Does organic food turn people into jerks?

Curious as to what ya'll think of this article that is from "Today Health" http://todayhealth.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/18/11737146-does-organic-food-turn-people-into-jerks?lite. I am really new to this arena, and it seems like the idea of permaculture is to help others by shaping a healthier environment and sharing the abundance. This seems to be the opposite of this article, that portrays "organic people" as arrogant. I realize this may be a media plot to undermine healthier eating, but I do not know all the variables. I recently listened to Paul Wheaton on one of his podcast where he was wondering what it would take jump start permaculture to the forefront of mainstream thinking. If the assesment of "organic people" is correct, maybe this is one of the "straws" preventing permaculture from becoming more firmly established beyond a cultic practice.

No, organic food turns people into zombies.......hahahah!

Wow 60 whole people in three groups of 20. In the whole history of experimental science I don't think such a massive and wide sampling has ever been taken (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

Joking aside, this study is very weak. Self righteousness and judgmental attitudes exist in fair quantities in all groups. I mean heck just watch the news. This side looks down on that side. That side looks down on this side.... and all from a base of moral conviction that each side sees itself as right. I beleive this has always existed and probably always will to one degree or another.

There seems to be something in us humans that makes us want to shame others into seeing the world the way we do rather than leading by example and making our point of view attractive to others. It did not just show up on the human scene with the re-introduction of organic food.

Does reading turn people into jerks?

Could you imagine that headline? Um, nope. But have you ever been in an English lit. class or a book club? The discussions can get rather snooty/bitchy/nasty.

Some people who are new converts to anything can seem strident to the non-converts.

Ha ha!

Anyone ever see the episode of Southpark where everyone that buys a hybrid car starts smelling their own farts and a cloud of "smug" coming from San Francisco and a George Cloney speech almost destroys the planet?

I think it is important to understand there is a difference in attitude in say two types of people

Person One - Grows organic food, buys local, is involved, knows why organic is better, knows in many ways organic isn't good enough, supports CSAs, studies permaculture, etc.

Person Two - Lives in New York City, thinks Central Park is nature, shops at whole foods, owns a prius, installs CFLs and supports a few causes with some checks and does all this because it is trendy and they have some high paying job that makes the choices easy to make.

It isn't that organic food makes people arrogant, it is simply that many arrogant, self righteous, self important, green washers choose organic food to be "trendy".

nahh..most people are jerks anyway...it just takes something to scratch the surface for it to come out.

Me, I am not a jerk. I am an asshole. lol.

Lloyd George wrote:

Me, I am not a jerk. I am an asshole. lol.

Now, if I can somehow figure out how to save this, I can quote it if ever I disagree with Lloyd.

Would that make me a jerk?

I wonder if a marketing campaign for organic food could be built around this. How about "Wholelier Than Thou, Organics"

hey, I am an asshole with Congressional confirmation...and those guys know A-hole. (Navy CPO..lol)


Wholesomer than thou organics...catering primarily to religious zealots. oh, I 'm gonna get some mileage out of that on facebook...

I went to the link and read it through. I have to say I am absolutely appalled that this could be called preofessional journalism! I had to go back and look at the byline to see if it was written by Rush Limbaugh! Not to mention the so-called study. 60 people divided into 3 groups?!!! That is not a study, that's an informal poll in a small class room. Even with the small numbers, it might have had more merit if the study itself was not so obviously flawed. I mean, how does the researcher draw the conclusion that it was looking at pictures of organic produce that made people respond the way they did in his little fake study about volunteering, etc.? The point difference between the 3 tiny groups was so negligible that it did not even amount to a statistical blip. I would wager that you could randomly pick any 60 people off the street, divide them into 3 groups of 20 and without showing them any pictures at all, find they would behave in the exact same way. This "research" sounds to me like someone who already had a point to make and used a really lame "study" to make it look like he "proved" his theory. I'd sure like to see some real science once in awhile. Sigh...

So which is the bigger annoyance:



1. Arrogant, preachy, whole foods, organic, Prius guy telling you what you should be eating. " I'd starve before I ate anything non-organic... blah blah blah"


2. Arrogant, preachy, fast food, diabetic, heart attack waiting-to-happen guy telling you you're wasting your time and money on what you eat. "Food is food and organic is just marketing to make you pay more for food.... BURRRRRRP!"

