cold tolerant pomegranates

Hello Dale... the original link did not work, not sure why, but they do list this single variety under "fruiting trees" and then "pomegranates". They reference that the bush-type hardy varieties they are offering (?) are grown from cuttings and true to name. I've called them once, they seemed helpful and apparently the owner works onsite and is the head horticulturalist, so I plan to call them again before ordering to find out more details.

I'm hoping to try pomegranates in a spot that we are developing as a micro-climate above our natural pool. It faces south, has a huge berm of white pine to the north, is terraced above a boulder wall, and also has sandy soil mixed with gravel, small stones, and forest matter. We are new new new to permaculture but are brimming with hope at the possibilities we see for our small, budding farm. I've never posted on a forum before, and am so grateful for this site and the kind and helpful nature of the people on it.

I'm interested to know what you mean when you say that pomegranates have an "instant orchard" effect, Dale. Could you elaborate?

Good luck with your seeds, Thekla!

Burnt Ridge Nursery is a totally class operation. I have ordered many trees from them over the years, and they are probably my number one choice if they sell what I am looking for. You can buy with total confidence.

Dale, I'm skeptical they would develop fruit anywhere in the Pac NW region. My experience is that they need a ton of heat to initiate flowering, and then sustained heat for a long season to not drop their fruit. Just being in a relatively cool spot in my greenhouse, where it is over 100 degrees for months on end, my pomegranite does not hold the fruit that it initially sets. But hey, go for it. I'm wrong about lots of stuff. They places I do know that successfully grow pomegranites, like California and India, are in the hottest, driest districts. Basically the land of camels and not nice human living.

Thanks for the feedback on Burnt Ridge, Adam. I got a good feeling about them after my initial contact and their offerings seem plentiful and well-suited to permaculture farming. I was wondering about fruit set and if that would be an issue. Also concerned about this with citrus as I would like to try some lemon trees up there as well but being that they take so long to ripen how do you protect the fledgling fruit overwinter?

I just got back from a specialty nursery called Fruit Trees and More. link--- http://www.fruittreesandmore.com/ It's a small 3/4 acre operation that deals in cold adapted citrus, persimmons, olives, figs and pomegranates... There were some baseball sized fruit on one plant. Some years the plants drop all fruit and lack of heat is one suspect. The nursery is on the Saanich peninsula, which has warmer winters than I do. I'm on higher ground about 8 miles from the ocean. I have a much more continental climate than those on the coast. The owner told me that summer heat is often more important than winter cold for fruiting. Being near the ocean, he seldom sees temperatures over 80F. I get a nice long season with much higher temperatures than his, but my winter temperatures can go to 15 F which is near the lethal limit. So, winter kill might be a greater risk for me but if I can deal with that, using the right varieties, my chances of getting a crop without a greenhouse are greater.

They haven't tried the Russian varieties, probably because citrus and other more traditional crops make up the bulk of the business. The pomegranates are mostly grown for ornamental, novelty value. Their lemons were large and prolific. Lemons were not for sale, but jam and jelly made from them was. My friend, who came along for the ride, bought some jelly and 2 persimmons. The olives are produced for the table and were very numerous but small. They don't press oil. Much attention is paid to micro climate with all of these fruits growing against south facing walls. Early blossom and frosting are not a problem. The greater risk is that temperatures don't get high enough for them to set fruit. The most prolific item were the kiwi vines, but they are pretty common here, so not really a surprise.

Although it is certainly possible for me to grow lemons on very hardy little trees, they must stay on the tree into winter and the fruit freezes at -3C or about 26F. My fruit would freeze every year. Sepp Holzer grows lemons in hot micro climates. His winters are colder than mine, so he must be harvesting frozen fruit.

I'm going to order some Russian varieties and try my luck.

Dee Dee Lozano asked about the instant orchard --- I referred to pomegranates as an instant orchard because they often produce in year one and by the third year, production takes off. Most fruit takes a lot longer to give a significant yield. If I find that mine winter kill, I'll grow a few in a greenhouse and turn the hillside over to grapes which always work here.

