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rocket mass heaters

Working with Morgan Superwool Plus ceramic blanket

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi All;

After learning earlier this summer about the radical difference between refractory ceramic blanket ( very hazardous) and non refractory ceramic blanket(Morgan superwool plus) not hazardous!
I purchased 12.5' of non hazardous 1" blanket.

Our friend and fellow rocket scientist Eric Hammond had a horrible experience working with the refractory blanket ! He hated it ! Worse than any fiberglass, he thought a full tyvek suit and respirator should be used.

Today I worked with non refractory blanket ! Sweet ! Easy to cut, like working with a nice thick blanket! Single edge razor blade slid thru like butter. If I had known the exact size I needed to cut it really would have taken five minutes to build my five minute riser.

For those wanting to build an 8" riser . I started out cutting a 31" piece , 10" x 3.14 = 31" for the true I.D. With 1" thick material I first cut back to 29" then 28.5" and finally 28" even. I did have a few spots on the seam where I stuffed a thin trim piece in but only from my less than perfectly straight cuts.

I used a stainless tie wire to make sure my stove pipe stays snapped together.

This riser is now ready to install ! How sweet it is !

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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"Key health properties
The key health property of all Superwool
® products, including the latest member of the family, is
that any fibres that might be breathed in and reach the lungs are rapidly removed. This characteristic
is referred to as low bio-persistence. As a consequence fibres do not accumulate in the lung,
preventing the occurrence of any significant inflammatory effect that might affect the lungs. Low
bio-persistence is achieved by producing the fibres that are a glassy material, which partially
corrodes and then fragments when it comes into contact with the fluids found in the lungs."

http://www.morganthermalceramics.com/media/1141/english-superwool_brochure_single_pages.pdf

Well, that's the claim. What's the cost?

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Well that's the catch to this wonderful product... cost was $69.00 for 12.5' plus $59.00 shipping ! Normally they sell 25' roll for $129.00 plus 59.00 shipping. I requested a custom cut. They made it, but I paid full price on shipping.

There are other manufacturers of similar product that are readily available in Europe. Superwool was the easiest to locate here.

I have no regrets about the cost, the ease of use is amazing!

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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Maybe you should have got the whole roll and acted as a regional supplier for Rocket Mass builders locally!

Caleb Mayfield

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posted 6 years ago

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Nice riser Thomas! I did mine yesterday using material from Morgan. I definitely did not have Eric's experience. I did not use the stainless wire like you did, but I might add it. I've done a few test burns and it has been fantastic. I do think I'm going to pull my top drum and do a visual on it. I'll be posting about that in my build thread.

James 1:19-20
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thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Thank you Caleb!
I am very pleased with the superwool, it was a joy to work with.
If you have access to stainless tie wire (steel tie wire I think would melt) I highly recommend using it. It's cheap insurance that your stove pipe doesn't decide to spring apart mid burn someday down the road...
Looking forward to your next posts on your build.

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Mark Brunnr

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posted 6 years ago

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You should actually be ok with the wire not melting when used outside the riser buy inside the barrel, as the temperature drops a lot as the gasses hit the barrel top. Many people have used chicken wire to wrap around their insulation and it has worked well.

I plan to make a 6" system with the 5 minute riser design, using a 8" duct. I would give myself an extra inch clearance between the riser and barrel in case any ash accumulates on top of the superwool.

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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Matt Walker wraps his ceramic board risers with kitchen tin foil. The Aprovecho people also suggested wrapping tin foil over the insulation of their cores to reduce heat loss by infrared radiation.

Eric Hammond

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posted 6 years ago

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I'm glad to hear of the success with the morgan superwool! I wish I had known the difference when doing mine! I would have spent the extra money to get a safer product for sure! Live and learn......I will use the rest of my roll up, and it will function fine I'm sure, but I will be bitter about it for awhile! I learn something new everyday.

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi All;
I finally rolled out my superwool today and cut off the 58" I will need to replace our studio rmh riser next spring. I have 34" left over that I can use now as needed.

I have found an excellent use for some of that extra morgan blanket and some extra ceramic board as well.

