two rocket mass heater workshops in October 2013

Are these shippable cores going to ever be in both 6" and 8" sizes?

So, I assume that the people who attended the last rocket heater workshop can attend the upcoming workshop for a free information update, especially now that you're offering access to build the shippable cores that we only got to see at the last workshop?

I've been amazed at how many threads I drop into on this site that don't provide basic information. Is this some weird clique that you have to be on the inside of to get the in-the-know information?

Like WHERE is the workshop? Pretty basic.

Australia? USA? Wales? 14th and High in Eugene, Oregon? Brother Billy Bob's Backyard BioShelter and Bar in Barstow?

The first time I came to Permies I went to a thread about some guy Paul wanting to buy land. Lots of discussion, but I gave up trying figure out where the land was, and why so many people were interested in helping him pay for it.

Charlie Magee wrote:
Like WHERE is the workshop? Pretty basic.

Clue 1: Note that this thread appears in the "missoula" forum.

Clue 2: Note that I am hosting it and next to my name it says "missoula, montana"

Clue 3: Jocelyn is doing registrations and next to her name it says "Missoula, MT"

But, you are right, that should be in the first post. I'll go add it now.

Hi Charlie,
If you go to page one of this thread they give the details of the workshop.

The workshops are being held at a farm in Mizzoula Montana, USA. ( Where Paul Wheaton and a group of like minded folks all work together)

I have copied the information below from the first post in the thread.


" The first rocket mass heater workshop starts on the evening of Friday, October 18th and runs through mid afternoon on Sunday, October 20th. This workshop will focus on the pea gravel style of rocket mass heaters. We will build three of these. One in a double wide manufactured home, one in an office with a cement foundation, and a third in a large shop with a cement foundation. All three will probably go pretty quickly. "

"The second workshop starts on the evening of Friday, October 25th and runs through mid afternoon on Sunday, October 27th. This workshop will focus on a cob style of rocket mass heater. It will be constructed inside a tipi and will include a bench and a bed platform. After the workshop, a couple will live in the tipi through the winter and, come spring, report how comfortable or uncomfortable the experience was. Cob is a slow, but beautiful process. "

Housing is linked to another thread

" So far, we have the following housing at the project:

base camp
VIP bedroom - queen size bed (usually reserved for instructors or jet pack visitors)
bunk bedroom - currently one bunk bed with one full, one twin; and another bunk bed with 2 twins on the way
red cabin - currently one full, one twin bunk bed
camping - lots of room to pitch a tent, park a camper or RV
shop or garage space - if needed for a bedroll, tent leaks, etc.

the laboratory
access is currently rough - all wheel drive is required
newer tipi
partially painted tipi
8-man nylon tent
camping - lots of room to pitch a tent

Current workshop housing pricing:
$20 per night per person - tipi, tent, trailer or bedroll camping - waived for those who have listened to more than half of the podcasts
$30 per night per person - bunk bed in shared room in base camp house or red cabin

Additional nearby housing - including hotels, b&bs, lodges, campgrounds, etc. provided upon workshop registration. "

Hope this helps ya
-Kevin

paul wheaton wrote:

Charlie Magee wrote:
Like WHERE is the workshop? Pretty basic.

Clue 1: Note that this thread appears in the "missoula" forum.

Clue 2: Note that I am hosting it and next to my name it says "missoula, montana"

Clue 3: Jocelyn is doing registrations and next to her name it says "Missoula, MT"

But, you are right, that should be in the first post. I'll go add it now.

Right off the top, let me say I appreciate all the wealth of information you folks have gathered on this website and in the forums. Now I will embark on what is meant to be a good-natured rant. Think of it as an old high-school buddy giving you shit, not some random Internet troll being an asshole.


Wait. You want people to read the breadcrumbs and people's profiles to find a location? And what does where they live have to do with it? Many people run and organize workshops from locations other than where the workshop will be held. And even if I spotted the location next to your name, I'm supposed to go to downtown Missoula and start asking around for a guy named Paul?