3. A vegan wearing leather boots.

@ Craig -- all three!!

Thanks everyone for a hilarious thread

"At my local grocery, I sometimes catch organic eyes gazing into my grocery cart and scowling," says Sue Frause, a 61-year-old freelance writer/photographer from Whidbey Island. "So I'll often toss in really bad foods just to get them even more riled up."

Gee, I wonder who they're writing this for? Folks who need to justify their Conventional eating habits, perhaps?

P Thickens wrote:

"At my local grocery, I sometimes catch organic eyes gazing into my grocery cart and scowling," says Sue Frause, a 61-year-old freelance writer/photographer from Whidbey Island. "So I'll often toss in really bad foods just to get them even more riled up."

Gee, I wonder who they're writing this for? Folks who need to justify their Conventional eating habits, perhaps?

Yeah, that line really got to me too. How can someone just assume that someone looking into their grocery cart IS organic, much less what they are thinking about?! And even if the person was thinking exactly what she thought, isn't her reaction to it rather aggressive and childish? Who is the real jerk in that situation?

I am a vegetarian as well as a locavore and organic gardener and I try to be as organic in my purchases as possible. What gets me are all the carnivore/junk food addicts who feel it is totally appropriate for them to tell me I am a nutcase and express disgust that I do not consume meat, etc. I've had people I don't even know come up to me and say incredibly rude things about vegetarians just because I politely refused to eat meat. Usually, I'm just minding my own business at some social gathering or in a store or something and a situation arises where someone tries to get me to taste something with meat in it. After politely refusing without explanation, and then being pressed again to just take a taste, I am forced to say, no thank you, I am a vegetarian. You would think I had just said I wanted to kill and eat their children! They take it sooooo personally!

I gaze at other peoples' grocery carts and want to cry. Especially if they have children. Nothing but processed "food" and soda. And people wonder why they're obese, diabetic and depressed.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I gaze at other peoples' grocery carts and want to cry. Especially if they have children. Nothing but processed "food" and soda. And people wonder why they're obese, diabetic and depressed.

I agree. Around here most people live well below poverty level, but it doesn't stop them from shopping in convenience stores and picking up several cartons of cigarettes and an armload of lottery tickets while their children -- usually 4 or 5 under the age of 10 -- hang out the windows of the hot car waiting. It is so sad - the kids are all pale, skinny and with black circles under their eyes. The parents come out, toss the kids a bag of chips and a soda and then drive off puffing away on their cigarettes. Not only are the kids suffering malnutrition, but they are dying from second-hand smoke. You never see those same people shopping in the produce or dairy sections of the grocery stores. Their carts are always full of super sugary cereal, soda, chips and any other thing they can throw to the kids so they can get back to scratching numbers off those lottery tickets. I know this sounds like I am just raking up a stereotype, but come spend a week in my neck of the woods and you will see what I mean. The really sad thing is that most people around here have land or at least big yards, but almost no one grows anything. They generally stay in their air conditioned houses and watch tv all day. For entertainment outside the house, they stand on the porch and shoot at things in the yard. If they would even try to grow a few vegetables, those kids would be so much better off. It really is very sad and it all comes down to ignorance really. I don't think they are intrinsically bad people, they just never had any real education.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I gaze at other peoples' grocery carts and want to cry. Especially if they have children. Nothing but processed "food" and soda. And people wonder why they're obese, diabetic and depressed.

I look in my own grocery cart sometimes and wonder what on earth other people think of me. All the 'good stuff' is grown at home, so every now and then we fill up on the 'crap' from the store and it looks like that's *all* we ever eat. It's generally a bottle of cola for me, beer for my other half, butter, some noodles to pad out the stir fries, a pack of teabags and a load of whatever is in the 'reduced' section to add a bit of variety.

I hate to say it but I'm a cart gazer too. I can't help it. But, time and time again the food in the cart matches up to the body pushing the cart. Crap food in the cart = big sweaty slob pushing it. Usually trailing a couple tubby little porkers with them. It's sad because of the kids. They don't really have a choice in the matter so they end up suffering. Sometimes I feel like saying " Hey, you know that you're all fat, sweaty and sloppy because of that garbage in the shopping cart right?"