I am building a new brick bell rmh in my shop. I am working with bricks of 3 different sizes... Firebrick is longer and thicker. My old clay brick is from the turn of the century so sizes are variable and then I have brand new clay brick , very uniform in size ...of course its smaller yet than the others...
It has been a real adventure trying to join bricks of different sizes together and filling in the odd spots.
Enter Morgan Superwool ! Mine is 1" thick but easily cut thinner, the perfect thing to raise the level of bricks to where they need to be. Ceramic board is 1" thick and fits tightly anyplace you have a trouble spot!
Using these products in this way is making my build much easier!
I cut 4 small triangles of blanket and stuffed them around the base of my riser to seal it up... no fireclay needed!
Needed a 1" rise over the ash door ... morgan superwool to the rescue!
I am going to use CF blanket under my barrel along with fireclay to help seal it up!
Great stuff I'm enjoying working with it!

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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Does it shrink at all with time?

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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I don't believe so Graham. This is the first time I am using it, but they use this in refinery's as insulation .. it better not shrink!
Also all the innovators are using this in many ways , they would have reported if any shrinkage was happening.

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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http://www.morganthermalceramics.com/media/1517/4_classification_temperature_sept_14.pdf

I think it says the Superwool plus has 4% shrinkage at 1200 deg C ??

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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We are safe then ! 1200 C = 2192 F To my knowledge RMH have not reached those temperatures .. YET !

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Gerry Parent

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posted 6 years ago

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Hey Thomas, Lookin' good!.... and thanks for the infomercial on Super Wool! .... I'm sure every mason is cringing, but it could just end up being the new duct tape of the RMH world?? ;)

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thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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LOL Gerry; Any real mason is so busy laughing he won't care about me filling gaps...
This stuff is the real deal for lots of things. I used pieces of the CF board to fill gaps in the bricks. Like the exposed wool, I'll just smear some clay over it and you'll never see it.

So, think I could get Morgan to pay me for this highly informative infomercial ??? You know just Royalty's per viewing ???

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Graham Chiu

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posted 6 years ago

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If you don't mind being paid in apples!

Mark Brunnr

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posted 6 years ago

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Thomas or anyone else have a link to a US seller, that is actually selling Superwool and not Kaowool (also by Morgan, but not the same product)? I'm searching around and not finding pages with it for sale, just the info sheets. I have barrels and some bricks and want to build a test system (no real use when you live in zone 11...) and play with it, and the 5 minute riser is the way to go for me. I figure a roll of 1" thick, 24" wide by 12 feet or longer should be a good amount to start. Thanks!

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Phil Gardener

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posted 6 years ago

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Well, https://www.axner.com/superwoolfiber-1thicksoldpersqft.aspx lists it, and the price seems good, but their shipping estimates seem totally off target! Are you looking at ceramics supply places?

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi Mark; I got mine thru Ebay. Seller only listed very short or full roll of superwool plus. I wrote and they gave me a quote on 12.5' shipped to my house. That seller is called True patriot. I am going to try to link to the item, http://www.ebay.com/usr/true_patriot?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2754 That listing says it is for 1/2" but my quote was on 1".Cost to me delivered was $129.98
Write to the seller and ask for a quote. I first tried another who responded once and then never again ?? True Patriot responded quickly and although he didn't cut the cost of shipping at all, he did 1/2 the cost from a 25' roll.

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Phil Grady

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Location: mid Ohio, 40.318626 -83.766931

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posted 6 years ago

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i was thinking about using the heat insulation blanket as the liner but using the Kaowool sleeves as the outer rather than the sheet metal, I know the sleeves have an
inner dia of 9 inch with the 1 inch blanket it should reduce to between 7 - 8 inch ID
the idea is to use the blankets to hold the sleeves together and the sleeves to add rigidity to the blanket.

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Gerry Parent

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi Mark, Matt Walker has put out a video describing the places to find materials...perhaps his info could be of help you: Rocket Stove Materials Sourcing, Ceramic Fiber, Refractory, Masonry, Glass, etc.

