New Member with a Project

Hello All,
I have been receiving Permies messages on my phone, but I now have a computer so it will be easier for me to participate/ share my failures.
So I want to build a small cabin to warm my bones and alternately escape the mosquitos.

I have land with sand under 6" of forest decay, some large white and red pine, white oaks, red maples, and aspen trees. I have two small chainsaws, an old quad, a 4x4 suv, come-alongs,etc. , Four storm door windows, and some pole barn siding I've thought of using for roofing material.
Best of all my wife and I are staying in my mom's house on this multi-acre wooded property and I can walk , or drive, to work at the site. I haven't tried yet, but I think I can run an electric cord and a water hose when it warms up.

Pretty good deal, yes?

Down sides: My wife has given me a budget of $0.00 for this. I have no help, and I am not a young man. And I have never built anything.

Welcome to Permies, Tom! This sounds like an interesting project. Are you thinking of a log cabin? That would probably be most practical given the budget and the tools and materials available. Do you have any stone at all on the land? You need to keep the framing off the ground if you don't want it to rot in a few years. I would use the white oak as at least the bottom course of logs, as that is going to be the most rot-resistant local option. Pine will be more insulative as it is lighter, for most of the walls.

What do you want to include in the building? Any plumbing, or just a daytime getaway? For one person with some power equipment, I would start small, maybe 12' x 16', as logs of that size can be handled with an A-frame and ropes and pulleys. More information on your desires would help us advise.

My wife says "Sand castle?"

Thanks Glen. I like your wife already. I decided to post about it on Permies because I don’t want it to become a “dream castle” that I don’t follow through with.
So, Glen and wife, you have become my unofficial “tutt-tutters”. As in “tuft-tutt tommy, maybe try this way instead so we can see a little progress.”
I will elaborate more next post I need to go now.

Ohhh! Windows!



And for your mosquitos...

Hey thanks for the window videos Joylynn. Just about what I was thinking except with details!
Glenn to answer some questions: I was thinking of a timber frame with a shed roof, not too big so I can handle the material.
I cut a red maple about 12" diameter and it was really heavy, even cut down to 8' long. So I will need pointers on how to lift logs with mechanical advantages. I was thinking timberframe because once I get the two bents up with beams across it wouldnt be too bad too finish closing in. I am open to suggestions.
A foundation frustrates me. I am too old too dig this stuff by hand. I am leaning towards the skid shed style (there is soooo much information on this sight). Thank you for confirmation that the white oak should be closest to the ground because of best insect resistance. I have two or three nearby that I want to cut anyway. I don't have any stones to place under, but I can probably scrounge some cement  blocks. If I can get a couple 15 footers in place to connect with boards I may have a start.

* I have little idea how to fasten anything securely to this base though.*

12x16 would be great, but I am thinking maybe narrower, like 8x 12-15.

After I made my first post I looked at my best site after taking down a few small pines. It is too sweet to mess up with my first try! I want to save it for a real cabin (like where somebody excavates and a cement floor well done, maybe dig a septic tank then). Meanwhile, if I build a skiddable  hut to keep me warm (rmh, wood stove?) and skeeters out, maybe an overnight or few, that would be fine. No plumbing needed for this one. I will just build this off to the side a little and skid it later if I want to convert it to a mudroom or willow feeder.

I will start taking pictures to make this more interesting.

Off to explore more permies stuff.

For an 8 x 16-ish timber frame, 12" diameter is way overkill for posts. 6" diameter maple would be strong enough, but I would go to 8" to have enough beef for mortises to minimize splitting issues (maple splits very easily). I would be comfortable with 6" oak posts. If set on a pair of white oak sills on the long sides, the frame should be skiddable.

I would suggest splitting the 12" maple log since you have it on hand; if it splits straight, you have two or maybe four of your posts right there. A small cabin frame can be built light enough to be sturdy without being massive, and you can learn mortise & tenon construction with less total effort. Build a second cabin on a foundation with more massive timbers.

With a zero budget, what are you thinking of for wall infill? I was thinking log cabin for providing the complete enclosure without purchased materials. It doesn't sound like you have clay for wattle-and-daub infill panels.

I would suggest splitting the 12" maple log since you have it on hand; if it splits straight, you have two or maybe four of your posts right there. A small cabin frame can be built light enough to be sturdy without being massive, and you can learn mortise & tenon construction with less total effort. Build a second cabin on a foundation with more massive timbers.

how do I split a whole log? I've split chunks for firewood before.