Victoria is Canada's healthiest city, with a huge amount of park land and many natural features that lead people outside for some exercise. It's also a gathering ground for people from across the country who have moved here for the good of their health, often to the detrement of their earning power. We have several stores and a farmer's market that sell only organic food and most stores have an organic section. Even the Wal Mart sells organic food. Self righteousness and judgmental attitudes may breed in this environment but whatever the cause, more and more people are choosing organic. I don't view that as a negative. Even those who live on chocolate bars and chips are regularly exposed to the idea of eating and living better. I know a few people who have lost major amounts of weight while living here.

Of the 300,000 residents living in greater Victoria, I'm pretty sure that I'm the most notable shopping cart gazer and commentator. Whenever I'm lined up behind someone who has made a lot of really sensible food choices, I say somethig about it. I was recently lined up behind a very fit lady in a bicycle helmet, who had lots of good stuff and no junk in her pile. I said, "We have a winner of the healthiest diet contest." She was quite pleased and let us know that she is 74 and has lots more growing in her own garden.

Sometimes, I'll say "Look at that healthy food, this guy is gonna live to 200." When I was lined up behind a whole family of healthy eaters, one of the kids volunteered that instead of candy, she prefers pistachios and dried mango. When I mentioned that healthy kids are stronger, her little brother showed everybody his muscles. He was dressed for soccer but happily switched to body builder showman when egged on by his dad.

The quantity of good food sold here means that it has become mainstream. These aren't all wealthy snoots who shop to be seen. They are average people whose priorities cause them to make above average choices.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote: Sometimes I feel like saying " Hey, you know that you're all fat, sweaty and sloppy because of that garbage in the shopping cart right?"

While waiting with my daughter at the Grey Hound station, a very fat, very irritating boy who was about 6 made a major scene in front of a vending machine full of junk. It went on for a couple minutes until finally I said quite loudly, "Shut up. You're too fat." The whole place went silent. His mother looked my way and then took him outside. My daughter was appalled. "Dad you're so embarrassing."

I was expecting that some fool might confront me on this. None did. What I said was true. He was too loud and too fat. It's his parent's fault but it will be his lifelong problem if not nipped in the bud. Quite often, friends tell me that I should hold my tounge due to someone's feelings. But I know that no amount of Opra-esque body acceptance crap will cure the obesity epedemic. Perhaps it's time to try public embarrassment and exclusion.

As much as those people annoy the hell out of me, I do realize that a lot of it has to do with a lack of "food education". Most people simply don't know how vastly different processed food is from real food. My dad is one of these people who thinks that High fructose is the same as sugar. And that you can wash pesticide off of food and that it's safe anyway if you don't. When I try to educate him about this stuff he brushes me off and goes on to some other topic. It's sad because he's already had a heart attack which let to triple bypass surgery. He didn't learn his lesson and now has to take daily medication for his heart AND diabetes. He even tries to tell me that he's "Healthy" according to his doctor. He STILL eat likes crap.

I want to shake him and say "Hey you're setting a shitty example for your grand kids and I don't want to have to explain to them that you're dead because shitty food was more important than living long enough to watch them grow up".


AHHHHHHH! This get's me so mad because it requires a TON of denial and ignorance to get into such a situation. How do people do it? How do they just let themselves go like that? Don't they want to live?

I'm with Dale to a degree here. Maybe people should say something, especially when young kids are involved. Eating crap food could be just as detrimental to a kid as living in a meth lab. It's all about how you go about it I guess.

Craig Dobbelyu wrote:

I'm with Dale to a degree here. Maybe people should say something, especially when young kids are involved. Eating crap food could be just as detrimental to a kid as living in a meth lab. It's all about how you go about it I guess.

"to a degree" That's more than I usually get.

The thing at the bus terminal is rare for me. Positive comments are much more common. Occasionally, I'll see a pile of pop and chips and ask "What would your mom say about this". It always goes over well. "It's for a party" ... Quite often cashiers say that they can tell without looking up wheather the next customer is healthy looking.

When judging which line to get into when I'm in a hurry, I avoid lining up behind anybody who has junk food if they're really skinny. Ciggarettes are not displayed, so when they order them, the cashier must run over to customer service to get them. I've become pretty good at predicting which customer is there for ciggarettes.

It went on for a couple minutes until finally I said quite loudly, "Shut up. You're too fat."

Dale, congratulations. I have finally met somebody that can be as "politically uncorrect" as I.