Clues? Why should people have to hunt for and parse clues? You really need to treat me like a dumbshit when all you had to do was provide complete information in the first post of this thread?

Look, I know that this is like a little club, but if you want it to grow--and obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't be creating permie playing cards (brilliant idea, by the way)--then with just a tiny bit of effort you can make that easier by more clearly detailing the basics of events like workshops in the first post of a thread.

I'm not trying to be a hard-ass, but I've been really surprised at the number of threads in these forums that assume prior knowledge of facts that appear to be hidden in the history of this group.

Another example: why isn't there a big huge button on the home page to an info/sales page for the set of 4 videos I've heard so much about? Or a big fat link to this Workshop? Or even a small link to ANY workshops?

What if I'm a random Internet surfer that stumbled here and I have a sudden interest in rocket heater workshops? I have to magically know to look in a forum for some guy Paul's farm? How am I to know not to look in Mary's farm?

And the link on Jocelyn's posts goes to a page that tells me the upcoming phases of the moon. Huh? That leads me where?

I'm trying to encourage you to open the doors in your thinking on how this site works/looks/feels. Especially when it comes to events and publications. Assume people don't know shit, but they want to know shit. And manure. And rockets. Tell them who, what, why, where, when right off the top. Don't treat them like dumbshits when they ask an obvious question because YOU left out the details.

By the way, it appears in the permies > forums > community > paul's farm forum . . . no "missoula" in the breadcrumb.

Charlie, At the top of every page here you should be seeing pop up adds for the DVD's and the workshops. Are you able to see that?

Miles Flansburg wrote:Charlie, At the top of every page here you should be seeing pop up adds for the DVD's and the workshops. Are you able to see that?

Got it Miles, thanks.

Now listed at the Mother Earth News Homesteading Education page.

Charlie, I'm sorry that missing information has made you feel "on the outs." It's human nature to shortcut and leave out stuff when interacting with friends/family/circle of acquaintances. This used to drive us CRAZY in the small town we moved to in Wisconsin (the only Waunakee in the world!). The local paper would announce meetings or other events, and totally leave out key things like the friggin' location! Because, you know, everybody knows where town council meetings are, right? Oh wait, you don't?? It led to an unfriendly feeling for us, which was unfortunate, because people really are nice, even in that town.

I swear to whatever deity you might admire, nobody is leaving out information in a conscious effort to exclude newcomers. It's just busy people trying to communicate mass quantities of information and maybe not taking a moment to check things out with "newcomer" eyes.

Thanks for pointing out the missing data. I hope you get a chance to hang out and learn a bunch of cool stuff.

Tobin Walter wrote: So, I assume that the people who attended the last rocket heater workshop can attend the upcoming workshop for a free information update, especially now that you're offering access to build the shippable cores that we only got to see at the last workshop?

We could do an information update on Thursday night, 10/24, for those who attended the last workshop. Contact me via purple moosage or e-mail for more information.

My apologies if I'm missing it, but I can't seem to find an official start time for the workshop on Friday, other than "evening". Being a local and working until 5 normally, I want to know when things will be starting Friday so I can (hopefully) arrange my day so as to not be late.

I don't know why my spam filter let me see Jocelyn's second email but not the first, but that's why I didn't have this information. Now I do.

Thanks for posting about this here, John. If any other attendees missed the e-mails with the schedule, please let me know!

Wow, Just attended the first Rocket Mass Heater workshop..what an experience. We had some serious hands on work going on..and worked on 3 different stoves..and saw a bunch of other configurations.

Ernie and Erica are awesome teachers..very, very experienced..as well as very, very patient. I was too busy to take pictures..but I hope that someone posts up some that they took..

People from all over the country attended..it was total awesomeness..and I might add the food was excellent..thanks Jocelyn and Kristen Lee-Charlson for the awesome vittles.

I must echo Rebecca's statements! From the moonlit fire science class to the mad dash to (properly!) load the mass into the finished heater, it was a full weekend of great experiences, food, and people. I left wanting more, but I'm not sure it could be any other way.