Rebecca, I've just received notice that your seeds are on their way to me. Thekla


Dale, that looks like an interesting nursery. I am always looking for good sources. Thanks for posting. Thekla

Dale, you say 15 F is near lethal? We have had several days on end over the last few years of winter temperatures in the teens with nighttime temperatures near 0. I wonder what effect if any our micro-climate haven will have in the depths of winter to combat that kind of weather. My husband's grandfather grew a fig tree outside successfully here many years ago. He bent it over and mulched the entire tree heavily over the winter. I imagine you couldn't do that to a tree with fruit on it, perhaps because it would rot?

Thanks for the clarification on the "instant orchard".

Dee

Whoa! I wondered about the instant orchard myself, didn't see clarification on this thread. Where is it?

But about mulching the whole tree, Dee Dee, you wouldn't have fruit on it when came time to mulch for winter, so no need to worry about rotting fruit. While visiting my cousin on ?Aquidneck? Island, a few years back, I met woman who used to work as a gardener in Newport, RI. she said they used to dig up whole orange trees in the fall, bring them into the greenhouse, then plant them out again in the spring. Being from orange country, I imagined mature standard size trees when I heard that, but probably they were not that big. You could try that with a pomegranate, if you bonsai-ed it some, paying attention to where on the tree it blossomed and set fruit, but what you are talking about is the reason I am on a quest for very cold hardy pomegranates.

In a few years I may have the one that could live in your climate without elaborate labor intensive cold protection....

Thekla

In Toronto, there are many immigrants who grow figs. They lay them down in the fall and mulch. I won't get into that sort of labor intensive BS. Figs do fine in Victoria without special winter treatment. Hot summers produce a better yield. I don't know that anyone has laid pomegranates over for the winter. The big problem seems to be lack of summer heat.

My south facing slope is the perfect spot to create a micro climate that is much hotter than the surrounding area. This area currently grows scotch broom and tomatoes did extremely well there. I have lots of rock that can hold and reflect heat. Some sort of covering in winter would allow the heat of the soil to keep temperatures well above the lethal limit. I expect that mould and rodent problems could be an issue during wet winters.

I want to sculpt those slopes and use them for something. If I find that pomegranates do well, then some of the area will serve them. If they fail, the area will be perfect for grapes , egg plants, kiwi and heat loving herbs. There are wineries nearby and slopes like mine are preferred. Any work done in micro climate creation will not be wasted. When I look at the bountiful and reliable quantities of grapes that are possible, I suspect that pomegranate production will always be for personal use and not a major farm product for me. All hot areas will be planted with a variety of plants. If some die out, the others fill the niche. If several crops thrive, some will be transplanted to other areas.

Rebecca,
Your pawpaw seeds are in my refrigerator, awaiting further instructions. They will be moist at all times! They need cold stratification for 100 - 120 days, so they are set til about mid January. I am going to post on the pawpaw thread, because maybe people there will have a better idea what happens after the 120 days, or if they can stay in the frige longer!
Thekla

Thekla, this was Dale's reply about the "instant orchard" effect -

Dee Dee Lozano asked about the instant orchard --- I referred to pomegranates as an instant orchard because they often produce in year one and by the third year, production takes off. Most fruit takes a lot longer to give a significant yield. If I find that mine winter kill, I'll grow a few in a greenhouse and turn the hillside over to grapes which always work here.

Also, I guess I've only been looking for hardy pomegranates which claim to be hardy to -10 F (eager to hear of your progress on a new variety, Thekla). When I was asking about the fruit I didn't clarify that I was thinking about lemons also, which Dale had mentioned Sepp Holzer grows in his gardens but because of the long-ripening period he speculated Sepp is harvesting frozen fruit. My question is how do you protect immature fruit in the winter in the case that you were able to grow lemons in a 6b zone? Or do you just not, and harvest the fruit that ripens in s/s/fall? If immature fruit freezes over the winter will it recover and ripen in the coming spring?

Crazy to imagine digging up trees every year, certainly not something I would be doing, but if you have the dough/equipment/wherewithal why not? Sepp appears to be growing said lemons on a sloping terrace, with plenty of boulder around which I suspect is key. He must be zone 5, I would guess.

Hi Dee Dee,
Thanks for the instant orchard info. I wonder if that is first year from bare root stock, or 1st year from seed. Probably bare root. Maybe it would be worth it to have a mother plant in a container. Take cuttings and root them, overwinter those, heeled in, set out in the spring. You would never get the heavy crop, but you would get fruit. In the years with a mild winter, all the prior year's trees would be there for their second year. Wow, that might be fun. That's good to know.

