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cold tolerant pomegranates

shane jennings

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posted 8 years ago

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Where are you from?

Kyrt Ryder

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Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

posted 8 years ago

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Cool summer mild winter Western Washington, where winter lows rarely drop below 20F [most years get a few nights, I can only remember one night in my life it went to 9F] and summer highs hover around 80F most days, with days over 90F being rare and days over 100F not happening most years.

shane jennings

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posted 8 years ago

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I would suggest a soft seeded variety called Sumbar. Last Thursday I just posted descriptions of cold tolerant soft seeded varieties that are surviving in my climate that is similar to yours. Go to my Facebook page for Alabama Pomegranate Association for descriptions.

Thanks,

Shane

shane jennings

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Kyrt,

Let me know if you are able to find the Israel cultivars?
Sumbar is ready by July in Texas from what I read and has survived 7 degree temperatures.

Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Which part of July? I ask because our summer [mid-june through mid-september] tends to be quite sunny and dry, but sometime in September the rains come and the clouds basically don't go away.

We pretty much go from Dog Days of Summer [for our region, which means high 80's] to autumn [60's without sun most days] rather abruptly.

If it's early July in Texas we probably have a shot of ripening it by frost in early October.

EDIT: yeah, if I manage to find them I'll be sure to post the source in this thread. Here's a nursery I found in Israel that seems connected to them, but attempts to contact them using English have met with nothing but failure.

shane jennings

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posted 8 years ago

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I'm not sure! You probably can call Womack Nursery in Texas. But your spring may start later than their since you are further north.

Thekla McDaniels

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Hi Kurt, I see you are from Washington. Have you checked with Raintree Nursery. They are located in Washington and specialize in plants for the North West climate. All kinds of odd ball fruiting plants too. They carry several varieties of pomegranates.

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Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Thekla McDaniels wrote:Have you checked with Raintree Nursery.

I have checked with Raintree, Burntridge, and OneGreenWorld.

None of them have any of the extra early cultivars and warn that a hot summer is necessary.

I surmise they're selling poms predominantly to Eastern PNWers who protect the plants in a high tunnel or somesuch. [That or just shipping them extended distances, all three seem to do quite a bit of business out-of-region.]

Ken W Wilson

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Posts: 1190

Location: Nevada, Mo 64772

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posted 8 years ago

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Has anyone tried them in MO? They claim we're zone 6 now, but I'm old enough to remember some very cold winter. I think we should be zone five. We have a lot of summer heat and droughts are common, but spring is usually very rainy and sometimes fall is too rainy. I'm 90 miles south of Kansas City. Is it at all possible? If it might be possible, can anyone recommend a variety and a source? I'm willing to try things that may not work, but I like to have some idea of the odds I'm facing.

shane jennings

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I found people talking about these 3 varieties being the most cold tolerant for now. Maybe one day Thekla's seedlings might prove otherwise or my seedlings from Tajikistan. But for now. These are the ones coldest here in the USA. I have another forum on Permies titled "heirloom pomegranates" that a man in Oklahoma is growing some.

"Entek habi Saveh" (originally from Iran)
"Salavatski" from the Turkmenistan collection
"Kazake" from the Turkmenistan collection

Some of these have survived below zero.

Nurseries Rolling River Nursery, Green Sea Farms, Wade Blueberry & Nursery, & Pom Natural.

Ken W Wilson

pollinator

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Location: Nevada, Mo 64772

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Thanks. Your other forum looks interesting and so does Rolling River I didn't get to the other sites yet. Thanks!

shane jennings

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I'm so glad this was helpful! The plants from Rolling River Nursery are very heathy and shipped in soil giving them a greater start. All the companies are great to work with though!

shane jennings

Posts: 69

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Thekla,

How is the progress of your seedlings? Did they survive this winter? Spring is around the corner for you. Any updates?

Thanks,

Shane Jennings

Thekla McDaniels

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posted 7 years ago

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Time for an update on my pomegranates: I've taken photographs, but am having trouble getting them to show up.

The seeds that came from Kashmir have now spent 2 or 3 winters in the ground, only the first winter were they heavily mulched. Now at the end of their growing season, they are small shrubs 2-3 feet high. They are healthy. There was no sign of developing blossom on any of them this year. I have about half the number I planted out.

Here they are

IMG_6391-(1).jpg

IMG_6392-(1).jpg

IMG_6390-(1).jpg

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Rez Zircon

Posts: 335

Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV

posted 7 years ago

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Thekla McDaniels wrote:The seeds that came from Kashmir have now spent 2 or 3 winters in the ground, only the first winter were they heavily mulched. Now at the end of their growing season, they are small shrubs 2-3 feet high. They are healthy. There was no sign of developing blossom on any of them this year. I have about half the number I planted out.

