Can you make rain with permaculture?

One year later and I'm coming back to the topic. The drought is severe and so are the fires. I know now a lot more about aborigines managing the land with fire and sadly geoengineering. I hope really that we can do something with permaculture against this onslought!

Mick Fisch wrote:On a small scale, you can't make it rain with permaculture.

What about one of those water generators from air? - apparently they use some small condenser and are used in areas with not much water. Not sure how much it would be useful though.
Search for "atmospheric water generator"

There is a lot of research as well
on alternative grazing techniques which build soil, improve pastures & improve water cycles.
https://regenerationinternational.org/why-regenerative-agriculture/

my favorite picture

In addition to the above, now there are studies affirming that huge mature wild forests also influence the pattern of winds, bringing moist air from the seas into the continental areas. A phenomenon called 'biotic pump' by the researchers.

https://www.science.org/content/article/controversial-russian-theory-claims-forests-don-t-just-make-rain-they-make-wind

Luke Bryan wrote:

Mick Fisch wrote:On a small scale, you can't make it rain with permaculture.

What about one of those water generators from air? - apparently they use some small condenser and are used in areas with not much water. Not sure how much it would be useful though.
Search for "atmospheric water generator"

Luke, you are right! Water can be made from the air though it is not rain.  This technique works and these threads will explain:

https://permies.com/t/airwell

https://permies.com/t/35795/AIR-WELLS-information

There are a lot of techniques that can be implemented:

https://permies.com/t/138768/Water-Plants-Trees-Drought-Conditions

https://permies.com/t/58559/Big-Fat-Thread-Dryland-Farming

Building up the soil will help plants not need as much water:

https://permies.com/t/63914/Soil

Dr. Bryant Redhawk's Soil Series:

https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil

"Can you make rain with permaculture" is this topic:

I say yes you can and it is very easy:

Stop thinking the tree I would like to plant will not make a change against the expanding drought

Start thinking MY tree I just planted is the tripping point from drought to rain

and if there is not difference plant one more, persuade your neighbor by gifting him/her a tree that will be the tripping point and let him/her continue to do this until all see the first cloud since many years...

actually so simple, isn't it?

Hence the answer is:  "Yes you can make rain with permaculture"

This phenomenon puzzled scientists. Now one team of researchers in the US believe they have the answer: the trees make their own rain. Transpiration is a well-known part of photosynthesis, where moisture is drawn up by plant roots, gathers on leaves and then evaporates into the atmosphere.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/08/how-trees-in-the-amazon-make-their-own-rain/

Does anyone know if the Chinese Loess plateau afforestation created any increase in rainfall? I couldn't find anything with google.

Angelika Maier wrote:We have this terrible drought right now and sheep are dying of starvation. I think they are so desperate that they damage the paddock beyond repair, digging out the roots. Farms are pretty big here but there is only sheep paddock and very little vegetation. Farmers don't even have gardens or some chooks or an orchard. I wonder apart from the better holding of water on properties could you actually make rain by planting more trees? Farmers complain a lot and it is probably very hard for them, but they do not change the practices.

Planting trees in quantities large enough to make a difference will require willpower at the scale of the nation. You do not indicate how much yearly precipitation you get, just that you are in Australia zone 10, which is pretty darn tropical. (I'm in zone 4b, Central WI.)
So armed with that, I looked it up. There are regional differences, of course "Coastal areas of Queensland, Northern Territory, and Western Australia often experience upwards of 1,500–2,000 mm, with some areas exceeding 3,000 mm (120 inches)."
By comparison, I get and average of 31-32" per year.
So it appears to me that you are not so much low on annual precipitation, but you appear to have a very wet and a very dry season.
Your solution might reside in holding on to the water that you do get. Building underground cisterns like my great grandma had under her house might be your salvation. It would at least allow you to have ample water for you and your animals, maybe even a nice garden?
In the south of France, a whole village would build a cistern for the town and carefully meter that out.
It is not perfect but it's better than having starving sheep
I remember looking up the number of gallons of water you can collect from a regular sized roof. I almost fell off my chair!
"One inch of rain on a 1,000-square-foot roof produces approximately 600 to 623 gallons of water.
and that's just one inch of rain! A cistern can be made of a septic tank or several that are joined. A normal septic tank is about 1,000 to 1,500 gallons so with barely one inch of rain collected from a roof, you are already more than half way up a septic tank full.
The Romans would build their house with a central patio and instead of having the rooves shedding water away, they would have it collected in the middle and down to a large cistern that was mostly covered to prevent bugs and other critters. But, you know, the Romans were really pretty good with that kind of construction!
You did not indicate what sort of soil you have and if it would pay to excavate swells and berms, but if you have more clay, that might help too.

Skyler Weber wrote:Does anyone know if the Chinese Loess plateau afforestation created any increase in rainfall?