I sort of do that with lemon verbena, rose geranium, lemongrass, vetivert. Every spring plant them out, in the fall, dig some up (vetivert and lemongrass) get a bunch of cuttings to root, which will be the start crop for next season. The same woman who used to work as a gardener in Newport taught me that.

I think it is highly unlikely that Sepp is harvesting frozen lemons. Pretty sure he created a warm spots. That would give an earlier start and a later finish, (equals longer growing season) and a milder "winter". Time to ripen the lemons and get them picked, and a minimum temp that does not kill the tree.. I grew up in California, in citrus country, knew lemon growers from the Sierra foothills. When their lemons froze, they lost the fruit on the tree, AND next year's crop (in the bud). Depending on the variety, citrus does take some sub freezing temperatures, but I don't know the temp at which fruit and bud are lost. I bet there is a thread on citrus.

As for the pomegranates, some of the seeds have been in warm moist soil for almost two weeks. I expect to see sprouts in the next 10 days-2 weeks. May end up with pomegranate seeds from Russia as well.

In the years since my last try on bare root pomegranates, I have been looking around my place for warmer places with better soil, and would lend themselves to warmth trapping and cold draining away.

I really love the puzzle aspect of it.

I will post when I have success to report on the seed project.

Thekla

Hi All, (especially Dee Dee),

I just found a zone 6 pomegranate for sale from a nursery in Georgia:

https://www.willisorchards.com/product/utah-sweet-pomegranate-tree

while looking at a zone 6 passionflower: Passiflora caerulea 'Constance Eliott' all white, a good butterfly host plant-- bland but edible fruit.

The one I grow is Passiflora incarnata, zone 5, good fruit, but this is a species plant, and fruit quality varies from one to the next. I don't know if there is a passionflower thread, but thought I would mention it here because we've been talking about fruit not normally associated with cold climate.

Thekla

This guy is growing pomegranates near Montreal Quebec. They get temperatures down to -35 F. He's also growing persimons and many other unique fruits and nuts.

https://permies.com/t/30506/forest-garden/Cold-climate-food-forest-Quebec#237147 Watch the video. Half of Canada's population live somewhere warmer than where this guy is having great success. Much of what he grows are cultivars in development. His son is involved and will continue with this work.

wow dale, can't wait to have a look. i've got germination and seedlings, and am wondering how many places and what kind of support and adaptations to make for them so they'll make it through next winter. we are very cold here in western colorado for us. i'm glad they aren't out there in this.

i've tried a little super mulching experiment this year, mulching lemon verbena, tenderer than pomegranates, an 8 foot diameter 4 feet tall mound of leaves, if that gets the lemon verbena and rose geraniums through THIS, then i'll definitely do it for the poms next year.

thanks sos much for posting!

T

Hey Thekla, did those pomegranate seeds I sent you grow? Please post a little picture!
Thanks,
Becky

One thing that most people don't know is the first wines were probably made in Turkey with pomegranates not grapes.

Rebecca Norman wrote:Hey Thekla, did those pomegranate seeds I sent you grow? Please post a little picture!
Thanks,
Becky

I want to know too!!!

Salvatski is one of the most well-known cold hardy pomegranates.

I tried to grow it and it died. I also tried to grow many other similar cold hardy ones and they also died. Our climate here in PNW is too wet in the winter. WE're not too cold, but we're too wet for this cold. Pomegranates like it dry. They get diseases.

I have grown several seedlings from a WOnderful pomegranate from the store. One is still growing in my yard after 7 years, but it dies down to the ground most years.

There are people here in PNW who grow fruit from pomegranates, but they are really focussed on pomegranate.

One dude I know grows one that fruits and he doesn't have to try that hard. The variety is called "Sweet". I think I want to get one and plant the seeds when I grow it.
John S
PDX OR

I am still committed to trying pomegranates. I may put them in big pots that are moved with a front end loader. They could spend the winter inside the greenhouse. They'd still get cold, but could also be kept quite dry. This would limit them to 7 feet tall and to level ground. I'd prefer to grow them on steep slopes.