They look really good, very healthy and happy. Apparently the location agrees with them very well. They might not be old enough to bloom yet, but hopefully that's coming -- and eventually seeds to share!

yet another victim of Obsessive Weeding Disorder

Thekla McDaniels

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posted 7 years ago

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The seeds that I got from New Mexico spent their first winter in the ground, and again about half came back in the spring. They are not as big as the Kashmiri plants. One set of them are 12 - 16 inches with few stems. They are in a stone sun scoop facing south. Vetiver, rosemary and fig trees also overwintered there, all returned from the roots. I plan to mulch them all in hopes of getting bigger plants next season.

The third location is the south side of an evergreen windbreak, just about the drip line. They are a few inches high. It is the location with the poorest soil.

All are healthy.

The first two photos are the small ones by the wind break in poor soil. They are from Fred's grandmother's village in New Mexico.

The last photo is the best plant from the south facing low stone retaining wall

smpm2.jpg

sm-pm.jpg

best.jpg

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Rebecca Norman

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Posts: 2501

Location: Ladakh, Indian Himalayas at 10,500 feet, zone 5

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Thank you for showing those pictures of the pomegranate trees from the Kashmiri seeds I sent you!

Works at a residential alternative high school in the Himalayas SECMOL.org . "Back home" is Cape Cod, E Coast USA.

Thekla McDaniels

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Hi Rebecca,

They do continue to grow and get stronger.

I think of you every time I visit them, and thank you for your help in this project. I will always feel a certain goodness in spirit for the knowledge that an unknown someone as far away as you are offered a helping hand. I like to think you and I are not the only ones in a situation such as this one.

A friend of mine does a hosts project she calls the peace library (http://www.thepeacelibrary.org/). She has anothre call out for entries for a show in December of 2016. She has been doing it for years. She always invites me to contribute. I have never yet known what I could base a project on, but perhaps this gift of yours, to me is the perfect subject, for it is from actions like yours that peace, if it ever comes, will arise from.

heartfelt thanks to you

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joseph fournier

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posted 7 years ago

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Hello Folks!!
Well I live in the Deserts of Utah, my lovely home. I am wanting to create a drought tolerant/cold tolerant food forest. I love permaculture plants are amazing. haha anyways I am looking to obtain for cold tolerant Pomegranate seeds from someone who maybe growing pomegrantes in a similar climate as mine. Obvioulsly my thinking is they will be my best choice for survival. I have been searching online for simply seeds but I'm finding people wanting to sell 1 gallon potted trees for $30+dollars which doesn't include tax. Would anybody be willing to trade or sell me some of their seeds please?!?!?
Joseph F.

Thekla McDaniels

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Hi Joseph, welcome to Permies. In this world wide community, you are my neighbor! Where in Utah's desert do you live? You can PM me if you don't want to post it outright.

thekla

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joseph fournier

Posts: 7

posted 7 years ago

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Moab Utah, grew up there and love it, there is not enough people growing food here, and no body I know of has a virtually self sustainable food forest. I would love to be one of the firsts. Thanks for responding to my post, I have a dream of owning my own farm one day and love to learn about new and better things and plants.

Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Thekla, about how long do you find it takes the local pomegranates to ripen after blossoming? I've long been searching for pomegranates that can both survive down to about 0 Fahrenheit and ripen with 1600 growing degree days in the open. It's a challenge.

EDIT: oh wow, we've already had this conversation once.

Thekla McDaniels

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Kyrt Ryder wrote:

EDIT: oh wow, we've already had this conversation once.

Does that mean I don't need to wax verbose on the topics? Or are you recalling I don't have definitive answers, and will just go on and on about what I have noticed.

Also, here in Colorado, there are as yet no local pomegranates.

I have realized I have a superlative place for pomegranates, and plan next season to put pomegranates, rosemary, lemon verbena and vetiver there.

Let me know if you have further questions.

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Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Heh, that's what I get for replying quickly on the phone. I'd intended to address that question to Rebecca who provided your seeds rather than you.

Time to pull my foot out of my mouth

Thekla McDaniels

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Well, never mind that, Kyrt. Rebecca did get me some seeds from Kashmir, but I think she had to travel to get them, and I wonder if they know things like numbers of hours, and such. They are more likely to grow their land race poms, which is why I was interested in them, and so glad she could gt some for me.

I also got seeds from Fred, who got them from his grand mother's village, Tularosa New Mexico. This thread is so long I don't want to go back through it, but if you have better forum search skills you could probably find him. I think he has also posted photographs of plants at Wheaton Labs.

Where are you located?

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Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Western Washington zone 7. Cool summer climate, temperatures [Farenheit] of 90's are [usually, the past two years were a bit of an exception] uncommon [not even happening every year, though most years have a few days that go over 90] and 100 almost doesn't happen.

Frost Free growing season in the vicinity of 180 days.

