Grapes trellised on trees / food forest vine layer

When training grapes or other climbers onto a tree, how far should you space the vine from the trunk? Other than the obvious girdling/strangulation concern and ensuring sufficient sunlight to get a crop, what other practical considerations have you run into with this technique? For those of us in humid climates, how much is airflow to prevent fungal disease a concern?

Hello Matt, i'd like to share my limited experience. My grape grew and grew. I made lines on poles for it to grow on. One branch touched the ground it grew roots and this made it could reach even further out and enter an elderberry. To the other side it also touched the ground which makes it grows 30 feet from the main root system, most it it sits on a trellis.
So that might be an option, start it a bit further on and grow lead it into the tree, let a branch root itself a bit closer to the stem. Maybe,maybe,maybe that won't interfere with the roots of the tree.
I haven't noticed any trouble with mold in the elder. But he, i am just one guy with one lousy example.
I hope someone with more experience chimes in.

There is a book also available online on Google books called "Landscapes of Bacchus: The vine in Portugal". There are several pages about an old portugese technique of growing grapevine on trees called "Arjoado". Maybe you will find your answer there..

Matt Mill wrote:When training grapes or other climbers onto a tree, how far should you space the vine from the trunk? Other than the obvious girdling/strangulation concern and ensuring sufficient sunlight to get a crop, what other practical considerations have you run into with this technique?

I just planted a grape vine earlier this year about a foot away from a young apple tree. It's been doing good, and I don't foresee any issues with the planting distance.

I've planted some more recently a little further away. I think two feet is the farthest I'm going to plant them away from the tree. The closer to the tree it is, without being too close, the easier it seems to train up the tree.

For those of us in humid climates, how much is airflow to prevent fungal disease a concern?

I have a grape vine growing up a wild privet bush in pretty thick vegetation, and so far I've found that it hasn't been an issue. Selecting disease resistant varieties and having healthy well draining soil seem to be the keys to not having disease issues so far.


Good luck growing grapes up a natural trellis if you decide to do it. I've really enjoyed it so far and don't plan to go back to building anymore trellises!

Thanks, all, for your experience and resources. Jan, I'll definitely be checking out the book.

1-2 feet away is closer than I would have defaulted to, so that's very helpful. Unfortunately I killed all of my cuttings of disease-resistant T.V. Munson varieties that I got free from Munson Vineyard this year, but next year hopefully we can get the natural trellis going.

I would think one would need to have quite a large tree for this, and preferably not a fruit tree or one that you care a lot about.  More importantly if the grape will not be pruned regularly.  No matter where the vine is planted, if it gets up into the tree it will eventually festoon a large part of the outer canopy, especially if light and moisture are adequate.  A low tree or shrub is fairly likely to be broken down under the grapevine....though at least the grapes will be more likely to be within reach for picking.  There is also the issue of birds....another reason I like my grapes strung out on conventional wires....I have to net them every year if I want any fruit at all.

Awesome resource Matt, will definitely have to check out some of those grape varieties, thanks for sharing!

Yes, Munson Vineyard is an incredible resource. T.V. Munson was a Luther Burbank kind of figure who bred hundreds of varieties of grapes using native American species (he saved the French wine industry by providing pest-resistant rootstocks), and now his varieties are preserved by this community college in Texas. So they'll send you free cuttings to help maintain the genetics—you just have to request them by Nov. 15 each year.

Munson's varieties are particularly well suited for those of us in humid Southern areas, but with so many varieties I bet there are some worth trialing about anywhere in North America. Many of the varieties are quite obscure, too, so you have to dig online to find information about them—for instance, Lon Rombough's book on grape growing doesn't cover many of them. "America" seems to have been his flagship cultivar; I requested types that are sold by my local permaculture nurseryman, Guy Ames: Lukfata, Elvicand, Marguerite, Fern Munson, Carman.

