I made my J out of steel did I fail?

Chris Carn wrote:So I'm still having issues and looking for great advice once again.   Thank you for any help you can give.

I went back and did a quick scan, but did not see, what is your measurement from the top of the riser to the top of your barrel?  With things so tight around the inside of the barrel, this is even more critical to have enough space.   If you are in good excess of the dia. of your riser, then perhaps not as much as a issue as to your problem, Doesn't look like you have great deal extra, but hard to tell by photos.

Hi Chris,
Hard to tell from your picture, but the manifold (transition area where the horizontal exhaust pipe meets the base of the barrel) looks like a pinch point to me. The larger it is the better.

Gerry, if you are talking about the most recent photo, that is the underground exhaust leading to the outdoor chimney.

My take on improving heat retention there would be to just surround the exhaust with perlite after cleaning everything out to the concrete trough. That will have insulation value even if damp, and the trough will keep it in place. Cover it with something like a cap of sheetmetal formed to shed water off to the sides.

A length of double-wall insulated pipe would work great if you can get it cheap; it is extremely expensive new.

Glenn Herbert wrote:Gerry, if you are talking about the most recent photo, that is the underground exhaust leading to the outdoor chimney.

Glenn....This picture here:

Scott Weinberg wrote:

Chris Carn wrote:So I'm still having issues and looking for great advice once again.   Thank you for any help you can give.

I went back and did a quick scan, but did not see, what is your measurement from the top of the riser to the top of your barrel?  With things so tight around the inside of the barrel, this is even more critical to have enough space.   If you are in good excess of the dia. of your riser, then perhaps not as much as a issue as to your problem, Doesn't look like you have great deal extra, but hard to tell by photos.

Well it has been a few days, and a couple have asked me, in detail what I meant. So for the sake of argument I will just suggest, and this is from personal experience from 15 years ago, and of course what Peterburg has said many times, but folks still seem to fall into the dimension trap.

That is simple, if you have a 6" system (150mm) you should have at least 6" (150mm) between top of riser and the ceiling of your bell or barrel.  Doesn't hurt at all if you have MORE,  and more might even be better.

Same goes for all sizes, such as 7" (180mm)  need at least the same or more 7" - 180mm,  between end and ceiling.

If you want to visualize this, think of a fan blowing down a tube, with your hand a few inches from the end,  causing resistance.  Then pull your hand much further away,  shazam,  almost no resistance.  

Best of success.

It didn't show that people responded. Thank you for more input, i've been fighting with this thing and it's getting worse, but I'm going to open up more area below the bell, I think ground water might be leaching into the mass from the rains, the mass isn't getting hot, once and a while I'll hit 80s then drop, when it's 50s outside in the green house..but still getting steam, wet pipes and Ive been heating it up for months, a few times hitting 1000 degree at the top of the barrel but only if I have a duct fan drawing to try to dry things, what is the normal top center part of the barrel running on other people's barrel at when in prime heat? Thank you again for the help, I'm about to start over or give up  in a house just the barrel could be efficient but in a greenhouse it's not doing anything thus far.

My 8" J ran 800F constantly and I could push it to 1100F.

Chris Carn wrote:It didn't show that people responded. Thank you for more input, i've been fighting with this thing and it's getting worse, but I'm going to open up more area below the bell, I think ground water might be leaching into the mass from the rains, the mass isn't getting hot, once and a while I'll hit 80s then drop, when it's 50s outside in the green house..but still getting steam, wet pipes and Ive been heating it up for months, a few times hitting 1000 degree at the top of the barrel but only if I have a duct fan drawing to try to dry things, what is the normal top center part of the barrel running on other people's barrel at when in prime heat? Thank you again for the help, I'm about to start over or give up  in a house just the barrel could be efficient but in a greenhouse it's not doing anything thus far.

Chris, I am going to ask a few direct questions:

[b]When you say, it didn't show people hadn't responded to your post, that would seem correct, what I meant was they responded to me and what I said (privately) .  But you did not respond, so I still don't have your answer to my question. But you did say the following below.   About a month ago.