"With a zero budget, what are you thinking of for wall infill? I was thinking log cabin for providing the complete enclosure without purchased materials. It doesn't sound like you have clay for wattle-and-daub infill panels.

That's a good question. It may be better just to stack whole logs. At least once a log is set, that's it. Exterior sheathing, insulation, and interior wall all in one piece.  Maybe I should re-think the timber frame idea although would I like learning the technique.
I could probably get a little cash for fiberglass insulation. But then I will need to create more boards for interior sheathing. I watched a guy on Youtube  free chainsawing logs into boards without a mill. I was going to use that for board and batten on the outside and sheathing in.  I tried it a litttle. It would work but it's a lot of work. Versus trying to lift whole logs into place...
I will do a search for A frames.

A set of wedges will work for splitting a long log. I like to start at the small end - the split seems to tend to stay in the center better than starting at the large end. Drive a wedge or two into the end, then add a wedge in the split along the side. As you work, previous wedges will fall loose so you can leapfrog with them. I usually can make two wedges work for smaller logs, though three might be better for a large one.

Tom, what a great project. You cant go over budget with none.
BUT please remember we are never too old to do anything.
Sometimes the mind does not match reality, thats all.

I still race sidecars at 72 because I chose to.
Anyway you can lift logs with a tripod structure and a pulley system. Maybe meet up with some other blokes in the area who enjoy helping.
What tools do you actually have, we could help design something knowing what tools are available.
Is there any clay around? Wattle and Daub in mind.

As for construction technique consider using strap iron, galvanised steel strips about 1 inch wide that can loop up a post and over the log on top and back down the post to hold it in place.
A roof can be made from metal shingles made from almost anything.

Trying to post a pic. Sigh.
Mr. Daley, are you the pilot or the monkey? I really do appreciate the encouragement. I am left wondering, and this is meant as a joke, why one would take advice from someone who is “out there” enough to race side hacks? That is capital K krazy stuff. I ride, and I’ve been on a flat track and the ice(just a taste of each), but no sidehacks.
Straps, good idea. Splitting a log with wedges , good.
Tools: come-alongs, chain hoist, 2 small chainsaws, a saws all, 4x4 truck and quad, other basic stuff

Wow I feel great! I made some good progress today. And it worked some muscles. There was an old ice shanty turned deer blind on the downhill of my prime spot. It was made of mostly OSB. I salvaged 3 plexiglass "windows", the rest is in a to burn pile.
Left behind is the platform it was on. 8'x8' square  2"x6" rim with two plywood sheets on top. It is supported by 6 4"x4" posts that stick up from the ground about 2'. They are in cement, not sure how deep. Everything is treated.

So I have this treated wood platform with legs and steps, will I get kicked off the forum for using this toxic stuff, or is it ok to recycle it? I am thinking of sawing off the legs at the ground, flipping it over onto a sled and pulling it to a different spot to use as my base. Or not? I think if I could mount some posts with a roof to it I would be so excited. Have oak and maple and poplar I need to cut. Can select some white pine if I need something lighter.

Of the maple and oak, do I need to peel the bark? Are we talking about using a draw knife or are there better ways?

Tom Bergman wrote:Wow I feel great! I made some good progress today. And it worked some muscles. There was an old ice shanty turned deer blind on the downhill of my prime spot. It was made of mostly OSB. I salvaged 3 plexiglass "windows", the rest is in a to burn pile.
Left behind is the platform it was on. 8'x8' square  2"x6" rim with two plywood sheets on top. It is supported by 6 4"x4" posts that stick up from the ground about 2'. They are in cement, not sure how deep. Everything is treated.
So I have this treated wood platform with legs and steps, will I get kicked off the forum for using this toxic stuff, or is it ok to recycle it? I am thinking of sawing off the legs at the ground, flipping it over onto a sled and pulling it to a different spot to use as my base. Or not? I think if I could mount some posts with a roof to it I would be so excited. Have oak and maple and poplar I need to cut. Can select some white pine if I need something lighter.
Of the maple and oak, do I need to peel the bark? Are we talking about using a draw knife or are there better ways?

No, you do not get kicked off the site for using Ply and such stuff.  You may get called out for advocating its use though.  I like using ply but I have questioned what actually goes into it since really getting involved with Permies.  You are talking about reusing so it is way better than buying something with toxic gick new.