Although my cuttings failed, that was my fault—the cuttings were in great shape. They arrived in January, and I did find it a little challenging to store them successfully. In my area I couldn't start callusing and planting until late April, and it's not ideal to store them in your regular fridge, but that's all I have available. However, I think I have figured out some of the things I did wrong and hopefully I can relaunch my grape-growing operation in the spring.

If you are thinking of requesting cuttings from the Munson Vineyard that I linked to above, consider doing that soon. They stop taking requests at the start of November. I put in my request for the same types as those I killed last year just a bit ago.

Jumping into this vine thread with a question: I have this idea that I want grapes growing over a pergola shading my back deck. Someone told me it that is a terrible idea because the grapevines attract rats and other living things I don’t want dropping on my head. Feedback from those who know more?

Great resource for the cuttings!
I live in southern Ohio,  so varietals adapted to  hot and humid weather would be nice.

It's a small sample size,  to be sure.
I have had trouble with my vines grown on an arbor getting black rot, but thrones that fruited in a tree were fine.


As to growing grape  vines attracting rats,  I have vines down the east side of my house and all over a mulbery tree next to the boardwalk,  and I have rat problems, but the rats preceded the vines by many years.
They make themselves known in many places but never in the vines.

Jane Wilder-O'Connor wrote:Jumping into this vine thread with a question: I have this idea that I want grapes growing over a pergola shading my back deck. Someone told me it that is a terrible idea because the grapevines attract rats and other living things I don’t want dropping on my head. Feedback from those who know more?

We do get rats here in the city, but I've never noticed them going for the grapes particularly. The rats we have stay on the ground,  so they might go after fallen fruit.

Now raccoons, they LOVE a grape arbor.

No raccoons at all here! All the gophers, though! I hoped vines up high would be safe.

I looked at the Munson site but could not find a source for obtaining new vines. Is there a secret link I don’t know about?

Jane, i think William is onto something, he has rats and has never seen them in his grapevines. I guess it's possible they would go in at night, but they feel much safer on the ground. I'd worry more about attracting hornets and wasps. You have to take the grapes away when ripe or they will tell their nest members where to go. I use wasps to look for ripe grapes and other fruit and take it away. I'm not bothered, our wasps are quite passive and otherwise i take it early morning when it's too cold for them.
If you want something nice and natural you're always "negotiating" with nature how much your share is going to be, unless you kill nature. By observing and studying nature we can outsmart nature and turn flows our way. I find that enriches my life and i talk to likeminded folk who are trying to do the same.

It was a very hot and extremely dry year again and the grape in the elderberry did better than other places. I guess it appreciated the cooling and grapes were biggest in the tree. It was not structured for climbing in. So a lot went to feed the wasps. The bee eaters were very happy with that abundance and i have learnt to recognize their screeches this year.

I've been looking after about 25 grape cuttings in pots, 20 of my neighbor which have big sweet grapes , i am going to plant them on our food plot. Mostly in trellises made of pseudo acacia robinia. They'll function as a shade barrier as summers get dryer and produce grapes as a bonus. Small fruit trees are there as well, so they'll enter those in time.

It will be fine. I've seen a Native American tribesman on a film about permaculture, he said we plant one third for the wild life, one third for the tribe and one third for the planter. I believe that is a balance i can live with.

 

It's that time of year again: time to look at requesting free grape cuttings of disease-resistant varieties from Munson Vineyard.

To request cuttings please send an e-mail to hullr@grayson.edu. The deadline to order for a spring delivery is November 15.

I have not gotten a great take rate from my cuttings  so far, but I'm going to persevere. Many of the varieties they offer are now obscure, so any reports on performance of specific varieties would be most welcome. I have a Carman vine that I will plant out in its permanent spot this fall, and I plan to request cuttings of another couple varieties. You can see pictures and further description of a few types at Guy Ames' site.

This  youtube videois of a grape arbor made of roundwood and traditional joinery at Wheaton Labs. Not  quite a trellis on a tree, but those posts they use are the closest thing to a tree you could get without the leaves and associated humidity issues. Maybe it could be built into the forest garden?