- Yes please post to a new topic threads 'pictures from October 2013 Workshop ' Please, Please, Send lots of photos ! Big Al !

From Kristie ...

RMH #1 - the bench:




RMH #2 - version 0.8 beta .... being tested in this pic. Excellent burn. I think we will take away some of the extra wood.

Damn I wish I was there,! Big AL !

Great food, great people. Instructors were wonderful. I now have the experience to go forth and be productive in this space. Thanks Paul for putting this on and thanks to Ernie and Erica for being so great. They really are fun to learn from.

Impressions from a great #2 Rocket Mass Heater Workshop. Thanks Paul & Jocelyn, Ernie & Erica!

Rose Dallal wrote: Tony and Emily trying it out

Great goofy picture!
Hope Tony and Emily will keep posting their progress.

-Erica

Emily said they were going to start a new thread. I'm waiting to post some pictures there. Does anyone know if they have "moved in" yet?

Joshua, this might be the thread ?

https://permies.com/t/29327/paul-wheaton-farm/RMH-Tipi

I know that they have not yet moved in.

Focus has been put on getting the wofati done. Once in a while Emily and Tony run a fire at the tipi to help the cob firm up so they can add more cob. Once the last dirt has been put on the wofati, focus will be shifted to the tipi.

The core at the tipi is made with a special material. The core was coming out rather amazing - only now it seems that there is some kryptonite somewhere and the core is cracking. Emily and Tony are going to make a new core like the one in the office (my design). They will make it in the auditorium with the warm heat given off by the rocket mass heater there. When the new core is done and has been fired, it should be light enough for two people to move. It will then be moved to the tipi and replace the cracked core.

The cob bench needs a bit more substance plus a the back rest. then the layers of fine cob to make it purty.

In the meantime, Emily and Tony are staying in the VIP room at basecamp.

-----

The rmh in the office has been running every day. The mass is getting warm. I have a little thermometer on my desk .... the other day I went to bed at 9:30 and there had been no fire for about seven hours. There was frost on the ground outside and the thermometer read 68. In the morning there was still frost on the ground and it read 63.

There is a long list of modifications and experiments to still be done on this.

This is using a core that I designed.

----

The rmh in the auditorium has been fired several times. It was fired up during the first workshop, but it had leaks around the manifold. The manifold design is a half barrel design. Ernie and Erica think that the half-barrel design will end up being the long term big winner. I think that the cast manifold will be the big winner. We will see.

Ernie and Erica reworked the core and it seemed to be leak free. There is some smoke back, but I think we still need to add the air-intake and I want to experiment further with the exhaust. There are reports of some small leaks - I'll take a look later today.

---

We fired up the rmh in the house yesterday and had poor results. Way too much smoke back. There were lots of leaks, but we think we have those all plugged now.

The wood feed is 21 inches tall, but it should be no more than 16 or 16.5. I think that is part of the problem. Plus part of the wood feed is steel - and that was a problem with my first wood-box shippable core. It seems that the steel is a real magnet for radiant heat. If the steel heats up, then it acts as a competing chimney.

One of the primary things about this rocket mass heater is that it exhausts straight out the side of the house. This system has about 25 feet of duct plus 6 90 degree elbows which adds (in theory) five feet per elbow for a total of 55 feet of effective duct. An 8 inch system with a roof exhaust should not go over 50 feet. The roof exhaust collects radiant heat from the barrel and then pulls the exhaust out of the mass while the heat riser pushes. If we exhaust out of the wall, we don't get that extra pull. And when you combine that with having too much duct, you are bound to have problems.

----

For side exhaust, I wish to conduct experiments on using different types of t-duct and then an elbow with a short rise. My thinking is that when the system is running efficiently, then the exhaust should be about room temp. And room temp air will rise outside when the temp is less than room temp. I am thinking that it is possible that a three foot riser outside will give some of the pump effect.

Paul, are you interested in dialog in this space?

Matt Walker wrote:Paul, are you interested in dialog in this space?

It is the primary function of the forums.

