a BB through the side of the plastic cup through which it will escape.  One more plus for the basic glass jar.

Assuming you found 5-30x different thornless, straightish, pod heavy, and  fast growing HL. Wouldn't it be best to use root cuttings to propagate.

Seeds are wonderful to develop new trees, but that's a project. For use in silvopasture production we would want trees already proven winners like most orchards do.

All assuming HL root propagate as prodigiously as BL do. In fact a tree bed rototilled might be the best way to propagate them? Anyone

“Root cuttings appear to be the best method of reproducing desirable strains in large quantities at reasonable cost.”
https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/misc/ag_654/volume_2/gleditsia/triacanthos.htm#:~:text=Vegetative%20Reproduction%2D%20Honeylocust%20coppices%20freely,large%20quantities%20at%20reasonable%20cost.

“Rooting Habit- Honeylocust is deep rooted with a widely spreading and profusely branched root system and a strong taproot. Deep soils are penetrated as far as 3 to 6 m (10 to 20 ft). The root system is responsive to environmental conditions. For example, in a Missouri study, 4- to 6-year-old saplings on upland clay soil produced root systems that were about twice as long, with laterals covering twice the area, as those of older trees growing in lowland alluvial soil where the water table was higher (7). The generalized, well-developed root system enables this species to grow on both upland and lowland sites.”

The honeylocust has wide genetic variations that have enabled improvement through selection. The northern races show relatively good winter hardiness and southern races bear fruit that is much more nutritious for stock feeding than that found on the trees in the north (6).

The honeylocust has wide genetic variations that have enabled improvement through selection. The northern races show relatively good winter hardiness and southern races bear fruit that is much more nutritious for stock feeding than that found on the trees in the north (6).

A number of horticultural forms have been developed and are widely cultivated, especially for shade and as ornamentals (24). Thornless honeylocust (Gleditsia triacanthos var. inermis Willd.) is thornless, or nearly so, and slender in habit; bushy honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. elegantissima [Grosdemangel Rehd.) is unarmed and densely bushy; Bujot honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. bujotii [Neuml Rehd.) has slender pendulous branches and narrow leaflets; and dwarf honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. nana [Loud.] A. Henry) is a small compact shrub or tree. Selected cultivars of the thornless forms have been patented. About 60 percent of the seedlings grown from thornless honeylocust seed are thornless (7).

Gleditsia x texana Sarg., the Texas honeylocust, is considered to be a hybrid of G. aquatica Marsh. and G. triacanthos L. (24). Its range is largely restricted to the Brazos River bottoms in Texas, with additional trees found along the Red River in Louisiana and occasionally along the Mississippi River in Indiana and Mississippi.

USDA.  Suggests thornless HL are thinner... hmm trust the government or not...


Awesome shot of deer 🦌  HL pod association.
Huge HL crop
https://youtu.be/n1TPp4ehPzc?si=A15mSvnoxqBmXFE9

Does anyone know how either HL or BL do in clay soils with a high water table?  I have about 10 acres of such and want to turn into sylvopasture.  Probably go willow route but would prefer having HL & BLs for nitrogen and free sugar in the pods for my cattle.

"Black locust trees (Robinia pseudoacacia L) can grow in a variety of soil types. They can grow in dry, sandy, or boggy soil, as well as compacted soil. They can also grow in light (sandy), medium (loamy), and heavy (clay) soils, and in saline soils. Black locust trees prefer well-drained soil and can grow in nutritionally poor soil"

I'd visit all 3 all in NE and try to get stock / cuttings

I would look for heavy pod dropping trees for Cattle.. HL seem to do better in South. BL in better in north. Note that HL Millwood was developed in PA.
Need to find heavy pod BL.  if you find it let me know.
Virgina Tech has a 15-30? year study on Millwood HL

Akiva Silver Twisted Tree Nursery
Has the Hungarian Variety for best lumber ask him about pods
https://youtu.be/NUqSeAZPq34?si=yKstaa439b5LroAI

