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Tyler Ludens
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I've found it takes a lot of practice, and I still screw up sometimes.....
 
Tyler Ludens
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Do you ever get tired of debating? I do.

Sometimes I just want to be able to share my opinion or personal experience without it being debated.

 
Burra Maluca
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Tyler Ludens wrote:Do you ever get tired of debating? I do.

Sometimes I just want to be able to share my opinion or personal experience without it being debated.



I'd just like to remind everyone that permies.com is NOT a site for debating, it's for discussion. We will moderate hard to ensure that discussion doesn't sink to debate.
 
Wyatt Barnes
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Egad I read the entire thread, although to be perfectly honest I scanned some of the longer comments. I would like to say that I find this forum quite pleasant and also find it extremely odd that anyone would not agree that Paul's comfort zone would be the defining factor in right or wrong in Paul's universe. You pay the piper you call the tune, I play in Paul's universe, I play by Paul's rules. I would like to add that for myself I try to live by the rule " play nice " and it fits here as well. If you are getting angry and argumentative you are taking life too seriously, no-one gets out alive, no-one takes anything with them and what we mostly leave are others memories of our behaviour. Played nice will suit me fine.
 
Henry Coulder
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Burra Maluca wrote:I'd just like to remind everyone that permies.com is NOT a site for debating, it's for discussion.  We will moderate hard to ensure that discussion doesn't sink to debate.


Hello, just thought I'd ask what you, Burra, think about the similarity for the words and definitions for debating and discussion...

Verb: debate
1. Argue with one another
2. Think about carefully; weigh
3. Discuss the pros and cons of an issue
4. Have an argument about something

Noun: discussion
1. An extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic
2. An exchange of views on some topic

Source: WordWeb.info

...and perhaps it being quite the same definitions when we choose to mean the right one from the list (so not #1 & #4 from 'debate') but either or both of the other two definitions for 'debate' to mean (i.e.  2. Think about carefully; weigh and 3. Discuss the pros and cons of an issue).
I see how it's quite similar / can be given a lot of leeway to using debate or discussion (1. An extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic 2. An exchange of views on some topic)

What do you think? Thanks
 
Tracy Wandling
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I think the key here is whether or not the person you are 'conversing' with actually wants a 'debate'. There is a difference, and it's pretty obvious to most people. I enjoy conversations which are an exchange of ideas, but I rarely enjoy debating with someone who is only trying to change my mind and be right. I don't find it enjoyable or helpful, just annoying and disrespectful.

I don't know about most other people on this forum, but I don't come here to debate. I have a thread where I present my idea, plans and dreams, and I don't expect anyone to come to my thread and debate with me whether my ideas are right or wrong. But I don't mind someone dropping by and sharing their ideas and experiences with me, and perhaps answering some of the questions I put forth there. That's pleasant.

I believe the idea here on this forum is to share ideas, not try to make people come around to your way of thinking, or tell people they are wrong, or critique their ideas. If they come right out and ask for feedback, it is quite simple to put forth your ideas without saying that their ideas are wrong. If the person posting doesn't actually want a debate, then it is only polite to not debate with them. And I think it is safe to say that most people here aren't interested in a debate (although there may be forums where that sort of thing is more acceptable). Just present your own ideas, your own experiences, and your own plans, and let other people have their own ideas, experiences, and plans, without you telling them they're wrong.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
 
Burra Maluca
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Words seem to be used differently in different places, and the meaning tends to shift through time.

This article seems to summarise how I feel about the differences (though I find the way the title is worded amusingly ironic - that 'versus' in it implies debate to me right from the word go) - Discussion vs Debate

Here are a few quotes

  The goal of debate
Simply stated, the object of any true debate is to win; to achieve victory for your side and inflict defeat on the other. Debate is a zero-sum game: In order for you to win, your opponent has to lose. Debate has that in common with war. As a result, debate is deeply anti-intellectual.

The object of discussion
The goal of an ideal discussion, as I’m defining it here, is to learn (and to teach, which is a form of learning). Unlike debate, it’s not zero-sum, rather it’s win-win. Discussion is like market exchange insofar as each side does it for mutual gain.


I think this Magic School Bus episode illustrates the potential problems with debate rather nicely, and has a nice permaculture twist to boot.



The rule, by the way, is not mine.  It's part and parcel of what permies.com is all about.  There's a thread here about it, which is probably where any further discussion should take place.  

Again, it has that amusingly ironic 'versus' right there in the title debate vs sharing...

 
Joseph Lofthouse
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Thanks Judith Browning for this image:
 
Karen Donnachaidh
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So simplistic, easy, basic; yet, so profound. C'est la vie.
 
r ranson
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Yesterday, I heard on the radio a story.  It's a real story that happened last week but is still making headlines in our neck of the woods. 

A public official was in a grocery store.  A person came up to her and said, "Hi, My name is so and so, and I don't like you at all.  I never have liked you, and I never will."

I paraphrased that because this story isn't about what so and so said.  It's about what happened next.