Rebecca Norman wrote:Hey Thekla, did those pomegranate seeds I sent you grow? Please post a little picture!
Thanks,
Becky

Hi Becky,

I got some pretty healthy looking plants, grew them in pots on the porch all summer where I would remember to water them. I planted about 15 plants, some as much as a foot tall. They are in some soil along an irrigation furrow, and have been mulched, and I intend to add more next week. I am away from home, traveled to my sister's for Thanksgiving and my birthday.

I thought I did send you some pictures, but now I can't find any on my computer, so maybe I did not. I can likely still get a shot next week when I am home.

How bout the paw paw seeds? Any luck with those?

Thekla

I think you sent me pictures of the new seedlings, which were very exciting, but I'm curious how far along they got this year.

The seeds were from commercial pomegranates growing in Kashmir, which I don't think is a very dry winter, but actually I don't know for sure. They also grow in Srinagar city, which is surrounded by lakes that freeze, but I don't think the extreme low temperature there is very very low. Like, they can walk on the lakes sometimes, but don't ice skate there, though maybe that's due to snow rather than thin ice. (I haven't been there in midwinter and there's no Indian Zone map so I don't know exactly)

I ran across this topic and am just very curious to know.....how did the experiment go?

Hi Becky and others,

I did try to post pictures but I still have the same problem: I have to have the pictures on line somewhere else, it's not like a blog where I can just put the pictures up, direct from my computer. I tried to go to my blog and put the pictures there, but I could not log on to my blog. The fix for that involves a long and frustrating process, so I have not done it.

When I do get the pictures posted there will be little brown twigs against a background of brown leaves, so it is not very exciting, at all.

I learned that STUN is better called STRATEGIC total utter neglect as opposed to SHEER total utter neglect, (I think this is from New Forest Farm's Mark Shephard's wife, but apologize if I've got that wrong). The important part being that when getting things are getting started, you don't neglect them all the time. When selecting for a new strain of something, the first thing you need are organisms that live, then you can go for the next most important trait.

So the little poms waited until they had lost their leaves, the ground was cold but not frozen, THEN I put about a foot of dead moist leaves over their row, making a berm of leaves about 2 feet wide and one foot tall. I've also got vetivert grass and lemon verbena and rose geraniums under that berm they don't live through winter here without mulch, but I've brought them through previous winters with this method.

I've just been told that I can put the photos on drop box then post the link to see the photos, so maybe you will all get to see the brown on brown photos soon.

I could maybe learn how by next spring, so that when they sprout their little green leaves, I can show you the winter survivors. Now THAT will be exciting!

Thekla

Thank you for the description! You're right, without any leaves they won't look like much. I hope you figure out the photo posting in spring when they leaf out!

(I don't have any trouble posting up to 3 photos per post directly. I shrink them to about 400 x 600 pixels first and then they go right up, even with my poor connection)

Hi Becky,

I'll see if I can make that work for me! Yesterday I put black plastic lumber wrapper on the ground east of the insulating berm of mulch, thinking it would add warmth to what is beneath is, allowing the ground beneath the berm to retain more of its heat, and now everything is covered in snow, and the snow is still coming down. Very glad for the snow!
thekla

Subbing. Very interesting topic. I have 2 Russian Poms in pots waiting for spring.

Hi Daniella,

I just posted after you on the round swale thread and here you are on the cold pomegranates too! I see you are in Wyoming and have some Russian pomegranates. That's my fall back plan. I'll be interested in your results.

What is "subbing?"

What part of Wyoming? I may be traveling to Wyoming to pick up some goats in early spring. I always like to see other people's efforts when I travel, if it fits with the primary objectives of the trip.

Thekla

Love this thread although im in zone 4b so itd be pushing the envelope, but would be worth it as pomegrantes are so good for your heart, also liked the info on Apricots, anyone had success on growing ones like in the Hunza area, I like the ones with very bitter hearts as they are full of vitamin B17 aka laeitrile(sp) seen in the documentary "World Without Cancer". Now if only there was a cold tolerant Moringa leaf tree, my superfood guild would be complete

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Hi Daniella,

I just posted after you on the round swale thread and here you are on the cold pomegranates too! I see you are in Wyoming and have some Russian pomegranates. That's my fall back plan. I'll be interested in your results.

What is "subbing?"

