• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • r ranson
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • paul wheaton
  • Liv Smith
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
gardeners:
  • Nancy Reading
  • Beau Davidson
  • Heather Sharpe

Working with Morgan Superwool Plus ceramic blanket

 
Posts: 11
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mark Brunnr wrote:
Edit: the interface where the burn tunnel bricks and the square opening meet the round riser is a point where the metal pipe could be exposed to high heat, I'd make sure that you use bricks cut and fitted so that no metal is exposed to direct heat. Some will cob a few bricks around the riser to hold it in place with friction, so perhaps a layer of fiber blanket cut to shape that the riser sits on would help too?



exactly what I was looking for. I was like how will the metal not be in contact with the heat at the bottom!
I think I found for people in France the correct one Superwook 2" for 23euros + 16.5eur shipping. so 44 usd all together. looks cheap as when I check some links here
https://www.amazon.fr/Couverture-Fibre-C%C3%A9ramique-1000-610/dp/B00XMWI7AS
 
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Jody;  
Where the pipe sits on top of the square opening.  It is not exposed to more than several hundred degrees. The same temp your barrel side is running.
The real heat, 1500F  is inside the ceramic blanket. It insulates the metal pipe completely.  
I did box my riser in with a few bricks and stuff some pieces of blanket in the four corners, but the metal itself is already protected.

EDIT)   I just noticed your amazon add.   Your looking for 1" thick superwool not 2".  
 
pollinator
Posts: 331
47
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don’t think there is any problem using 2” that is what I use .
 
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
No, not a problem at all. Rather handy to have 2" around.  
But for a riser she would need a 10" pipe for her 6" riser.
After reading Matt Walkers site, even 1/2" blanket will work, but the 1" works well for pipe sizing.
 
Fox James
pollinator
Posts: 331
47
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well I know if you lay a single 1” piece on top of a cast pizza over it will too hot to touch, 2” will still be quite hot or just bearable to touch, that is why we use 4” of ceramic matting on top of an outdoor pizza oven.
I have a feeling that 2” will give a hotter burn, of course I have no real idea if it makes any difference from 1/2 inch but it seem to me that it just might?

 
gardener
Posts: 1186
323
3
trees wofati rocket stoves
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Perhaps it’s shipping to Canada vs USA where I’m at then.
 
Jody Vanden
Posts: 11
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

thomas rubino wrote:No, not a problem at all. Rather handy to have 2" around.  
But for a riser she would need a 10" pipe for her 6" riser.
After reading Matt Walkers site, even 1/2" blanket will work, but the 1" works well for pipe sizing.



Yeah but that's pretty much the only good quality I found that I can get in France. But I struggle finding a tube of 10 inch. I might have to do one with a sheet of metal with some rivets or screwed in. I think this might be the easiest solution for me :(

ps: yeah I know Jodie Foster is a girl, but I am not hehe I am different :)
 
Fox James
pollinator
Posts: 331
47
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Air conditioning spiral pipe is what I used, readily available in virtually any size and not expensive.
 
Posts: 27
Location: Zone 5b Ontario
1
3
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Gerry Parent wrote:Thanks for the link Thomas. I think the best deal I've seen so far and so much left over to continue to build more!  Unfortunately, when I got to the checkout, they said no delivery to Canada. Bummer.




I found this but no pricing without an account. I'm not sure they even sell direct. https://ca.brockwhite.com/product/2-0701693

I'm going to email them.
 
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: Westbridge, BC, Canada
445
building solar woodworking rocket stoves wood heat greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you for the link Dave.

Holy crap though....300 feet? That would be enough for 100 RMH's!

As an update to my earlier post, I managed to find a business just across the border that offers a postal service to provide an address for people like me. Should be arriving in a week or so.
 
Dave Gamper
Posts: 27
Location: Zone 5b Ontario
1
3
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Gerry Parent wrote:Thank you for the link Dave.

Holy crap though....300 feet? That would be enough for 100 RMH's!

As an update to my earlier post, I managed to find a business just across the border that offers a postal service to provide an address for people like me. Should be arriving in a week or so.



Glad you found a supplier, 300' would definitely be a group buy situation. I also contacted the manufacturer to see if there is a supplier in ontario.
 
Posts: 39
Location: Vermont, USA
16
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just received Superwool Plus in the mail today and spent much of the day trying to find 10" pipe to make my own 5-minute riser (for an 8" system). Couldn't find 10" anywhere locally!

Thomas, with your photos you say you're using 10" hvac pipe- does that pipe have to be anything special to handle the heat? People say it gets to about 600F inside the barrel?

Would this stuff last over the years?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-10-in-x-5-ft-Round-Metal-Duct-Pipe-CP10X60/100204114#

Everything else I see online is extremely expensive, like this...
https://www.northlineexpress.com/10-x-24-durablack-single-wall-black-stove-pipe-10dbk-24.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIstqSyfDr6wIV4oFbCh3v6A7BEAQYEiABEgLgcvD_BwE

Excited about the prospects, but frustrated so far!
-Richard
 
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Richard ; Build your own with sheet metal and a pop rivet gun. Or screws if you don't have a pop gun.
I did use hvac 10" on mine but it was the heavy wall trunk line pipe not the super lite transfer pipe.
 