The main thing that gets you noticed is being unkind, not nice, truthy or not allowing others to have an opinion.   While Permies is a heavily moderated site, the reality is that staff err on the side of the poster.  You have some great questions in your post.  Something like "..... will I get kicked off the forum ......." may cause a moderator to take a second look at the language.  To be honest, I have had to review the way I say things because I can be truthy, short and not leave room for other than verified scientific (in my opinion) evidence.  For me, it is amazing how much I have learned about other countries and cultures and their facts are different to mine but no less true.

In short Tom, great questions, congratulations on your great post but watch how you post.  John C. has some good stuff that may help.

Best wishes
Cheers
Paul

Welcome Tom!

Recycling is a huge part of permies; in my personal opinion that trumps toxic gick...plus I live on the Wet Coast (BC, Canada) so sadly,  I too sometimes am forced to use "treated" wood.  Sometimes it's a matter of choosing your battles.

That said, I am more of a philosophical or "soft" permie, wishing I was one who could live off grid, and grow all their own food.  We all do as much as we can, in our own ways (some here live in apartments), we all have different journeys.

I want to know what you will do with it?!?!

PS: as mentioned, this site is, thankfully,  heavily moderated.  The way I look at it is that by being here you have agreed to play in Wheaton World; where nastiness is forbidden, and negative Nellie's are asked to remember they can have opinions without becoming dictatorial...something I am still working on (thanks to the moderators who put up with me!).  

I view this site as if it were a home I am visiting, and adjust my behavior, to be respectful of the "house rules".

Hi Tom, this is a great project!  Please do keep us updated.  Also, do you have any pictures?  They would be great!

Regarding the logs and bark, though I have never tried it personally, I hear that using a draw knife to remove bark is a long, slow, laborious undertaking.  There are chainsaw attachments to do the job, but I don’t know how well or fast they work.

The best de-barking I have ever seen was by cutting and peeling the bark off, but this is when the log is freshly cut and at a specific time of year—basically late spring.  To be more specific, the logs were cedar.

I don’t know if this is an option for you or not but it might be worth a try?

Again though, this is a great thread!  If you don’t mind my asking, knowing your general location would be helpful.  I don’t need a city and certainly not something like an address, just a general region.  There are certainly some Permies from your neck of the woods who could offer some more specific advice.

I am looking forward to seeing how this project develops.

Eric

Hi, Tom

Welcome to the forum!

I would love to see pictures of your project.

I saw you mention earlier that you didn't know how to post a picture.

Here is how to post a picture and I found this in the FAQ thread:

https://permies.com/wiki/61133/Post-Image-Permies

https://permies.com/wiki/permies-faq

If you have a problem please ask in our "Tinkering Forum".

https://permies.com/f/11/tnk

Tom, you need to realise sidecar riders are true Gentlemen.
Its the best thing you can do wearing leather and being on your knees, remember that.
I am mainly a Pilot, of currently on an 1100 Honda road racer but I do speedway from time to time. And a I swing from time to time on a 1959 Harley outfit on a hillclimb.
Join up, it focuses your mind cornering at 220 kph!
Anyway, the folly, how is it going?
It seems a pity to actually move the structure you have, but if you insist, cutting the posts would be a good start, but can you turn it over to slide it?

You were talking about leaving your prime location for a future "real" cabin, so "on the downhill of your prime spot" sounds like a great place for your first cabin experiment. Is there something really undesirable about the existing foundation location?

Platform would be on the left side (red gas can on it)
Top of hill to the right behind the huge pine stump
The fire is the highest and best use I could find for the mouse poop infested osb.

Ok yes! Let’s go ahead and use the platform in place.
I thought about putting a skiddable structure on the platform so I could move it later. IDK
Anyway, it’s all treated and cemented and it’s more square than I could do.

That looks like quite a solid base, though I wonder how strong the connection of joists to posts is. Unless the current connections are heavy duty, I would consider beefing them up with brackets, lag bolts, additional upright wood lagged to the posts below the joists, or whatever fits the situation best. Unless there is no wobble at all in the deck, I would consider adding diagonal braces in both directions to at least the tallest posts for insurance to keep the new (heavier than before) building from tilting.