Edible Acres
https://youtu.be/s5tE-VeeW-k?si=334LCAnRR2fOMioI

Check out Stefan Sobkowiak
HL
https://youtu.be/UG7GXekQ1-8?si=4Otc76oTKAsm3Ieb
BL
https://youtu.be/XD3_5hKXAYI?si=cOYITnZYnHmRs_YD
https://youtu.be/_3HY3_kjn9g?si=Tfe-pI72oBlX1L2F

Hungarian Black Locust
Tons of research
23% of forest
Best for straight Lumber
Planting close together
Best Seed Hungarian
Twisted tree farm
Akiva Silver has them

Honey Locusts
Virginia tech research
Mid Atlantic South
Looks good warmer climate
Better drain soils in warmer sites
BL better in cooler and clay soil
Millwood
Pod heavy
Train molasses

https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/misc/ag_654/volume_2/gleditsia/triacanthos.htm#:~:text=Vegetative%20Reproduction%2D%20Honeylocust%20coppices%20freely,large%20quantities%20at%20reasonable%20cost.

“Rooting Habit- Honeylocust is deep rooted with a widely spreading and profusely branched root system and a strong taproot. Deep soils are penetrated as far as 3 to 6 m (10 to 20 ft). The root system is responsive to environmental conditions. For example, in a Missouri study, 4- to 6-year-old saplings on upland clay soil produced root systems that were about twice as long, with laterals covering twice the area, as those of older trees growing in lowland alluvial soil where the water table was higher (7). The generalized, well-developed root system enables this species to grow on both upland and lowland sites.”

The honeylocust has wide genetic variations that have enabled improvement through selection. The northern races show relatively good winter hardiness and southern races bear fruit that is much more nutritious for stock feeding than that found on the trees in the north (6).

The honeylocust has wide genetic variations that have enabled improvement through selection. The northern races show relatively good winter hardiness and southern races bear fruit that is much more nutritious for stock feeding than that found on the trees in the north (6).

A number of horticultural forms have been developed and are widely cultivated, especially for shade and as ornamentals (24). Thornless honeylocust (Gleditsia triacanthos var. inermis Willd.) is thornless, or nearly so, and slender in habit; bushy honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. elegantissima [Grosdemangel Rehd.) is unarmed and densely bushy; Bujot honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. bujotii [Neuml Rehd.) has slender pendulous branches and narrow leaflets; and dwarf honeylocust (G. triacanthos var. nana [Loud.] A. Henry) is a small compact shrub or tree. Selected cultivars of the thornless forms have been patented. About 60 percent of the seedlings grown from thornless honeylocust seed are thornless (7).

Gleditsia x texana Sarg., the Texas honeylocust, is considered to be a hybrid of G. aquatica Marsh. and G. triacanthos L. (24). Its range is largely restricted to the Brazos River bottoms in Texas, with additional trees found along the Red River in Louisiana and occasionally along the Mississippi River in Indiana and Mississippi.

BL
https://www.fs.usda.gov/database/feis/plants/tree/robpse/all.html#IMPORTANCE%20TO%20WILDLIFE%20AND%20LIVESTOCK

And check out Steve Gaberial
https://youtu.be/gJ9G66pluqA?si=mH96G3I-k0mNlehH

Austin Unruh
https://youtu.be/IK-1tWdt420?si=Ik3ldJRqEP4OptaT

Jeff Marchand wrote:Does anyone know how either HL or BL do in clay soils with a high water table?  I have about 10 acres of such and want to turn into sylvopasture.  Probably go willow route but would prefer having HL & BLs for nitrogen and free sugar in the pods for my cattle.

I find the notion of nitrogen fixers to be a baffling subject.

If a person does some research it might be concluded that willows are more of a nitrogen fixer than honey locust.

Anne, could you elaborate on what you find baffling? If you were new to permies.com I would launch into an explanation about plants in the legume family and symbiotic nitrogen fixing bacteria. But you are one of the least 'new' people on this site.  How do you propose that willows fix nitrogen?  

Anne Miller wrote:
I find the notion of nitrogen fixers to be a baffling subject.
If a person does some research it might be concluded that willows are more of a nitrogen fixer than honey locust.