Yes, it did:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168192325002436

"The Grain for Green Project in the Chinese Loess Plateau (CLP) has greatly increased vegetation cover and altered land use patterns... On average, 21 % of the Evaporation/Transpiration moisture contributed to 14 % of local precipitation. The remaining ET moisture contributed unevenly to downwind precipitation of different regions: 38 % of ET for rest of China, 17 % for other countries, and 24 % for the ocean. The increased ET over the past three decades has greatly contributed to the increases in local precipitation."

Mushrooms increase rainfall, too:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4624964/,
https://www.chipcopreserve.com/post/how-mushrooms-make-it-rain-the-surprising-science-of-fungal-forecasting

"Unlike dust or pollution, fungal spores are particularly effective at attracting water. Their surfaces are hygroscopic, meaning they love water, and they can absorb moisture even in relatively dry conditions. Once in the atmosphere, spores help jumpstart the formation of clouds by providing a platform for water droplets to gather. When fungal spores are released en masse, especially after a rain, they prime the atmosphere to welcome the next rain event. In other words, mushrooms don’t just thrive in wet environments; they help create them."

So, it makes sense to improve the soil by planting trees and providing conditions that encourage biodiversity.  More trees and understory plants lead to more fungi. Trees (via evaporation & transpiration) and fungi (vis spore formation) both lead to more rain, locally and farther afield.

Box elder trees aka Manitoba maple (I think) are ice nucleating bacteria habitat.  Lots of species of plants have been tested, and so far box elders - Acer negundo are the best.

So many nucleating particles named in this thread!  Thank you all.

This is finally a phenomenon which highlights that earth and climate are community property and we all make a difference.  The box elders I am planting are unlikely to impact rainfall on my 6 acres, nor the mushroom spores if I can turn my brittle environment into mushroom growing.  But enhancing likelihood of rain is worth while because it will make it rain somewhere!

As far as I know, there is no planet B, and if there were, I haven’t heard
talk about allowing people passionate about maintaining some semblance of pristine conditions on earth to have some place untrammeled by more mainstream values.

We rectify CO2 and pollution, but it’s for everyone, or no one.  There’s just one earth.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Box elder trees aka Manitoba maple (I think) are ice nucleating bacteria habitat.  Lots of species of plants have been tested, and so far box elders - Acer negundo are the best.

You got the naming right.  In an appropriate environment for it, the tree is almost weedy.  While the wood is not highly valuable for most things (burning, carving, building, etc), it does coppice well.  I understand seeds are edible and, around here at least, if you don't eat them, you may wind up with a forest.

And I think it’s fast growing… which in my mind equals capturing CO2 and sequestering carbon while enriching soil!

I have also heard you can make “maple” sugar, same genus after all.

Yes, Manitoba maples can be tapped - St. Pierre Jolys Museum holds a sugaring off festival each spring.  The community taps over 200 maples and is planting more around the town.  They sell out of syrup each year...I've never managed to get any.

That said, to get enough sap, you need to have enough mature trees to be able to tap to boil down for syrup.  Planting trees for this purpose may very well prove to be an intergenerational plan.

Derek Thille wrote:Yes, Manitoba maples can be tapped - St. Pierre Jolys Museum holds a sugaring off festival each spring.  The community taps over 200 maples and is planting more around the town.  They sell out of syrup each year...I've never managed to get any.

That said, to get enough sap, you need to have enough mature trees to be able to tap to boil down for syrup.  Planting trees for this purpose may very well prove to be an intergenerational plan.

Intergenerational, indeed, but we are patient, or we would not be permaculturists! (Haha)
Maple Species Ranked by Sap Brix and Syrup Yield Efficiency:
Sugar Maple & Black Maple
Average Sap Brix: 2.0% – 2.5%+
Sap-to-Syrup Ratio: ~40:1 (takes ~40 gallons of sap to make 1 gallon of syrup)
Red Maple & Silver Maple
Average Sap Brix: 1.0% – 2.0%
Sap-to-Syrup Ratio: ~50:1 (takes ~50 gallons of sap to make 1 gallon of syrup)
Boxelder (Manitoba Maple)
Average Sap Brix: ~1.0%
Sap-to-Syrup Ratio: ~60:1 or higher (takes 60+ gallons of sap for 1 gallon of syrup)
They consider "tappable" a maple that, at breast height is 10-12" in diameter. That takes time, and it takes longer for the sweeter maples  (30-40 years), than for the red or silver (25-30 years) or the Manitoba Maple (15-20 Years)
I grow a few sugar maples, but it's more for the fall foliage than the syrup. I figure, some day, I'll be able to tap a few, just for our own. (Another interesting yield for all maples is leaves, in case you want to make leaf mold)

Norway maple and Autumn Blaze maple yield good, usable syrup, while Japanese maple produces very little volume and can have an unusual, savory flavor.
You can make delicious syrup from several non-maple trees. Popular options include walnut, birch, sycamore, hickory, and even elm or linden trees, each yielding sap with a unique flavor profile.

Beyond this, you need to figure out if the trees you are considering can grow *well* in your zone and your soil.
You will also need lots of fuel to evaporate all that sap!