Also, for a timber frame of this size, I would be fine with a quartered 12" maple log for the corner posts. Smallish mortise and tenon joints will be strong enough, give you good practice, and be less work than bigger joints.

If you go with a log cabin structure, I would use all pine for the walls to keep the weight down.

Glenn, the hill is not that high and a structure on top of the platform would block a view. There are 360 degrees of view so we can spare a little.
Ah well, we will just incorporate it later if the opportunity arises to build a larger structure. Mud rooms are important here, willow feeders are needed everywhere.
Mr Daly I am laughing heartily about gentlemen and their leathers.

Another thought about that deck - if the connections to the posts are not very beefy, or are easily unscrewed/unbolted, you could lower the deck to 6" or a foot off the ground and have the structure that much less obtrusive for future building plans. An 8' x 8' deck on 2x6 joists is not that heavy and could safely be lowered with simple levers and blocking.

Glenn you have good ideas that I wouldn’t have thought of. And, you’re first concern of how well the deck is supported by the posts is quite valid.
Instead of being mounted ON the posts, the rim frame is supported by deck hangers.
I mostly daydreamed today but I came up with an idea how to build maybe.

How would you join the corner posts to this foundation?

For a combination of lowering the structure to intrude less on sightlines from a future cabin, and supporting the deck more solidly, I note that the posts are all on the counterclockwise side (viewed from above) of their corners. You could cut all the posts to a foot or so short of the bottom of the frame (6" or so minimum above ground level), rotate the frame slightly, and drop it to sit on top of the corner posts. Then reconnect the frame to the posts.

I would also suggest that there is no reason the walls of the new structure need to all be 8' tall or more; with a shed roof, the high side at 9' and the low side at 7' would give you a respectable 3:12 roof slope and average 8' clear inside. Depending on your height and your desire for spaciousness versus coziness, you might even make it a bit shorter.

Today I got 2-4 of the quartet of red maples. One is a leaner is still standing, the round end is about 15” diameter of the one on the ground.
The big one made a really satisfying WHUMP! when it landed.
There is a creek of sorts also.

The two white oaks on the left side of the picture are coming down to form the base skids for my hut.
I needed to drop the maple to cut the oaks. I plan to cut a fifteen foot section from each and skid them up to and pull them up on to the platform.

I want to say that I have not used a chainsaw much, and this maple is the biggest I have downed. I have been practicing on smaller trees, working my way  up.  My saw is a tiny 16 " Stihl. I learned by reading and watching youtube.

Most often I will put off doing new tasks. Fear of failure? There will be lots of them coming up , new tasks and failures. I found a plunge router. I think over this cold snap I will sharpen chains (new to me, I bought the Stihl tool for it to make it as easy as possible a year ago and haven't used it yet) and work on some frames for the windows (using the router which will be new to me as well).

So, I am pushing myself by building this and making myself learn new skills. I chose to document the journey here because of the great attitudes here. I will try to add a little human interest. Thank you for making me accountable.

Tom, I hear you about new things and fear of failure. It doesn't always get better with age either, as I've simply heard more "what can go wrong" stories! I'd *really* like to try hubby's new electric chainsaw. I use a lot of his power tools, but I've never been strong in the shoulders and my hands are on the small side, so "male" tools are generally built too big to feel comfortable in my hands. At least the current tree that's been in my way for a year is one the ground - that makes it a little safer - but I want it gone!!! (well, not exactly gone - the lower part might be good enough for lumber and the narrower part will be fire-wood)

Please make sure you've got good safety equipment. When Hubby bought his first chainsaw, I bought him a hardhat with integral hearing protectors and face shield. That was over 20 years ago and he's still using it, although not as reliably as I'd like!

I have a 16" Stihl, and find it ideally sized for my strength and plenty big enough to handle most trees, yet light enough to cut lots of wood in a day. If I want something bigger than 18" cut down, I can ask my best friend to come out with his 18" Stihl, which is uncomfortably heavy for me.

Tom Bergman wrote:I want to say that I have not used a chainsaw much, and this maple is the biggest I have downed. I have been practicing on smaller trees, working my way  up.  My saw is a tiny 16 " Stihl. I learned by reading and watching youtube.
Most often I will put off doing new tasks. Fear of failure? There will be lots of them coming up , new tasks and failures. I found a plunge router. I think over this cold snap I will sharpen chains (new to me, I bought the Stihl tool for it to make it as easy as possible a year ago and haven't used it yet) and work on some frames for the windows (using the router which will be new to me as well).
So, I am pushing myself by building this and making myself learn new skills. I chose to document the journey here because of the great attitudes here. I will try to add a little human interest. Thank you for making me accountable.