Agreed! Particularly if you used a Bush Willow and the Livestock coppiced it several times a year.  I know the debate around HL Nitrogen Fixation exists but haven't seen anything conclusive. but only the promise of it... for greater than a decade now.  I went through V Tech site who has a a very long study going and i don't see anything yet.

What is the source of the nitrogen?

Jeff Marchand wrote:Does anyone know how either HL or BL do in clay soils with a high water table?  I have about 10 acres of such and want to turn into sylvopasture.  Probably go willow route but would prefer having HL & BLs for nitrogen and free sugar in the pods for my cattle.

You could use an artificial pit and mound technique to help them establish. Digging a hole and mounding to plant the black locust into.  Giving it some dry feet.  Hole attracts water, nutrients and cold air.  Backhoe... 1-2-3 shoves push down middle and scoot.  Akiva Silver covers pit and mound similar to a Swale. Swale work but takes more time.
https://www.twisted-tree.net/new-page


Also Consider Willow Nfx (Nitrogen fixing) as a great fodder and will help to dry up that land.  

Others to consider
Alder 100’ x 40’ Nfx (many kinds) [Likes wet feet) [Cuttings Easy]
PawPaw Great Forage You might barely be in the zone
Maples
Hackberry
Dogwood
Winterberry
Chokeberry
White Oak  
Pin Oak  
Shumard Oak
Swamp Oak
Sawtooth oak
English Oak

Jeff Marchand wrote:What is the source of the nitrogen?

It is a bacteria.

Jeff Marchand wrote:What is the source of the nitrogen?

Some plants and trees fix Nitrogen using photosynthesis.

78% of air is Nitrogen

32,000 tons of atmospheric Nitrogen above every acre
It’s there and free
With microbes
biology
Legumes
soil scientists are discovering there's Azotobacter bacteria and all these types of biology that actually have the ability to take that nitrogen out of the atmosphere and make it available to the plants.
Rhizobium is the type of bacteria which is found in the roots of leguminous plants and converts atmospheric nitrogen into nitrates
Nitrogen-fixing bacteria are prokaryotic microorganisms

Many people believe that properly managed permaculture never requires Nitrogen inputs.

Yes, I know about the symbiotic relationship between legumes and bacteria.  Locusts are in the legume family so I understand how they fix nitrogen.  Willows are not .

"We studied whether plant diversity affects soil C and N storage in the absence of legumes. In an 11-year grassland biodiversity experiment without legumes, we measured soil C and N stocks. We further determined above-ground biomass productivity, standing root biomass, soil organic matter decomposition and N mineralization rates to understand the mechanisms underlying the change in soil C and N stocks in relation to plant diversity and their feedbacks to plant productivity.
We found that soil C and N stocks increased by 18% and 16% in eight-species mixtures compared to the average of monocultures of the same species, respectively. Increased soil C and N stocks were mainly driven by increased C input and N retention, resulting from enhanced plant productivity, which surpassed enhanced C loss from decomposition. Importantly, higher soil C and N stocks were associated with enhanced soil N mineralization rates, which can explain the strengthening of the positive diversity–productivity relationship observed in the last years of the experiment.
Synthesis. We demonstrated that also in the absence of legumes, plant species richness promotes soil carbon (C) and nitrogen (N) stocks via increased plant productivity. In turn, enhanced soil C and N stocks showed a positive feedback to plant productivity via enhanced N mineralization, which could further accelerate soil C and N storage in the long term."

Quoted by Allen Williams
Cong J Ecology 2014
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2745.12280

I see no reason not to believe that Willows would in presence of other plants with their deeper roots not drive Nfx.

Jeff Marchand wrote:Yes, I know about the symbiotic relationship between legumes and bacteria.  Locusts are in the legume family so I understand how they fix nitrogen.  Willows are not .