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Ralph Kettell

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posted 6 years ago

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thomas rubino wrote:Well that's the catch to this wonderful product... cost was $69.00 for 12.5' plus $59.00 shipping ! Normally they sell 25' roll for $129.00 plus 59.00 shipping. I requested a custom cut. They made it, but I paid full price on shipping.

There are other manufacturers of similar product that are readily available in Europe. Superwool was the easiest to locate here.

I have no regrets about the cost, the ease of use is amazing!

Hi Thomas,

What is the width of the material you purchased?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Ralph

Sincerely,
Ralph

thomas rubino

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Posts: 6313

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi Ralph; 24" wide 1" thick x 12.5' long morgan superwool plus

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Ralph Kettell

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posted 6 years ago

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thomas rubino wrote:Hi Ralph; 24" wide 1" thick x 12.5' long morgan superwool plus

Thanks, Thomas that was my guess but wanted to make sure as I have seen some folks sell a similar product in 12" or 16" wide.

Sincerely,
Ralph

thomas rubino

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posted 5 years ago

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Hi All;
Popped the lid on my barrel this morning. Wanted to see how my five minute riser was looking.

This ceramic blanket is just awesome ! No signs of anything but perfect combustion! Even the thin strips I added to fill in are in perfect shape!

I also used this blanket to seal my masonry to the barrel and to seal the concrete board as well. Not one leak anyplace where I used the ceramic blanket .
I did patch a few spots of cob where the cement board sits on top of the bricks.

I also need to do some repair at the feed tube. I thought I was gentle but apparently not...
Considering the lower temps at the feed tube. I may wait till summer and then use a concrete mix to rebuild the bricks rather than clay.

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Graham Chiu

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posted 5 years ago

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Thomas, what are you using to hold the wool in shape?

thomas rubino

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Hi Graham;
With the 1" thick blanket, it is self supporting. Even the thin strips I filled in with are just sitting there.
Having never used a five minute riser before , I wanted a look see just to confirm that it was still perfect.

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Graham Chiu

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posted 5 years ago

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So it looks like you're just twist tying some wire to prevent it from unfolding? If I'd known that worked, I wouldn't have gone to the bother of buying metal mesh to wrap around mine!

thomas rubino

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posted 5 years ago

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Well... it is inside a 10" snap lock hvac pipe. The tie wire is a safety on the off chance the pipe unsnapped. Really not much chance of that happening but better safe than sorry.

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Eric Hammond

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Hey Thomas, I rebuilt my feed tube with a refractory mortar. It cracked a bunch but didnt get loose. Once the cob was around the bricks I was good. I suspect that the refractory mortar would have failed just like the clay did without outside support.

You might brainstorm and see if you could pour 1 or two inch concrete / grout around the feed tube for support

thomas rubino

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Hi Eric;

I have several ideas.
1) repair the clay on my current feed tube and then build a new course of brick using mortar mix and surround the existing feed.

2) pull apart the current feed and use a mortar mix to rebuild it.

3)repair the clay and pour concrete around the outside. Should work... but who wants ugly concrete near my beautiful brick dragon.

I'm leaning towards #1 as I just like the look of old brick.

#2 has merit as #1 may end up looking "funky" with a double row of brick. And that double row may not have the strength to support the originals as it will not be tied into the main bell...

Possably #2 and then suround that with a second row also mortared...

Ah well, nothing is getting changed till summer.

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Jason Broom

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posted 5 years ago

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Phil Gardener wrote:Well, https://www.axner.com/superwoolfiber-1thicksoldpersqft.aspx lists it, and the price seems good, but their shipping estimates seem totally off target! Are you looking at ceramics supply places?

For those still following this thread, the eBay seller may have heard our concerns, as he is now listing the Morgan Superwool Plus 1" thick blanket material in 24"x28" pieces for $34 with "free" shipping.

If I understand what was posted originally, two of those pieces would allow you to make a 48" tall riser with an 8" ID, inside of a piece of 10" stovepipe.

thomas rubino

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Sweet ! $68 and a stick of thin wall pipe for a five minute riser ! Heck a sack of fireclay at 10 bucks, a bag of perlite at 20 bucks , outer form barrel 10 bucks, inner form 10 bucks, And the time to mix and make a Walker style riser. The cost of a five minute riser is coming down.