What part of Wyoming? I may be traveling to Wyoming to pick up some goats in early spring. I always like to see other people's efforts when I travel, if it fits with the primary objectives of the trip.

Thekla

Subbing = subscribing to a thread by posting on it so you get notice when someone else posts on it.

I'm in Laramie County, way down in the south corner near Cheyenne. You are welcome to stop by but I don't have a ton of stuff to see yet. Just a few swales and such. Course depending on time in spring I may have 100 trees to plant out because when I get bored I go buy a tree. Boy do I need to stop doing that.

Anyway, I'll let you know how the poms go. They are only 2' tall right now and potted indoors since I just got them last week. I'll plant them out this spring and wait and see!

Danielle Venegas wrote:Subbing. Very interesting topic. I have 2 Russian Poms in pots waiting for spring.

Would you mind sharing the variety and where you found these? I'm trying to grow more unique trees/shrubs and I would love to add pomegranates to my 5b area. I've looked all over online though and no one seems the cold hardiest ones. I know 5b might be pushing it some people's opinion, but I think if I put them in a good microclimate and/or acclimated them and/or wrapped them I might have a chance. From one fellow zone 5 to another....

Bethany Kennedy wrote:

Danielle Venegas wrote:Subbing. Very interesting topic. I have 2 Russian Poms in pots waiting for spring.

Would you mind sharing the variety and where you found these? I'm trying to grow more unique trees/shrubs and I would love to add pomegranates to my 5b area. I've looked all over online though and no one seems the cold hardiest ones. I know 5b might be pushing it some people's opinion, but I think if I put them in a good microclimate and/or acclimated them and/or wrapped them I might have a chance. From one fellow zone 5 to another....

I bought mine off Ebay. The seller made some rather extraordinary claims about them surviving to Zone 4, but I think my Zone is pushing it based on other research. I think I'll have to winter them over. I'm debating on potting them permanently and just moving them to the green house in the winter. I think it will depend on what kind of protection I can get it. The wind is what will kill them here I think. But I've been using cement rip rap as a thermal mass at the base of more sensitive trees. So, we'll see how it goes.

Daniella, (I think), I saw a very interesting idea on a different thread. Talus and garland..... sounds like the concrete chunks you were talking about. There is also something about "air wells". There is a thread here on permies and you could likely also find it with google or your favorite search engine.

Thekla

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Daniella, (I think), I saw a very interesting idea on a different thread. Talus and garland..... sounds like the concrete chunks you were talking about. There is also something about "air wells". There is a thread here on permies and you could likely also find it with google or your favorite search engine.

Thekla

I got 2 so perhaps I'll plant both differently and see which one lives.

Did you see that tree about the fig where she used pipe cover to insulate them? I thought that was hysterical. I'm totally going to buy $1 store pool noodles for that purpose now!!!

I did put the photos on my blog, and I still can't load them here, but if you go to Canyon Wren Farm dot org, you can see the seedlings in April of 2014, when they were outside getting hardened off, and the dry twigs as they go under the mulch for winter.

Thekla

Thekla McDaniels wrote:I did put the photos on my blog, and I still can't load them here, but if you go to Canyon Wren Farm dot org, you can see the seedlings in April of 2014, when they were outside getting hardened off, and the dry twigs as they go under the mulch for winter.

Thekla

Loved your website!!!

Thekla,

I went and pulled the pictures from your blog to put here for all to see. They are looking rather nice, hopefully they will show back up in the spring.

Hardening off


The "mulchy" spot where they are for winter


Semi-mulched for winter pomegranate


Some color contrast


To do all of this, I right clicked each picture, copied the image URL, clicked on the "Img" tag at the top of a "reply to this post" window, pasted the URL in and hit enter.

a thousand thanks, Bill, that's very nice of you.

I'll try doing that myself on another picture, another thread. It's been years I have not known how to do it.

Thekla

Thekla McDaniels wrote:a thousand thanks, Bill, that's very nice of you.

I'll try doing that myself on another picture, another thread. It's been years I have not known how to do it.

Thekla

It is my pleasure. I look forward to your picture posting.

Thank you Bill, for pasting those pictures!

(Thekla, to post photos I don't try to link them. I click the attachments tab below the text box in my reply. Does that not show up on your computer? -- But Bill, that only allows me to post 3 pix. How did you post more?)