The public official basically said thank you for your opinion, and turned away.  The whole thing took 7 seconds and was captured on video.  Social media and media have spent a week talking about these seven seconds and how the public official is very likely going to loose her job and her party the next election over these seven seconds.  They talk at great length about how she should have responded.  Not one of them saw this interaction from the "be nice" point of view.

This kind of situation comes up at permies from time to time.  When it does, we look for patterns and we look for the source of the conflict.  We look deeper.  The media only saw the brushoff and the public official walking away.  I think the first person wasn't being very nice.  She walks up to the public official and starts the conversation off with hostility, basically saying, "I don't like you at all and now I demand you listen to me".  I think that is just bad manners.  Public official or no, you don't walk up to someone and say "hi, you don't know me but I think you suck! now let me tell you all the ways you suck and why all the problems of the world are on you."  No, she didn't say those words, but I imagine that is what the other felt like she was hearing.  To start a conversation with an emotional jab like that and then expect the other person to come around to your point of view? 

The funny thing to me is, that the first person doesn't even realize she was not being nice.  She felt these were the words that would get the other person to listen to her gripes. 

If this had happened on permies, we would have taken this person and reminded her of this thread.  We might suggest insulting another person like that is not a sucessful way to start a dialogue.  Other steps would happen and instead of having two people being rude to eachother, we would have none.  I like this way better.
 
Karlton Anderson
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Sometimes people are depressed, in a bad shape so they lurk around the community like this one. And then they bump into others problem and instead of helping them or giving sort of advice they throw wood fire to chain their problem. I'm not saying moderators have to deal with this post and remove them. We just need to understand people with anxiety problem they need attention so they started a fire. If they don't tame for the moment we reach out to them that's a big causing trouble that should be taken place ASAP.
 
Deb Rebel
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We all need to learn to 'live well'. This to mean respecting others no matter what their bent, belief, occupation... expecting them to treat you the same but DEAL with it if they don't. Continue on living. Hope you see the day they see the light, for their sake, but by the same token don't gloat it, celebrate it with them. If they never do, at least to your way of thinking, move on. The other bit is 'don't let them live rent-free in your head. They don't deserve it.'

Be serious about what you believe in. You do have a right to your opinion.

Be sincere. Pray it like you mean it. Dance like no one's watching. Take the me-time. Savor the moment.

Hurt no one with what you do. This is the hardest one.

The first one doesn't mean you have the right to foist your seriousness on any one or anything (see third one). As the one song says 'You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything'. That's okay.
Second one, don't embroider it up. You believe in it, you're honest about it, it's plain. That's fine too.

The third one. Including here. We wish to respect others, let them have the same rights and respect we reserve for ourselves. Think twice before you post it. The internet never forgets and it will be here forever after you.

Don't let them live rent free in your head, you have other things to do than dwell on it and circle it forever. It may take some mull and that is okay, but pack up and move on.

So think twice, and give others the courtesy, kindness, and respect you wish to receive. As for our moderators here, they are volunteers that want to keep things at Permies that way.

So please, be kind. Be thoughtful. Be patient. Be respectful. We're all human, we're all mortal, and (at least for me) when I mess up it's usually a lulu. I can own up to it and move on. Please, if I do know I did it and I've owned up to it, let's work on letting us both move on.

Thanks.
 
Karen Donnachaidh
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Some days, when you feel like you have been stretched thin, roughed up and you've put in a hard days work that is hardly noticed, it's nice to know that there's still a nice place to go. Thanks to all who make it so.
 
paul wheaton
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when talking about facts, a common argument is if somebody says "the sky is green" then folks wanna call bullshit on that.   I advocate that a person could say "I think the sky is green" and that statement becomes irrefutable fact.   After all, nobody can argue what it is that another person thinks. 

Besides ...





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Travis Johnson
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Sometimes it is all about perspective.

Last week there was a topic regarding livestock guard dogs, and the topic could have turned into a Burra-described debate because of that reason alone. It basically was about if it was worth it to get two livestock guard dogs for only a few animals to protect.

In the end I realized I WAS OUT OF LINE because I am a full time farmer that uses permiculture techniques as my only income stream. But in this case it was regarding what amounts to hobby farming and really what I was saying, what my perspective was; did not line up well. In some ways I feel obligated to explain things from my perspective so that any lurkers might learn, or regulator contributors who want to someday take their farms to full-time status can have a better understanding of the mind-set that it will take to get there; but in this case it was about hobby farm type decisions.

No moderators ever got involved, and the other person is someone I admire and respect, and if I could would buy him a coffee, a bag of dog food for his livestock guard dog,and help around his place for a week if I could. The guy is a just a great guy. We just have different perspectives,and sometimes that can spark debate. The key is too look at that perspective and see if it might be out of line.
 
Wes Hunter
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Travis, I think the difference there is in understanding--and making understandable--the context.  I just reread that thread, and to my eye at least there was nothing suggestive of you being out of line, or a lack of "being nice."  Part of this, I assume, is getting to know how a person 'speaks' in this forum, being able to at least partially estimate tone and intention.  And part of it is being able to gather from the context of the entire post/conversation just what exactly a person is saying.