Richard Kniffin
Posts: 39
Location: Vermont, USA
16
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I don't have any experience with sheet metal... what gauge would I need, what kind of store can I buy it at? Price estimate?

I'm guessing this 26 gauge stuff is too flimsy?- https://www.truevalue.com/shop/heating-cooling/fireplaces-wood-stoves/hvac-duct-furnace-pipe-fittings/furnace-pipe-26-ga-galvanized-10-x-24-in

Thanks for your time!
 
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You know Richard, I think you can use that.  26 gauge will not melt outside the riser.  
Sheet metal sheds heat as fast as it gets it.  The galvanizing could burn off if it maintains over 400 F . But if it did, it only does it once.
You should try to use a barrel with a clamp on lid. This makes riser inspection a 15 minute job
 
Richard Kniffin
Posts: 39
Location: Vermont, USA
16
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Interesting, thanks for the info. I found more 26 gauge stuff as well, much more expensive and I don't understand why!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-10-in-x-5-ft-26-Gauge-Spiral-Pipe-26SP10X60/205330699

The True Value pipe was 2' long for about $16, the spiral Home Depot pipe is 5' for $90.

My barrel does have a removable lid, so I can look inside easily. I want to be cautious since I'm new to just about ALL of this, but maybe I'll go with 26 ga and check it frequently. And perhaps burn off the galvanization ahead of time, outside.
 
Posts: 33
Location: Winslow, AR zone 7a
14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

thomas rubino wrote:Richard ; Build your own with sheet metal and a pop rivet gun. Or screws if you don't have a pop gun.
I did use hvac 10" on mine but it was the heavy wall trunk line pipe not the super lite transfer pipe.


I'll be using a plain sheet of stainless steel stitch screwed in a 10" tube, as I couldn't find 10" pipe in stock. My superwool arrived today, and though I ordered the 8#/sq ft, the whold 12 sq ft weighs just 16lbs.  So what exactly does that 8lb/sq ft mean? Anyone know?
Scale.jpg
Sixteen Pounds??
Sixteen Pounds??
SuperWool.jpg
SuperWool, 12 sq ft
SuperWool, 12 sq ft
 
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Laura;  
I believe it represents how dense it is, not it's actual weight.
Creating your own size pipe is sometimes easier and cheaper than buying larger sizes.
Your going to be very happy with your rebuild ... I know I sure am happy with ours!
 
Laura Kelly
Posts: 33
Location: Winslow, AR zone 7a
14
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

thomas rubino wrote:
Creating your own size pipe is sometimes easier and cheaper than buying larger sizes.



The metal I was working with was so thick, I could not bend it into anything near a 10" circle, so I scored it, bent it and made a sort of square ovoid.  I used the dimensions of my brick opening plus an inch all around for the wool and screwed it together.  It's rough but sturdy.  As my riser container is sort of 10" x 9 1/2" the perimeter is almost 8" longer than the diameter of the 10" circle, and I'd only ordered a 24" x 6'-0" piece.  I don't have enough for two 39" lengths, but I read where you wrote that 28"is enough for inside the 31.4" circumference of a 10" circle, so maybe I could get by with 36" for my 39"-perimeter boxy ovoid.   Unfortunately, when I went to cut the wool, I measured and they had sent a few inches too short.  I'm stymied.  I've contacted Axner.com/Laguna Clay and asked how I could make a case for receiving a credit of another 36" piece.  I eagerly await their reply.

UPDATE:  The superwool I ordered was 1", but I received 2", only less square feet.  After originally suggesting that I slice the 2" into 1" slabs so that I'd have enough square footage, they agreed to take the mis-ship back and will resend the correct amount of 1" superwool  Yay. Axner.com.  Good folks.
NewRiser.jpg
[Thumbnail for NewRiser.jpg]
 
Richard Kniffin
Posts: 39
Location: Vermont, USA
16
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Here's a spot in my combustion unit where I used superwool... it has burned successfully under good conditions and so far I can recommend this method to others. However, if I did it over again I'd probably just use more clay slip between each brick and make the riser opening a little bigger for simplicity.

To get the superwool down into that small space, I sandwiched it between two sheets of paper, slid the whole package down, then slid the paper back up. Otherwise the superwool gets stuck, torn, and shredded as you try to pack it down. (I know this from experience!)
IMG_3110.JPG
sizing of firebrick left me with a sizable gap in my 'bridge'
sizing of firebrick left me with a sizable gap in my 'bridge'
IMG_3111.JPG
seen from side
seen from side
IMG_3136.JPG
filled with superwool
filled with superwool
 
Gerry Parent
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: Westbridge, BC, Canada
445
building solar woodworking rocket stoves wood heat greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Got a hole that needs filling? Superwool to the rescue!

Great innovation Richard.
 
master steward
Posts: 1577
Location: Coastal Salish Sea area, British Columbia
799
goat books chicken food preservation pig solar wood heat rocket stoves homestead ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Has anyone used superwool as the base layer to their masonry heater? I am attempting to however it seems to be quite annoying because the bricks want to move around.