And I quote:[/b]

"So after lots of work, the thing doesn't work, the mass does not heat up,it smokes, I added more insulation to the riser, raised the riser to two inches from the barrel from three inches.."

If I was to write a perfect prescription for any stove NOT TO WORK and smoke, no matter how well the fire box is designed, and that would be to have a restriction beyond the riser.  2" from the barrel or even 3" is a restriction for sure.

To me, this is now saying, you raised your riser, to NOW TWO inches from the barrel?  If I am reading that right, your going the wrong way.. if you re-read my post or others that have built similar systems.  A 6" system really needs at least a 6" gap,  a 7"  at least 7"   and so on.  MORE is even better.   Read my post on the fan thing, not long ago..  Trying to get this to work with such a tight gap, is trying to force your draft against a nearly blocked exit..

so a bit more as long as we are on this subject of a build,  And I am sorry I missed it. But you asked about making a connection between two barrels,  if you have two barrels that have a banded top lid like the you showed.  Cut the bottom out of one barrel,  and this end will now be UP, (as your bottom barrel)  and with your second barrel, take the lid off, and put the top DOWN,  so the bottom of the bottom barrel (is now the up)  and the top of the top barrel is down, they almost always make a perfect match for the band.  Done deal. You can seal with a 1" wide band of super wool under the band.

while I have never had the room,  I am pretty sure you could have an entire barrel (3 ft or so) above the top of the riser and without further restrictions, you will have a HOT HOT barrel bell set up. Some one did a 3 barrel set up and you know they didn't have a riser that tall.

You also said:
.added Double 6 pipes in the mass for more area....the mass doesn't heat up, I even added a variable speed fan at the chimney to help draw but seems I've waisted more money than what my steel j had cost..would love some advice but seems the projects another expensive failure unfortunately....

What I have suggested, would not cost anything, as you had the barrels already.  I have no need for instant heat so I have a 4000#+ brick bell, but I can melt copper in minutes, (in my batch box fire chamber)  or make my secondary air duct turn red in 40-50 minutes from a cold start.  or a bar near the rear port, glow read in 10 minutes after the fire is going. All of which easily will make for a 800 degree barrel like Tom from Dragon Tech suggested.

I will stop with these suggestions till I know exactly what you meant by the 2 to 3" thing in connection to your riser.

Correction

Like I said, I don't mind being corrected, I will take back my recommendation on the J-tube clearance from riser to barrel clearance.

I will stand by those numbers for a batch box set up of the same size.   Two different beast.

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All the original info called for 6" to run a 2" clearance!
It was determined after Batchboxes started being produced that running a J-Tube tight really did not improve temps and the fly ash buildup often reduced the gap to one inch!  Word got put out that 3-4" was a much better gap. Barrel top temps lowered some but heat to the piped mass was improved.
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So yes, this is different than what I suggested and will then suggest, it is still a draft problem, (if smoke is present and the barrel not getting hot) but I will stay out of the suggestion box on this unit as it varies in so many ways from my personal experience.   As my J-tubes were always barrel set ups with no bench and my single brick bell, with no bench is a 7"  so simply different.

I will say, if you have a lazy, casual fire in any unit that smokes a fair amount, it will be hard pressed to have a very hot bell as the gasses cool off quickly.

Best of success.
Scott

You read it right about me rising it to two inches, I'm taking your advice and going the other way thank you for the advice...when I wrote it didn't show any response I meant I didn't get I email that usually comes when people write to my post, I would have wrote back sooner. Thanks for the help I will readjust and then repost my results.

Can someone add a link to the cheapest efficient 5 minute riser post to this, I'm going to take out the riser and replace it, I have 1 1/2  ceramic insulation but it doesn't make sense how I'm fighting to gain heat and also  the smoke I'm getting after having it burning for 2 hours+...the unburned smoke should be burning I imagine once I get the burn tube past 1200 degrees?

Here you go, https://permies.com/t/95849/Working-Morgan-Superwool-ceramic-blanket