Thekla McDaniels

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In Western Washington? Do you know of Raintree Nursery? A great company selling all kinds of mainstream and oddball food plants that grow in the region, here isa link to their pomegranates, just in case you don't already know of them. They are excellent (and they did not pay me to say that!)

http://www.raintreenursery.com/Fruit_Trees/Pomegranates/

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Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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I am quite familiar with Raintree, they're actually not far from my grandparents' home.

But they have zero confidence in any of their pomegranates ripening in this climate zone.

As you say, they're an exceptional nursery selling genetic material across the country, pomegranate plants grow very well here, but it takes an exceptionally early cultivar to ripen in an average year.

Thekla McDaniels

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Then have you thought about how to increase the warmth for them to make it to their requirements? A sheltered alcove against a south facing wall?.. or some other location you could micro climate you could enhance?

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Kyrt Ryder

Posts: 947

Location: Graham, Washington [Zone 7b, 47.041 Latitude] 41inches average annual rainfall, cool summer drought

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Yeah, Microclimate hacking isn't a bad idea, starting with the earlier varieties and breeding towards something that genuinely works.

In particular, a dark stone mulch may be quite an asset. Perhaps in conjunction with a sunscoop berm.

Rebecca Norman

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Location: Ladakh, Indian Himalayas at 10,500 feet, zone 5

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Kyrt Ryder wrote:I'd intended to address that question to Rebecca who provided your seeds rather than you.

Time to pull my foot out of my mouth

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Well, never mind that, Kyrt. Rebecca did get me some seeds from Kashmir, but I think she had to travel to get them, and I wonder if they know things like numbers of hours, and such. They are more likely to grow their land race poms, which is why I was interested in them, and so glad she could gt some for me.

Correct. I know nothing. I bought some delicious local pomegranates when I was on a road trip to Kashmir, and sucked the seeds and sent them to Thekla. Kashmir is not as far north as most of your locations in the USA, but has a fairly cold winter, eg a friend of mine remembers riding his bicycle over the frozen lake in winter. But I have no idea exactly how cold for how long, and I don't even know which part of Kashmir the fruit was grown in. Thekla said she was interested in experimenting with them and other cold-climate pomegranates to just see how they go. It's still early yet.

Works at a residential alternative high school in the Himalayas SECMOL.org . "Back home" is Cape Cod, E Coast USA.

Ken W Wilson

pollinator

Posts: 1190

Location: Nevada, Mo 64772

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posted 6 years ago

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How about some updates? Any progress?

Thekla McDaniels

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for your interest,

I sold my place, have not found a new one. I still have some seeds from Kashmir and from New Mexico, and I brought with me the Kashmiri pomegranate which had top growth that survived last winter, the last winter in that location. It is in a 15 gallon pot on the south side of the cottage I rented for the winter. It has survived this winter-- I think. The tips of the twigs are not stiff and dry, they bend rather than break... I think that is partly because this year winter "never" came. It was balmy, as warm as the "Mediterranean" climate where I grew up.

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Thekla McDaniels

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It is late spring, and the pomegranates I have from the Kashmiri seeds Becky procured for me have survived another winter.

It was a mild winter, but they were in a 15 gallon pot, so that could have made them more vulnerable to freezing. We did have a few very clod nights.

Anyway, there are two plants that are leafing out from stems that are now two years old, have lived through two winters outdoors, here in Colorado. I think that is pretty exciting. One leafed out some time ago, and while I was taking photos this morning for this post,I noticed that a second stem had live buds that are leafing out.

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Thekla McDaniels

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phot to go with my post. The website did not want to include the photos, so I am adding them in their own posts to see if that will work

IMG_6973.jpg

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Thekla McDaniels

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number 2

IMG_6971.jpg

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Thekla McDaniels

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these were the three best photos, and I could not get my photo software to allow editing,so here they are.

IMG_6968.jpg

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Peter VanDerWal

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Posts: 596

Location: Southern Arizona. Zone 8b

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posted 6 years ago

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I have pomegranates growing in my garden and I get snow most years. I've seen large pomegranate trees in Bisbee Arizona which gets even colder.

My bushes were started from seeds from pomegranates that came from the grocery store.

I'm pretty sure most pomergranates will handle temps down to 10 deg F. We have had temps down to 8 deg F a few years back and the large trees survived that, that was before I planted mine so I can't say whether young trees can survive that low, but they can definitely survive down to around 18 F.

My opinions are barely worth the paper they are written on here, but hopefully they can spark some new ideas, or at least a different train of thought

Thekla McDaniels

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there may be new growth on old stems even higher up.

I did leave about 35 plants when I moved from my old place, brought along the clump in the photo only, because it had shown the most promise. As for the ones left behind, it's STUN for sure, and in a couple of years, I might go see what they've done, also left some vetiver and figs there, outdoors in a south facing rock. wall.

But I am very excited about these pomegranates. Hoping to have a new home for them soon, at about 6200 feet elevation.

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