Pertaining to the latter, in your case it was, I think, quite evident where you were coming from (i.e. the context of your comments), so it should have been clear that you weren't offering absolutes ("the sky is blue") but were offering what is true within a given paradigm ("the sky is blue in Maine at noon on a clear day").  I think that fits fully within the standard of "be nice."

That, then, allows others to offer up dissenting points of view, without it having to be distilled down to an either/or proposition.  Because it's specified (even implicitly) that the sky is blue in Maine at noon on clear day, there is ample room for the response that the sky is gray in Oregon on an overcast day.  And neither person need be wrong.

What's more, unless a question is asked in a very specific way, I tend to assume that a variety of folks giving responses from a variety of places in a variety of unique situations is only beneficial.  A person might be asking a question that concerns his or her "hobby farm," but that doesn't render your "commercial" perspective invalid.  Heck, even if it's clear that the OP is ONLY concerned with "hobby farm" scale and economics and so forth, it maybe ought to be realized that a given thread is going to be read by a wide variety of folks, and so a given perspective might be irrelevant to the OP but extremely useful to another reader.  These threads do not exist in a vacuum.
 
James Freyr
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Wes Hunter wrote:...getting to know how a person 'speaks' in this forum, being able to at least partially estimate tone and intention.  And part of it is being able to gather from the context of the entire post/conversation just what exactly a person is saying.


I think this can be tricky, and I'm not perfect and I certainly think I've been guilty of this on both sides. There's a couple posts I've made in the past that, looking back and rereading it, I think "man I can see how that could be misinterpreted as snippy or defensive. I could have chosen better words to communicate my point." I don't go back and edit those posts to alter them to avoid a possible misinterpretation, I leave them be. And I believe I also have poorly estimated tone of a few posts.

Reading written text and applying tone or intention when you can't listen to the emphasis on the same words spoken originally penned by the author can easily lead to misinterpretation. We're all human. Sometimes the tone intended can be clearly obvious. People say some rude shit over on reddit, sometimes downright distasteful, and I imagine these poor folks just living a bitter existence, not having found their path in life. I hardly ever see any of that here on permies, and if I have stumbled across something blatantly rude, I notice the post is often removed a short while later.
 
Wes Hunter
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I agree that it can be tricky, James, but I think that over time a person can get a decent feel for another's tone and/or context.  Concerning Travis's comments, for example, it doesn't take long to understand where he's coming from.  Granted, part of this is because he's quite explicit as to his situation, but I think part of it is just a matter of figuring out how a given person 'speaks.'  That takes time, and isn't foolproof, but I think it goes a long way.

On another note, perhaps a corollary to the "be nice" rule is "assume the other person is being nice."  I'm sure a lot of hostility could be avoided if everyone just assumed that nobody else was being hostile.  There are times when hostility is obvious, but in cases of uncertainty I'd think that assuming the best would go a long way toward keeping things decent.
 
Todd Parr
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Travis Johnson wrote:Sometimes it is all about perspective.

Last week there was a topic regarding livestock guard dogs, and the topic could have turned into a Burra-described debate because of that reason alone. It basically was about if it was worth it to get two livestock guard dogs for only a few animals to protect.

In the end I realized I WAS OUT OF LINE because I am a full time farmer that uses permiculture techniques as my only income stream. But in this case it was regarding what amounts to hobby farming and really what I was saying, what my perspective was; did not line up well. In some ways I feel obligated to explain things from my perspective so that any lurkers might learn, or regulator contributors who want to someday take their farms to full-time status can have a better understanding of the mind-set that it will take to get there; but in this case it was about hobby farm type decisions.

No moderators ever got involved, and the other person is someone I admire and respect, and if I could would buy him a coffee, a bag of dog food for his livestock guard dog,and help around his place for a week if I could. The guy is a just a great guy. We just have different perspectives,and sometimes that can spark debate. The key is too look at that perspective and see if it might be out of line.


Considering that I am that other person, I feel obligated to respond

I didn't in any way take anything you said as being out of line.  I don't disagree with anything you said, it's simply that we were each looking at it from our own perspective, which is as it has to be.  The respect and admiration is mutual, and I enjoy our discussions.  As I have said before, I sometimes prefer to disagree with someone I admire.  No one learns anything new if everyone involved agrees.  If you took any of my comments as anything other than just discussion, I apologize.  I would much prefer we could discuss things over a day's work on either of our places.  Tone and body language have such an impact on discussions. 
 
r ranson
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Travis, I love that you bring your point of view to the forum.  I wish we could have a dozen more like you.

We're all from different situations.  Some live in tiny apartments, some have a bit of land, some have more land.  That's what I love about this forum, there are so many different points of view.  I want to hear them all!
 
r ranson
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Thank you everyone, for making this site so incredibly awesome.

Stuff and things happened.

My conclusion, I much prefer a moderated site.   Users and staff alike, you guys at permies rock!
 
Karen Donnachaidh
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r ranson wrote: you guys at permies rock!


R., You're the "queen of rock". Thanks for all you do. We have an incredible group here at Permies. It really does take venturing elsewhere, to know the real value of this awesome site. It's tops!
 
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