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the third ethic  RSS feed

 
steward
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Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
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I think the Permaculture Association (UK) explains it as well as anybody:

3. SETTING LIMITS TO POPULATION AND CONSUMPTION: By governing our own needs, we
can set resources aside to further the above principles. Setting limits to
population is not about limiting people's free movement, tight border controls
and a one child policy. Its about working to achieve a stable human population,
using a number of key strategies. These include: access to family planning;
helping people to meet their basic needs of clean water, adequate food, and
basic healthcare and education; education for girls.

The third ethic recognises that:

a. The Earth’s resources are limited.
b. These resources need to be shared amongst many beings.

Permaculture seeks to divide these resources fairly amongst people, animals
and plants alike, not forgetting future generations who will need food,
water and shelter just as much as we do now. Its 'one planet living'.

Additionally

The 'Prime Directive of Permaculture'
"The only ethical decision is to take responsibility for our own
existence and that of our children." Bill Mollison.



Their copy of the 3 are here: http://www.permaculture.org.uk/knowledge-base/ethics

Too many people try to read more into them than was originally meant.
Those who have nothing to share are the most vocal about 'sharing'.


 
Posts: 24
Location: SE Georgia Zone 8B
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TY John for the link. I can see I am going to be awake reading for another 24 hours.. Its already almost 2:30 am here, and I was about to go rest a while.. Now, I can't! lol Thanks!

edit: Its time for a snack and a cup of joe....
 
steward
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand. Temperate, coastal, sandy, windy,
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I like to bring this up every once and a while
 
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paul wheaton wrote:
The bottom line is that once you take a PDC, you get to use the word permaculture on your stuff.  I took a PDC.  I have visited a lot of farms that say that they are doing permaculture and I really don't see it.  But they took a PDC so they get to call it permaculture.  That's the system.  People that have taken a PDC can put bubble gum on the end of a stick and call it permaculture if they want.  It is unfortunate, but that's the way it is.




Desert Aboriginal people collect certain species of Spinifex and bash it with a stick on a clean surface to begin the extraction of resin [gum] which occurs at the base of the stems. The chaff is heated with a fire stick causing the resin to melt. It is then rolled into a ball and used as an adhesive, mainly for attaching stone cutting chips to wooden implements such as spears [sticks].

Source: Alice Springs Desert Park (no date) Nature Notes - Spinifex

So, permaculture can be 'gum on a stick'.
 
pollinator
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Location: La Palma (Canary island) Zone 11
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"Money" is 2 things, and these 2 things are unfortunately confused!

1) A bridge = a system to swap even with people who do not have what you want.

2) A tool that I do not understand, but some people seem to "make something with money", and this looks like cloning, because there is a sort of nonsexual reproduction... Banks do the cloning, I guess, and they ask you for some "parent money". They do so by attracting you with a good bait: they promise you some "interests". But you never know what % they make themselves, as they only tell you the % you will get.

If you think the second system is bad, why do some people condemn the tool, instead of condemning certain ways to use the tool ?? ?? ??
I do use a hammer from time to time, but only on nails heads! I can frown at a bad hand, but not at the hammer.

By the way, I do not know what is "the third ethic" and I don't mind.
And I do not do any permaculture either, I just do my best and try to be smart with my land. SO I learn, and then I think as best I can, to respect at least the natural rules I know. And when I know that I don't know, I ask. And I do things before I know it all, or else I will stay in front of my computer all my life. Then I will be afraid of dying, as it will be too bad for the earth to loose all this knowledge!
 
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Just went through this whole thread. Whew!

And the winner is... Chris Lumpkin

"I believe there is a way to understand the three ethics of permaculture as a philosophy that is as practical as it is altruistic. I find it difficult to separate my personal permaculture philosophy into the three ethics - maybe somebody should reword the whole thing and call it a different name (wink wink nudge nudge). The more I practice the principles, the harder it is to separate the Earth in #1 from the People in #2, and the harder it is to conceive of any definition of a "successful" individual or entity that is not also reinvesting profits in the sources of their wealth. If there is a core teaching of my permaculture-y thing, it is this: What works will grow, and what grows is good. The ethics support the principles and the healthy functioning of all our enterprises; the only difference is the ethics require a longer view on success.

Whatever your opinion is regarding someone else's farm or business, the good news about anything that is unsustainable, by definition, it can't last. That being said, it is a poor investment for me to spend my time criticizing other people's farms or philosophies. So, I'm going to get back to work now. Great discussion, thanks everybody!"

 
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Location: Richmond, VA (zone 7a)
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Thanks, Jason... what did I win?