"Evidence for Nitrogen Fixation in the Salicaceae (Willow) Family
Georg von Wuehlisch
Johann Heinrich von Thuenen-Institute, Institute for Forest Genetics, Sieker Landstrasse 2,
22927 Grosshansdorf, Germany
E-mail: georg.vonwuehlisch@vti.bund.de
Poplar (Populus sp.) and willow (Salix sp.) species are early-successional trees with rapid growth, deep roots, and the ability to grow fast, even in nutrient-poor environments. Studies of poplars growing on rocks and gravel in their native riparian habitat were found to have sufficient amounts of N in their tissues, a finding, which was difficult to explain (Coleman et al., 1994, Lawrence et al., 1997). The explanation for the indifference of poplar towards soil N availability has been found recently, which this paper will focus on.

In addition to the legumes, there are woody plant species of nine Families
(Betulaceae Cannabaceae, Casuarinaceae, Coriariaceae, Datiscaceae, Elaeagnaceae, Myricaceae, Rhamnaceae, and Rosaceae) known to associate with other N fixing microbes, among them Frankia and these too live in specialized root nodules. Well known is Alnus of the Betulaceae.

They could show that a strain of the endophytic bacteria Burkholderia vietnamensis isolated from a wild-grown Populus trichocarpa tree was able to fix 15N2 by a twentyfold higher concentration of this isotope as compared to normal air. This experiment can be accepted as a proof of N fixation of an endophyte associated with poplar. "

[Same bacteria found in Willow] as Anne indicated

"P. trichocarpa Salix Burkholderia, Rahnella, culture on N-free medium Doty et al. (2009) sitchensis Enterobacter, Acinetobacter, PCR with nifH primeracetylene reduction assay."

Pdf downloadable
Willow Fixes Nitrogen.
Which is easy to believe from its growth capacity.

I haven't read this in a while, but it is a relevant to this discussion:

Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture

It's an older book (1930s), and many of the specific varieties are not available or hard to get hold of, but is still very interesting.

Michael Cox wrote:I haven't read this in a while, but it is a relevant to this discussion:

Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture

It's an older book (1930s), and many of the specific varieties are not available or hard to get hold of, but is still very interesting.

Reading  this book now - he  raves about honey locust. I would love to try raising hogs under the crops he profiles - a mulberry/honey locust/persimmon/oak/pecan run would be great and most of those grow wild in my area.

My property is loaded with black locust, but they are so crowded by privet that they seem to be putting all their energy into vertical growth and not into pods.

My Nigerian Dwarf goats devour the leaves and bark with gusto (and no ill effects) so I think the toxicity is overstated.

I have some honey locust on my property but no black locust.  I wish it were the reverse.

I am sure that the wood has similar heating value and rot resistance, but black locust (BL) has thorns more like a rose bush (short) while honey locust has wicked, nasty, 2”-3” long incredibly sharp thorns.  I was once out bush hogging and I accidentally drove over a small stick of HL.  It was so small that it should have been trivial. However,  the stick had a nearly 90 degree bend and as I drove over, part of it flipped up and a 3” thorn stuck right in the sidewall of my front tractor tire!  There was no saving it and I barely made it back to my house before the tire slipped all the way off the rim.  It cost about $300.

So I could do without the HL, but BL sounds interesting.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:I have some honey locust on my property but no black locust.  I wish it were the reverse.

I am sure that the wood has similar heating value and rot resistance, but black locust (BL) has thorns more like a rose bush (short) while honey locust has wicked, nasty, 2”-3” long incredibly sharp thorns.  I was once out bush hogging and I accidentally drove over a small stick of HL.  It was so small that it should have been trivial. However,  the stick had a nearly 90 degree bend and as I drove over, part of it flipped up and a 3” thorn stuck right in the sidewall of my front tractor tire!  There was no saving it and I barely made it back to my house before the tire slipped all the way off the rim.  It cost about $300.

So I could do without the HL, but BL sounds interesting.

Eric

BL thorns aren't too bad - half an inch seems to be the extent of them. Once you get one established, you'll have them forever - they are extremely vigorous and prolific. Privet is the only thing that can outcompete it on my land.

Sam,

That’s what I hear about BL.  Yes, it has thorns, but they are not the end of the world.  I hope that was the message I was conveying.  

Eric