I wanted to offer an idea I have played with a bit, that may be useful in this instance. From your post above I gather you are going for maximum heat in the space, and I know you understand how finicky a system can be without the vertical chimney for stack effect at the end.

I played with a concept to help along those lines, and I felt it had merit, but I personally build my systems with significant heat left over at the end and a vertical chimney to help the systems run smoother in all conditions, so I didn't pursue it very far. I did build a few versions and it always worked well.

It still requires a bit of leftover heat at the end of the mass, so it may not be for you, but, here it is. We use the riser/radiator combo to mimic a chimney in the front end of the system, the rising expanding gasses changing direction into falling cooling gasses. I have successfully added that same configuration at the end of the system, another riser/radiator. The radiator can shed the last of the heat into the space and then you have dense cool gasses spilling out. It provides similar draft to a tall chimney, especially as the system warms, but with the advantage of keeping that heat needed for stack effect in the building.

You will still have problems with pressure differentials from the building and local winds, but I'm sure you are aware of that and have set it up in an aspect you feel will work for you in most conditions. Anyway, it's an interesting twist in my opinion, and I felt it worked very well indeed. Hope that helps, or gives you some more ideas.

pic?

Hmm, I'm not sure I have one, I'll dig around and see if I ever did take a photo. It's just another riser inside a barrel. If you are using E & E's half barrel/clamp set up you would just bookend the mass with another one of those, then straight out the wall. It looks like you guys are using the same risers from WIC as I am, those work amazing for this.

I just went through my photos of my experiments during that time, I do not have any photos of it set up that way. I did it in my shop where I have a little test mass set up, and also on my outdoor system. In both instances I just took off the vertical chimney from the stub I had coming up out of the mass, and set a riser on it. Then I covered with a barrel that had an exhaust port cut in low, cobbed a seal around the barrel rim, and plugged in a short piece of horizontal pipe out through the shop wall. In the outdoor system it just spilled all over the ground. I'm quite sure there will be condensing going on in there, so think about where the moisture is going to go, and for sure I'd build it in a way that made it easy to get in there and service/swap out the barrels over time.

A quick thought along the lines of what you are suggesting: insulate the exhaust as it goes through the wall and then the duct goes into a short riser (two feet tall?) and then there is a small barrel over that. So if the exhaust is 70 degrees and the outside temp is 40, then we would get an updraft in the riser and downdraft in the bell. It would be stronger than if it were inside. You would be, effectively, using the larger temperature difference as a bit of a pump.

That is a good idea Paul, and I think it would work better than with the last barrel inside. Solves the moisture problem as well. I was going to say that the terminating barrel there really doesn't ever feel very warm, so there's not a lot of heat being given to the space anyway. So yeah, forget the every last drop of heat in the space and use it for the improved draft by maximizing the Delta T. I like it.

Now stack some functions there, maybe a winter hose bib is plumbed through it for a freeze proof water source? Have the last barrel in a woodshed or chicken coop? Just riffing now, but yeah, you got it.

I have decided to call this "the outdoor exhaust pump"

Cool man, I like it. Good luck with it.

paul wheaton wrote:
In the meantime, Emily and Tony are staying in the VIP room at basecamp.

They'll get soft!!

Ernie under Big Sky moonlight.

This is so cool to watch (albeit from a distance). I so want to put a RMH in our house, to replace the ridiculous pellet stove we have now.

The pellet stove is dependent upon electricity to function. This morning it was cold and raining hard. Then the power went out. Immediately the #&^%$ stove is venting black smoke into my parlor (it's too small to call a living room, especially since it's got our dining table in it). When the power went back on, the stove refused to wake up. What kind of crazy person installs a device that burns fuel in your house but only exhausts out of your house when the power is on?? And just don't get me started on how much heat is wasted to the outdoors via the horizontal then downward facing exhaust pipe (can't call it a chimney!)

Keep sharing your results with us, maybe I can convince my husband it's not crazy to have a RMH as a backup heat source (with the hope that we end up using it as our primary heat source).