I believe that if everybody was always politically correct, there would never be any change in any facet of life. Sometimes, (I believe,) somebody needs to say something that 'rocks-the-boat'. Otherwise, things will continue 'as usual'.

I once watched a TV show about obesity. As I remember, there was a Dr, a nutritionist, an advocacy group 'pro', a very obese person, somebody else, and a celebrity MC. At one point, the obese person stated "Obesity is a disease", to which the Dr replied "If obesity is a disease, it is the only one I know of that can be cured by shutting your mouth, and getting off of your ass!".

The reply was greeted both with "boo's" and cheers. But it got people thinking.

John Polk wrote:

It went on for a couple minutes until finally I said quite loudly, "Shut up. You're too fat."

Dale, congratulations. I have finally met somebody that can be as "politically uncorrect" as I.

John, it's time we had a politically incorrect contest. Unfortunately that would result in deletion. Let me just say that one of my favorite "show stoppers" is the C word. The word is candy of course. Bad for the teeth.

I'd also like to say for the record that reving your engine at a crosswalk is no way to move move slow pokes along.

And , there is absolutely nothing funny about anything that William Picton has ever done.



I've eaten quite a bit of organic food so it may have turned off my filter and turned me into a jerk.

I could just imagine the mistaken impression someone could get from looking in my grocery cart. Yesterday all that was in my basket was a bottle of white wine (to relax after driving all day in Costa Rica for business, much needed, believe me), a bag of plantain chips for my wife who likes them as a treat, ten fuji apples, which were a dollar a piece (imported here), and two bottles of water (to try to keep hydrated while driving so many hours).

I spent more at the fruit stands a long the way.

After all, we just butchered a cow, have fish in the ponds, veggies in the garden, etc. What more do I need than stuff I can't grow? (forget grapes here, no chilling period) Oh, and we have goats and make our own cheeses.

At one time in my life my beautiful wife felt I should start a career as an herbal healer and health advisor - helping people to eat better and live a more natural lifestyle. We had a vision of the guest house out back as a kind of alternative clinic. Not exactly Naturopathy but counseling for lifestyle changes and use of organic foods and herbs. After meditating on it I decided that I could not tolerate the kind of folks that use those services. I call them Holistic Honeybuns. No offense . We grow our own and really enjoy the fruits of our labor. It is not therapy to me , its the joy of life. I don't wallow in societies sickness , I just ignore it and create an alternative view for my kids to see. People drive me insane. If they are jerks , I guess that makes me an asshole.Before I put up a fence On my farm , I put up a gate. Unlike Salatin , mine is not transparent. Nothing to hide I just dont want a bunch of jerks coming around whining about constipation and their fibromyalgia. Suck it up , eat healthy , work hard and you'll get over it. My hippy, redneck and hillbilly freinds know to just open the gate and drive on in.

We do not have TV reception here, so we watch movies for entertainment. I brought to my children's attention all of the beautiful people in the movies and wondered, if they put a bunch of obese folks on TV, would the obese viewers see themselves?

Maybe get the idea that fat ain't beautiful after all?

I also applaud anyone that corrects someone else's child if they need it. These days it might get you shot, or worse though.

Yeah - I know I'm going to get blowback from this but, WOW - lots of fat hate here. REALLY didn't expect that from the permaculture community. I keep hoping, and working towards, a society that is more tolerant of many ways of looking and being (as I have just lost my right eye - making fun of people's physical appearance is NOT something which I'm a fan of for obvious reasons). Holding up "beautiful people" on tv as a standard to strive for, who are wearing heavy makeup and many of whom have had "work" - is a questionable practice in my book. I mean, are you teaching your kids that being "fake" is better than being "fat"? There are a lot of celebrities who are really up front about what they go through to look good on screen - some even needing to be filmed with special lenses. Even they get that its fake.

As an aside, I'll point out that more than a few renown permies are fat/obese - including Paul Wheaton himself. Bill Mollison. Sepp Holzner. John D. Liu. I'm sure I could go on. So what is it that these fine folks are doing "wrong"? They are obviously active and have decent diets. It does make one wonder...

And I'm with the folks who would "look bad" in the stores. What I can't grow myself, I buy from a farmer's market. So grocery shopping is for soda - yes I drink it - and the occasional treat.