I am starting to think it is not a good idea?

The reason i wanted to put in on the base layer, is because i figured it would help with cracking because my masonry heater will be going onto a wood floor. I figured having a flexible base might make it easier on the cracks.

I did stack some bricks on it. Once it had some weight on it it seemed much better than the first course. However it still seems questionable... to me.
IMG_1296-2.JPG
[Thumbnail for IMG_1296-2.JPG]
 
Gerry Parent
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: Westbridge, BC, Canada
445
building solar woodworking rocket stoves wood heat greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
At one point in time Jordan I had thought of the same thing but didn’t try it for the same reason that the instability and compression of the wool over time would not be a good thing.
Especially with a wood floor, I would think leaving an air gap would be a much better way to go, that way you can monitor the temperatures under there much easier.
 
pioneer
Posts: 224
19
chicken wood heat rocket stoves
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I will most certainly be giving this a try.  Used standard ceramic blanket for a small propane foundry I fashioned from an old propane tank.  It was probably the most unpleasant material I have ever worked with.
 
Fox James
pollinator
Posts: 331
47
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ceramic wool needs to be fluffy and airrated  to work at its best, if you compress it the insulation properties diminish dramatically.
I am also getting increasingly concerned about the safety aspect as many people seen to think it is far more dangerous  that was first thought!
Even the body soluble versions are now deemed as very high risk by many people.
 
Mark Brunnr
gardener
Posts: 1186
323
3
trees wofati rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sitting on a wood floor, I would get an air gap under it all, not have anything sitting directly on the wood preventing air flow. Insulation slows heat transfer, but doesn't stop it. That wood will heat up over time so air flow is important. The insulation will not work well if you put weight on it, that will compress it, but if you have a supporting frame to hold all the weight and then fill the bottom with the insulation so it's not supporting anything that would work, but again keep an air gap underneath it all for a wood floor. It can be really handy to sandwich superwool between say insulated firebrick for a firebox/burn tunnel and the exterior surface materials as the wool will be flexible to allow for expansion without cracking. I plan to use vermiculite for that (perlite's the one that is more harmful to breathe I think?) instead and since my floor will be subsoil having the insulation in direct contact isn't an issue.
 
Posts: 67
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I see no need for an insulated riser metal or masonry. The velocity of the riser gas being high doesn't disapate heat fast enough to make a difference. Riser temperature is better maintained by proper fuel size and feed rate.
 
Gerry Parent
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: Westbridge, BC, Canada
445
building solar woodworking rocket stoves wood heat greening the desert
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Joe,
An insulated heat riser has been proven by the use of a Testo gas analyzer by many people to be of great importance in producing a highly efficient clean burn.
Not sure what you’re basing your information on?
 
Fox James
pollinator
Posts: 331
47
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I feel I must say something more about the safely of using ceramic fibre wool.

It has come to light that  all biosoluble ceramics become increasingly  insoluble when heated into the 1100°C range and possibly  as low as 800c,  will  convert to cristobalite upon heating.

It seems that all ceramics regardless  of trade names, undergo crystal phase changes when heated to those temperatures.

The result is the fibres become more  brittle and more prone to air born  partials that are no longer bio soluble!

I just worry a lot about how much the product is promoted in the use of Rocket stove building and that we should be  aware that the products we’re putting into our stoves not the same as the material we end up with once super heated?

I myself have used a lot of ceramic fibre matting, I use the European standard bio soluble version for covering  the wood ovens that I have been building for the last 10 years but there is now a lot of concern about its use and safety aspect!
This subject come up a lot of pizza oven forums but I notice a more detailed thread on the other rocket stove forum….. https://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3676/disintegration-superwool-ceramic-fibre-board
 
Posts: 17
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

thomas rubino wrote:Hi All;

After learning earlier this summer about the radical difference between refractory ceramic blanket ( very hazardous) and non refractory ceramic blanket(Morgan superwool plus) not hazardous!
I purchased 12.5' of non hazardous 1" blanket.

Our friend and fellow rocket scientist Eric Hammond had a horrible experience working with the refractory blanket ! He hated it ! Worse than any fiberglass, he thought a full tyvek suit and respirator should be used.

Today I worked with non refractory blanket !  Sweet ! Easy to cut, like working with a nice thick blanket!  Single edge razor blade slid thru like butter.  If I had known the exact size I needed to cut it really would have taken five minutes to build my five minute riser.

For those wanting to build an 8" riser .  I started out cutting a 31" piece ,  10" x 3.14 = 31" for the true I.D. With 1" thick material I first cut back to 29" then 28.5" and finally 28" even.  I did have a few spots on the seam where I stuffed a thin trim piece in but only from my less than perfectly straight cuts.

I used a stainless tie wire to make sure my stove pipe stays snapped together.

This riser is now ready to install !   How sweet it is !



So, in your 10" stove pipe, did you put one layer or 2 of the 1" thick superwool?
 
thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4644
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1700
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One layer @ 1" thick in a 10" pipe creates an 8" riser.
 
I'm not sure if I approve of this interruption. But this tiny ad checks out:
Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic