2015 rocket mass heater pyronaut event in October

2015 rocket mass heater pyronauts event webpage

Go to the link above to register.

Tinkerer's Circus - October 7-9
wednesday through friday is a "tinkerers circus" that will be open to all innovators. As we've talked about this we've described it as something of a "show and tell". The first day of the event will be show off ideas/inventions created before the event and the following two days will be for collaborations, brainstorming and creating new things.

Then a two day break (people can continue to play if they want).

Innovator's Event - October 12-16
Then the five day innovators event - same format as last year. Only instead of five innovators, this year there will be six innovators. I have asked the five innovators from last year to pick the next two innovators for this event. And already it sounds like the choice will be difficult as there have been a lot of great innovators this last year.

I asked the innovators what they might work on this year and here are a few of the responses:

Peter van den Berg wrote:Building a small housing cheap rocket mass heater perhaps? That happened to be a remaining question from last year if I remember correctly. That would be almost certainly based on a batch box core I think. I know very well how a 4" J-tube behaves because I am using it myself on a daily basis. I have to stay around to pamper it about every 5 to 10 minutes otherwise it will burn empty or hang up and go out just like that.

Matt Walker wrote:If you have a small dwelling ready for heat I'd like to build a low profile cook stove/heater from a new design I'm working on currently. If we have funds we could use off the shelf masonry heater hardware for bake oven and fire door and such, and really make a beautiful heater that can bolster wider acceptance. Fabbing doors and such works too if that fits your model better, I'm just finding that's a sticking point for a lot of DIY builds along these lines, so it might be nice to show some ready made alternatives. Maybe $1500 in parts +/-?

That's one idea, I'll send more as I come across them.

Ernie and Erica Wisner wrote: These are brainstorms, not promises:
Ernie:
- try out a new lid design for J-type fireboxes; doubles as an outside-air intake control, which Ernie and his dad have been drawing up.
- more fun with heat tubes: rocket hot tub?
- more work on a shippable/castable/crack-resistant small core process.

Combined back burner:
- heater for boats/campers, maybe multi-funcion.
- possible for new firebox tweaks.
- optimizing for pitchy/oily fuels, toward safe incineration of plastic rubbish.
- See how the water-heater works on Tim's 3-headed beastie, or if it needs more optimization (if he's not able to attend).
- Possible for new firebox tweak suggestions from our engineering intern this summer.

Erica: Protocol development / toward official EPA approval or current code compatibility:
Current codes weren't written with rocket heaters in mind.
One persistent question is "How can I install one and keep my homeowners/fire/business liability insurance?"
- Brainstorm the cheapest possible way to make a rockety-clean masonry heater under current building codes. What's the cheapest kit or model out there that's widely accepted by insurance?

- I want to try a simulated EPA or UL-certification test on a standard DIY and someone's favorite kit-style (pre-cast) version. We might run it with Matt's proposed new testing protocol, and the current protocols for masonry heaters (requires that we have a door that can close on the test model(s)).
We may be limited on equipment that they would have, but if we have a Test-o meter, can we get close enough to judge between models and protocols for the best candidates for the real thing?

- I want to compare predictions and actual experiences as to heat delivery in different spaces.

Tim Barker wrote:using rockets for destructive distillation of waste veg and motor oil and plastic.
rockets for small spaces by using simple hydronic system as discussed last year.
Large simple rocket powered stirling engine based around 55 gallon drum.
Tweaks and more for cooking stuff.

And more stuff i haven't thought about yet

More info to come depending on the results with the current kickstarter and other data.

At this moment, I'm not sure what to charge for such an event. In the past, we fed everybody - should we continue that? Also need to think about how to set the number of people to attend.

I suspect that some of the formal innovators will be here for the tinkerers circus - and they might do some of their own tinkering then.

Who wants to come? Who wants to present as part of the tinkerers circus? Who wants to come to the tinkerers circus as a lab rat? Or be a lab rat at the formal innovators event?

And here's more info from Paul's post Nov. 2014 in the 2014 RMH & innovators event thread:

paul wheaton wrote:

So, tentatively, the three day event would be october 7-9 2015, and the five day event would be october 12-16 2015.

I just got off the phone with Erica. We have decided to make the following modifications to the event:

Three day "show and tell"/"build and tell" event, october 7-9 is unchanged.

The five day innovators event will be changed to a 4 day innovators event followed by a one day observation event. Chances are that innovation stuff might still be going on, but it could also be a day of reflection for some.

We are going to try to cover the lions share of the travel expenses for the five innovators that will be returning. The five will be able to select two more. So there will be a total of seven innovators.

We estimate that the cost of materials for the innovators will be something around $10,000. Travel costs will be about $5500. Food, cooking and cleaning will be something around $10,000.

We also talked about adding a plasma cutter for the innovators: $1500

So, we are looking at about $27,000. I suspect there are some other expenses I haven't thought of yet, so let's say $30,000.

We will allow 21 lab rats for the events and an extra 12 people for observation day.

3-day "build and tell" event: $480
4-day innovators event: $850
observation day: $220

full 8 days: $1400

innovator event plus observation day: $1000

So if 21 people bought tickets for the full 8 days, that would be $29,400. Cutting it very close.

This is the time for feedback on the format. Ideas?

This will likely get mashed up into the first post and made prettier as we further define/refine things.

Jocelyn,

This sounds awesome! I have two old hippie genius people who might be very very interested in this. Both of them have been doing this stuff since like the 60s one of them since the really early sixties. I am going to talk to them about carpooling and see about getting their email contact (so not how we work out here) Would you be interested in having me forward their contact info to y'all?

A big +1 for RMH in a Tiny House setting.

For many reason, none of which I'll expound on here, I think Tiny Houses are going to be very popular in the next 30 years. Personally I am trying to figure out a way I can send each of my kids off to adult hood with a tiny house. Imagine NEVER having to make a bad housing choice out of need. Imagine NEVER having to pay rent or go into debt as a young adult. Lastly I have a bit of land and I am looking at a Bed and Breakfast model as an income stream. The "beds" would be Tiny houses. And by some miracle the "department of making you sad" just liberated some of the zoning laws in my area making Tiny houses with foundations permissible. And a Tiny scale RMH makes the whole plan greener, warmer, and cheaper to operate.

To all the innovators; keep up the good work!

Landon Sunrich wrote:Jocelyn,

This sounds awesome! I have two old hippie genius people who might be very very interested in this. Both of them have been doing this stuff since like the 60s one of them since the really early sixties. I am going to talk to them about carpooling and see about getting their email contact (so not how we work out here) Would you be interested in having me forward their contact info to y'all?

Yes, it should be awesome!

I'm not exactly sure what you mean about connecting your hippie genius friends and myself. :: Feel free to e-mail them this thread and they could review it, post here, and/or even send me a purple mooseage if they have questions.

As perhaps further helpful explanation, in the past, the innovators were invited and chosen by Paul, Ernie and Erica. I'm not sure if Paul means the tinkerers' circus will be more open this time around. In general, if others would like to come learn and share, depending on how the kickstarter goes, we'll likely ask that they chip in something whether it will be prices similar to the above or otherwise. The materials alone add up quickly!

Tiny Home RMH
Since many tiny homes are on trailers it would be interesting to consider a RMH that could do two functions, heat from underneath and outside the trailer, and also heat water. Since tiny homes have so little space then maybe a Rocket water heater that could also be used for sub-floor hot water heat or a radiator? A third possibility is for outside heat and fire gazing since you'd like to get out of your tiny home with friends.

I've turned an 8'x24' trailer into a cabin and there is lots of room underneath but not much inside. Even a six-gallon electric water heater takes up quite a bit of room and require a lot of maintenance. That is a year-round need but heat is not and it doesn't take that much to heat this small space. I'd like the fire gazing aspect outside too.

Been thinking and researching floor heating for a tiny home on wheels. there is a floor underlayment that that allows the heat tube to wind through it.

4 inch batch heater with glass door for fire viewing, Water jacket around barrel for mass, insulated to hold heat for washing and or floor heat. Separate from house to be transported separately.

A rocket mass hot tub and hydronic heating are high on my list, especially if the hot tub can do dual use as a hog scalder and is skidable.


A ring of fire with water in the middle sometimes... that'd be neat.


Cutting some windows in a barrel may be a useful exorcize for teaching.


Long videos of burn cycles, you know, for the holidays. .

Hans Quistorff wrote:Been thinking and researching floor heating for a tiny home on wheels. there is a floor underlayment that that allows the heat tube to wind through it.

4 inch batch heater with glass door for fire viewing, Water jacket around barrel for mass, insulated to hold heat for washing and or floor heat. Separate from house to be transported separately.

Yes, that is what I'm thinking would work. It should not have a problem with fire codes or insurance then and you wouldn't need a chimney through your roof or wall.

Rocket hot tub!

Please.

Oh, please. We keep looking at a stainless steel dairy tank that is a good 6' in diameter and would make a sweet hot tub with a cedar liner/bench and floor, if it were cut in half. . .

Hans Quistorff wrote:Been thinking and researching floor heating for a tiny home on wheels. there is a floor underlayment that that allows the heat tube to wind through it.

4 inch batch heater with glass door for fire viewing, Water jacket around barrel for mass, insulated to hold heat for washing and or floor heat. Separate from house to be transported separately.

So, we could have many uses:
1. Fire viewing year round.
2. Cooking on top of barrel
3. Hot water possibly through coiled copper tubing in large tank.
4. Hot water from large unpressurized tank for radiant floor heating and
5. also water for a hot tub and/or scalding chickens, etc.

I think the whole unit could be built in parts and linked together with stove pipe so it could more easily be taken apart into manageable pieces when being moved with a tiny home. Designing for lighter weight when there is no water would be ideal. I would want to put this in a large screened in patio and not need any tanks inside the tiny home trailer.

I'd like to be there for the whole thing. I have no masonry experience, so I'd just be a laborer/observer.

Have you decided on meals and a price?


- L. Daniels

I saw an Instructables where a guy was installing radiant floor heating in a bus. This looks much like what I want to do with an exterior water heating RMH like I mentioned earlier.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Putting-A-Heated-Floor-In-A-Bus-part-1/
He said he got free design plans from PEX so I may do that too. My trailer is 8'x24' and well insulated so I think I'd go with just one zone for heating and thus just one pump and one thermostat. Simple.

I was also debating whether a 55 gallon drum of hot water for heating the floor would be enough for a full 24 hours of heat in a tiny home. I was thinking that the RMH could connect by stove pipe to a horizontal barrel and exhaust out of the other end. About a third of the side of the barrel could be cut away and on top would be nested in the barrel of water. It would need strong supports to keep the top heavy barrels from falling over. It would look a bit like the number 8 from the end. The water barrel for radiant floor heating water would have the copper tubing coil inside to heat the bath and kitchen hot water. An anti-scald valve would be needed to control the heat going into the tiny home. The barrels could be well insulated inside a nice looking 'shed' that matches my trailer/cabin. The RMH with the glass door and cook top would be inside the screened in porch and the water barrel part outside the porch connected by stove pipe. Without water the two pieces should be manageable to move when needed.

Cassie and I spent some time on this today. We hope to make an official announcement in the next day or two.

The dates are definitely the same:

October 7-9 for the tinkerer's circus (three days)

October 12-16 for the innovators event (five days)

(the last day of the innovators event will be open for a few extra people that will come for just one day as observers)

We will call the combined event the "rocket mass heater pyronauts event" and people will be able to buy a ticket where they can come for the afternoon of Monday, October 5th and stay through the afternoon of Saturday, October 17th.

Here is it: the 2015 rocket mass heater pyronauts event webpage !!

This link has ALL the details, including a section on how much it costs and how to reserve a spot.

Buddies and I built a Hottub in 2014 for $75 including building a RMH on a skid. Used cinder blocks, commercial dust collector pipe, copper piping, sand, a barrel, Roxul insulation and a free Hottub with some minor leaks and a bad pump. It was a little redneckish but it heated a Hottub full of 10C water to 40C in 7 hours. Here's a few pics. I believe we measured over 700F inside the rockets with an infrared thermometer. Not sure how accurate it is but all I know is that thing got hot! Definitely want to build a RMH for the garage. I have video too but can't post it here unfortunately.

A couple more pics...

Lee Daniels asked what I was going to. I don't have any masonry experience but have been reading articles/watching videos on RMH and am very interested in getting some first-hand experience.

I would love to be a laborer and help out in any way that is needed. What time slot would make the most sense to sign up for?

My main issue is trying to decide between the tinkerer's circus and the innovators event. At the moment, I would say that I'm most interested in what Peter van den Berg wants to experiment with.

Robbie Steffen wrote:Lee Daniels asked what I was going to. I don't have any masonry experience but have been reading articles/watching videos on RMH and am very interested in getting some first-hand experience.

I would love to be a laborer and help out in any way that is needed. What time slot would make the most sense to sign up for?

I'd say the "Innovators Event" would make most sense, since it is more focused on the innovators plans and ideas. I think the Tinkerer's Circus is for peeps who have done a bit of tinkering of their own and want to share that, and share other ideas too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

Also, GET THE EARLY BIRD PRICES HERE!

They end august 31!

Thank you, Cassie. That makes sense.

I am updating the prices.

I am separating out the food costs. So if people wanna come here and feed themselves, they can do that.

Of course, we will still feed the innovators. And people that pay for food will be able to eat with the innovators.

And I am also lowering the prices to take out the camping stuff and the airport rides. Staying here (in a tent, in your truck, etc.) will be $50, whether you stay one night or 20. Airport rides will be where you give $20 to your driver (double for late nights or early mornings) - to be paid, in cash, to the driver at the start of the ride.

Also, anybody with 10 or more apples can take $100 off. Just send the payment via paypal: paul at richsoil.com.

I have never seen an RMH nor have I built one but I am very interested in building one or more as a heat source, outdoor oven/stove and other uses too. I would love to get down and dirty building one, being part of the labor crew and seeing and touching RMH projects. Is there any part of this event I would be welcome to join. I would be coming from NY.

Don,

I think you will enjoy the whole thing. And you would be able to see and use the previous creations.

Don Huber wrote:I have never seen an RMH nor have I built one but I am very interested in building one or more as a heat source, outdoor oven/stove and other uses too. I would love to get down and dirty building one, being part of the labor crew and seeing and touching RMH projects. Is there any part of this event I would be welcome to join. I would be coming from NY.

Hi Don,

Have you checked out our webpage about the event here?

You can come for the whole thing, and you can buy your ticket in the "cost" section.

Let me know if you have any questions.

If you're going from NY I think it would be a waste of travel resources not to experience as much as possible while you're out there.

Are there any single rooms with electric I could get? Cost?

Since two weeks, any laundry access?

Meal cost on days no covered by registration?

Don Huber wrote:

Are there any single rooms with electric I could get? Cost?

Unfortunately, all of our rooms are spoken for at this point.

Since two weeks, any laundry access?

There won't be laundry access at base camp, but there is a coin-op laundromat a 10-minute drive away.

Meal cost on days no covered by registration?

We are not doing individual or daily meal pricing - we just don't have the bandwidth to get into that kind of tracking per person per meal.

Although for those paying for meals along with the 14-day Pyronaut's ticket, meals are included on the days in between events as well.

More specifically, when meals are purchased, it means this:

Tinkerer's Ticket - 3-day tinkerer's circus event - 10 meals, dinner, Tuesday, Oct. 6 through dinner, Friday, Oct. 9 ($150 for meals)

Innovator's Ticket - 5-day innovators event - 16 meals, dinner, Sunday, Oct. 11 through dinner, Friday, Oct. 16 ($210 for meals)

Observation Ticket Observation day (5th day of innovators event) - currently no meal option added

Pyronaut's Ticket all of the events, plus additional days - 37 meals, lunch Monday, Oct. 5 through lunch Saturday, Oct. 17 ($450 for meals)

Dining with Paul and the innovators means meals that are omnivore and WAPF/paleo-ish, generally gluten-free and dairy-free though with sides that might contain gluten, grains or dairy. The sides will often be vegetarian or vegan friendly. Right now, I think we will be cramming ourselves into the base camp little double-wide house (aka "the Fisher Price house") for meals.

From an e-mail last week:

I would love to attend the Pyronaut Event in October, but cannot because of scheduling conflicts. Are you going to sell DVD or have information available to those who cannot attend?

While I think Paul said he might try to have footage of this event taken, we cannot guarantee there will be a DVD of the event. In fact, if video footage is taken, it might be combined with other RMH DVDs, and not available separately. There are sooo many "ifs" with so many different factors that we are not planning or guaranteeing anything at this time.

And another e-mailed question (see the theme of how questions in the thread help more than just one person?):

Perhaps I missed this info but where is the pyronaut event located?

It is located about an hour away from Missoula, MT. The exact location is undisclosed until you actually purchase a ticket.

Glenn Herbert wrote:If you're going from NY I think it would be a waste of travel resources not to experience as much as possible while you're out there.

Along these lines, check out these threads:

Stuff to do in Missoula in October
summer things to do and see in Missoula.

Matt Walker wrote:If you have a small dwelling ready for heat I'd like to build a low profile cook stove/heater from a new design I'm working on currently.

Matt, I think I will have a small shelter ready for heat by the time of the event. I have already acquired a small barrel, (35 or 25 gallon maybe, not sure exactly,) and a piece of fireglass, (maybe a bit smaller than 2'x3'). My original plan was to build a rocket stove using Ernie's 4" design, but I don't actually know what that design looks like yet, so I'm open to ideas on how to use rocketry to heat my 10'x12' earth-integrated house. Cooking surface is essential, as is the fire-viewing window, hot water would be nice but not essential, mass-heating may not be necessary considering the size and mass of the structure. Let me know if this sounds interesting. Thanks.