That actually is a slightly higher price than I paid to get 12.5'. But I wanted to build two risers and have extra blanket to use while building my brick bell.

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Jody Vanden

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posted 4 years ago

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Mark Brunnr wrote:You should actually be ok with the wire not melting when used outside the riser buy inside the barrel, as the temperature drops a lot as the gasses hit the barrel top. Many people have used chicken wire to wrap around their insulation and it has worked well.

I plan to make a 6" system with the 5 minute riser design, using a 8" duct. I would give myself an extra inch clearance between the riser and barrel in case any ash accumulates on top of the superwool.

how did you go Mark? is the 8" tube enough for a 6" rocket stove? or is too big? how tall is your tube inside the barrel?

Any other feedback on this riser type? something not expected after 1 year?
planning on changing my brick riser which is not tall enough and insulated with vermiculite which might not help to have a nice burn in the barrel.
thanks

Mark Brunnr

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Yes it is, we actually made one at the ATC last July at Wheaton Labs, it took more time fishing the fiber blanket out of storage than to make it. The interior isn't as smooth as firebrick, there are little ripples as you are fitting flat material into a circle, but it looks pretty good to me and was producing a clean burn. We were testing risers for upgrading the water heater for the showers. I didn't see any deformations or charring after use, and I'm assuming it's still sitting up there for use.

Cutting the blanket at 26" allows you to fit it in tight and tuck the cut edge together in an 8" pipe for a 6" system, and if a touch of trimming is needed to fit you can always remove a lot easier than add. My system will be 8" (dry fitted in the back yard for now) because my hand/arm is too big to fit a 6" system properly. Using large cutting shears/scissors is the way to go for me, over a utility knife. I'm now trying to find a reasonably priced source for insulated firebrick, I had a bunch of dense firebricks and halves, but want to use insulated ones for the sides and top of the burn tunnel and bridge.

Edit: the interface where the burn tunnel bricks and the square opening meet the round riser is a point where the metal pipe could be exposed to high heat, I'd make sure that you use bricks cut and fitted so that no metal is exposed to direct heat. Some will cob a few bricks around the riser to hold it in place with friction, so perhaps a layer of fiber blanket cut to shape that the riser sits on would help too?

Edit2: users at Donkey's forums https://donkey32.proboards.com/ have been using the 5 minute riser for several years now, all reports I've seen is they are holding up great.

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Mark Brunnr

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Jason Broom wrote:

Phil Gardener wrote:Well, https://www.axner.com/superwoolfiber-1thicksoldpersqft.aspx lists it, and the price seems good, but their shipping estimates seem totally off target! Are you looking at ceramics supply places?

For those still following this thread, the eBay seller may have heard our concerns, as he is now listing the Morgan Superwool Plus 1" thick blanket material in 24"x28" pieces for $34 with "free" shipping.

If I understand what was posted originally, two of those pieces would allow you to make a 48" tall riser with an 8" ID, inside of a piece of 10" stovepipe.

I just checked that link again, and the price/tax/shipping is still great, 2'x6' piece shows for $50 delivered including shipping and tax.

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Gerry Parent

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posted 4 years ago

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Mark, Not sure if I'm seeing this right but when I entered in a quantity of 14 which should equate to a 2'x6' piece, I get a $4.95 handling fee and then when I select shipping of Fex-Ex (" I understand that due to the dimensional size of the Superwool, this item can only ship via FedEx") I get a shipping charge of $51.21

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thomas rubino

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I just popped over to ebay.
I found this https://www.ebay.com/itm/SuperWool-Non-Ceramic-Fiber-Blanket-1-6-dens-Superwool-Plus/142871948003?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESP

That is 25' of 1" thick 24" wide #6 density for $72.00 + shipping. For me was $30.

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Gerry Parent

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Thanks for the link Thomas. I think the best deal I've seen so far and so much left over to continue to build more! Unfortunately, when I got to the checkout, they said no delivery to Canada. Bummer.

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