Tom, Thank you for the privilege of sharing your journey.  If you are thinking about things like sharpening your chainsaw chain, get something for it.  We call them Badge Bits (BBs).  Here is a link to it all: https://permies.com/wiki/skip-pep-bb
Nicole, Mike and Ashley have put a huge amount of information and advice on doing stuff from the vision Paul has with Skills to Inherit Property (SKIP).  Looking forward to your journey and thank you for the great comment about the people here on Permies.  It really is a beautiful family to be a part of.

Safety equipment is needed, yes. Don’t have any yet except glasses and hearing protection.
Tip for the day: Unless you are collecting sawdust, zip or button your pockets closed.
So I sharpened my saw(took three you tube videos) with the 2:1 Stihl tool. Nice tool, should be easy to do from now on. Check that fear off. And it only took 18 months and now I have three chains.
Here’s the MS170 stuck as I clean up the top of the maple.
I feel pretty good. Got some excercise, knocked off a procrastination.
Tomorrow the router?

Very cool what you are working on. I really appreciate you being consistent with your posting. Seems like you have some nice solid trees on your property. I don't know if this is of use to you in the coming steps but this is how my wife and I peel the logs we harvest from our property. We use a sharpened paint scraper. It works really well though it is still pretty labor intensive work. Getting a log on a higher platform would make it easier on the back. Here is a link to the video we made on our log peeling method. Hopefully it's helpful to you.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhywbS4roMM

That was pretty cool. Thank you DLJ

I talked to my oldest and best friend yesterday. He doesn't like building on an existing foundation.
So today was spent in reflection. What am I really trying to accomplish here?
Turns out it's more complicated than a place to keep warm and away from skeeters, at least in my head. It's important that I finish the project. And enjoy myself.  So far so good.
I saw a video of a reciprocal roof. An octogonal post frame, with the eight posts notched over the floor joists, which were set on those sonotube things.
I keep thinking that this construction should be round for the 360 view.
So, with eight posts joined in a circle basically, you could fill in around the framing with your choice of material. Mine for now is wood. That could be full horizontal logs, vertical logs, stacked cord style, siding, or any weirdo combo (I saw a house with cord on the bottom and vertical siding on top it looked very stout.
I saw another fellow make a crane to lift the logs, now I have an idea how to lift and place the posts.
I am not sure if we are allowed to link to outside internet places so I have refrained and only described on line videos in general terms.

Tom Bergman:

I am not sure if we are allowed to link to outside internet places so I have refrained and only described on line videos in general terms.

Absolutely, you can post videos, but we try to avoid any that are too heavy into advertising. When you make a post on a computer (I don't know about phones) there is a row of buttons above the place you type and one of them says "Youtube" - click on it and it will give you a little box to copy the URL into. If you look at my "signature" beneath this post, it has a link to a permies thread with links about all sorts of "how to use permies" information. It's a good one to bookmark! I've been around permies for a lot of years and I still go there to check how to do some things that I don't do often.

The first of the two oaks down, almost 15” diameter, and I AM NOT BRAGGING, but it dropped right where I aimed. More like, if I can learn it, you can too. Next one might not be so easy.
Funny though, I wasn’t going to do anything.
Too cold, blah, blah. Started moving some brush, next thing I know the tree is down. Guess I ran out excuses.

I feel comfortable that I can safely take medium trees AND keep my chains sharp now. Feels good.

Link to another thread I started that relates to this: https://permies.com/t/175536/Building-Crane-Heavy-Timbers#1378915
The basic ideal is to build a log crane to lift the 8 heavy vertical posts for an octagonal frame. The posts would be either 15' long if set in the ground or 10' if placed on piers.  For me, I would probably use cordwood or board and batten for siding, or some combination. There must be a lot of ways to fill the spaces. Windows! Those would be good.
It was really cold and windy today. I watched, listened, and felt the wind roll through the forest. Huge trees bending over so far they must break, but no, bending back again. Trees creaking, groaning, cracking loud. Wind gusts so sharp you have to turn your back and hunch your shoulders. Awesome power in the wind. I tried to film it. You can guess where it will blow next. Just guess.