I think a lot of people end up in opposing camps, often throwing things at each other, when they try to interpret something like these ethics and principles. It is a funny cyclic activity we humans seem to enjoy...

  • Someone has a profound insight about how we live and relate to each other, and shares it with others
  • Some people are horrified/threatened by the message, and they may nail the author to a tree
  • Other people are inspired by this insight, and someone decided it should be written down and shared
  • The profound message is written down, often by people other than the original author (who may have been nailed to a tree or otherwise removed from circulation), declared holy by those who Believe, and made into Dogma
  • Time passes, context changes, and maybe people don't even speak the language in which the message was originally written
  • Camps develop around different personalities or interpretations, and they often exhibit behavior which is inconsistent with the original inspiration
  • Many people will only hear of the great conflict surrounding the personalities and extreme behavior, and make judgments about the ideas and their original author without even hearing the originally intended message



  • I think this progression is why Paul dislikes hosting these types of conversations on the site. He wants us to stay focused on the message, and not make a religion of Permaculture. Maybe it is easier if we read, watch, and listen with a clear mind, taking everything in without judging, and argue with humility. I like what Paul says about educating people in the logical fallacies. We are so accustomed to looking at information as some kind of monument to be worshiped and never changed. Arguing is a fine art, and great ideas only become greater when subjected to such polishing.

    This is a great video to watch before a good argument:



     
    Jason Lindsay
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    Pie obviously!
    But only if you share it with all the non-winning participants and the non-participants as well.
    Too bad there is no pie left for you.

    My preparation for arguements is to not be in them. Do or do not. Arguments are trying.
     
    gardener
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    I liked the video. This one popped up in the choices that YouTube presents at the end of a video.

    This guy has all of the answers and strong "belief". The video is titled --- The Truth About 2012 And The New Beginning. He's selling truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHA9Gj5xtQQ#t=422

    I'd like to think that this guy is no longer with us, and has gone on to live with other superior beings.
     
    gardener
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    Paul talks about the third ethic, and people's manipulation of the meaning in podcast 085 - we just made it free again in this thread. Download or listen online.
     
    gardener
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    "I'd like to think that this guy is no longer with us, and has gone on to live with other superior beings."

    Well, at least his video is no longer with us... not available on youtube.
     
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    Hi,
    Long time listener, first time caller.

    I don't profess to be an expert (on most things) but find this site a valuable resource which should be respected and appreciated.

    One of the issues I think people have is the line between 'self sufficiency' and 'greed' and where people sit on that line.  I think it's unreasonable to expect everything to be free (whether that be produce, information, courses etc...) but by the same token I can well appreciate why people cry foul when they see $40+ charge for a pdf document.  We all want to feel like we're getting value for money and sometimes the product itself needs is just as important as the information contained within, however useful or valuable that information is.

    Bottom line though is that if you don't want to pay for it for whatever reason then don't buy it - it really isn't a difficult concept.  IMO anyone who abuses someone else for whatever reason is contravening ethic 2 which is care of people.  We are all adults and should be able to have rational debate about difference of opinion etc... without name calling.  
     
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    Well, I tend to agree with Mollison, but as I can't personally control world population, I work on the Limiting Consumption part.  I also think that "Fair Share," "returning the surplus," or "Parity" water down his initial intent. Mollison founded the movement, I think that pretty much gives him the right to establish the ethical framework. Just sayin'.
     
    Posts: 154
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    paul wheaton wrote:A friend emailed to say he was watching the Mollison/Lawton PDC DVD and Mollison says "I think the eco fascists should be forced to eat nothing but native plants because it will kill them all quicker than anything else"



    You made me laugh, Paul!

    I've never heard of the third ethic until I read this thread, so I did a quick search to get a rough grasp of what it is.

    What struck me is that the first two ethics are inside out... actions which begin inside me as an individual from the inside out.

    Now I could be totally wrong because of the lack of depth of my cursory knowledge, but the third ethic struck me as being just the opposite. Outside in. Actions which begin inside others acting upon me from the outside in.

    Ok, got it now. Thanks SO much Jack Spirko for your insightful videos. Now I realize I live in the land of the third ethic... California.

    (edit: Jeez... I just realized how old this thread is. Sorry... I'm new here.)
     
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    (edit: Jeez... I just realized how old this thread is. Sorry... I'm new here.)[/quote wrote:

    Thanks for bringing this subject back to light. I consider myself a newbie and appreciate older topics that are still relevant today.

     
    Good night. Drive safely. Here's a tiny ad for the road:
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