Earthworms are bad

I thought that title would get your attention. I'm not kidding though. Apparently, earthworms in North America were all killed out during the last ice age 12,000 years ago. The earthworms we have now are from asia, South america, Europe and they kill native bugs in the soil, eat what should not be eating, and can make a happier environment for invasive species. This articles mentions forests and grasslands.

http://www.dasnr.okstate.edu/Members/sean-hubbard-40okstate.edu/earthworms-are-not-always-good-for-the-soil/#content

https://twin-cities.umn.edu/news-events/european-earthworms-cause-big-problems-north-american-forests

I've been wondering why I've never seen any earthworms on the prairie at my place. I thought something was wrong. Perhaps, something is right.

Permies use earthworms for all kinds of things. Perhaps we need to be more cautious about introducing earthworms to our projects in North America.

Generally, that is my understanding as well. However, they are here and there is no effective way to change that. All we can do is adapt.

I think lots of people don't know about the problems with earthworms in North America, that's why I brought it up. And,I also brought it up because I didn't know and just happened to stumble on the information.

I see lots of projects on permies where people are introducing worms into new environments.

Also, there are some other simple things we can do, like not dump our bait worms out at the lake when we're done fishing.

I had also hear that they can loosen the soil and make it easier for trees to fall over in northern MN.
But didn't see that mentioned in the article.

I might be wrong but heard the red wigglers don't go deep enough to survive the winters.

craig howard wrote:I had also hear that they can loosen the soil and make it easier for trees to fall over in northern MN.
But didn't see that mentioned in the article.

I might be wrong but heard the red wigglers don't go deep enough to survive the winters.

Pretty sure I heard Paul was say on TSP recently that composting worms can't live in soil at all. Maybe it was just clay.

By "composting worms" do you mean red wigglers or the common household variety?

Without context, no single thing is bad, or good.

This year I had been planning to introduce worms to my place on the Hudson River in the Adirondacks. I am now thinking more research is needed before I do so.

I agree that one should be cautious with things that may affect an ecosystem. However, we also need to be careful about this concept of native vs non-native. The question (asked by someone well known, but I forget who) is native to when? The earth is in a constant state of changing and adapting. It is my understanding that apples are not "native" to north america. However, most people do not suggest that we should cut down all apple trees and never plant any more. I'm sure they took the place of some other trees of that size from what was native several hundred years ago.

I would argue that earthworms and apple trees are now native to North America. Again, I think we should think about things first, and try to be careful. While I'm not opposed to bamboo and mint, I don't particularly want to only have those two plants on my property... so I would need to be careful about planting them.

My impression is that we can expect the spread of earthworms to "destroy" the northwoods where I live. However, climate change is also doing that and at a rate not all that different. And destroy really only means change. There will still be trees even if oaks, walnut, and locust will be replacing our iconic birch and aspen. I'm not going to import worms (though they're already here) but I'm also not going to kill them any more than I'd kill those invasive European honey bees. I'm going to live with them we'll all adapt together.

I try very much to live by the idea that if a problem exists, and I can't do anything about it, I'm not going to waste time worrying about it.

In this instance, it seems like several assumptions are made that I don't necessarily agree with, and if I did, I couldn't do anything about it anyway, so for me, my rule applies.  The idea that earthworms are bad also directly contradicts my own experience with them.  I generally trust my experience more than I do the most current thinking about something, that may very well be proven wrong in the future.  Areas where my soil is best, and things grow best, are the same areas I have the most earthworms.

It seems like a number of respondents did not read or even skim the attached articles which elucidate where and when earthworms are causing problems. Ho hum.

Yep, it seems like the topic turned from what worms can do that's bad or what worms are better to use,
to "should I care"?

Do a search on shovelhead worms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ77IqGuPfw

denise ra wrote:It seems like a number of respondents did not read or even skim the attached articles which elucidate where and when earthworms are causing problems. Ho hum.

Or did, and simply disagree with them.   For instance “Based on our research, we’re still not certain how the worms got there, but we think they were likely introduced in 2008, when topsoil was brought from the mainland to pave a major road,” Paudel said. “This explanation is support by our observation that nearly all earthworms are close to the paved road.”  There is an enormous difference between correlation and causation, and I think the person making that statement should familiarize themself with both concepts.  Not to mention the fact that if "nearly all" of the worms are still near the paved roads 14 years after introduction, they don't meet my definition of "invasive".

"The effects of the worms are most noticeable in vegetation on the forest floor, which has changed dramatically since the earthworms arrived. The changes include a decline in native plants’ species diversity; increased non-native plants from Europe like buckthorn; and more grasses." is another example of that.  I agree that there has been a decline in native species' diversity in some areas.  I'm not sure that is caused by earthworms.  It seems to me there are a lot of variables that could affect this, not the least of which is climate change.  I think just making a blanket statement "it was caused by earthworms" is a stretch.

It has always struck me that if nearly all “invasive species” were brought in by one other unprecedentedly clever, abundant and widespread species (which will remain nameless), maybe the latter species is the actual efficient cause of the problem. Luckily, that species is also clever enough to design ecosystems of unprecedented abundance and diversity. I look at invasives’ through the lens of how they affect biodiversity and biomass, and try to remember when I point a finger at scotchbroom holding a hillside together, fixating nitrogen, and sheltering native tree seedlings, I have three fingers and a thumb pointing back at me.

I blame the thumb.

Not all earthworms are bad.

Earthworms do a lot for soil.

If you live in a northern state where winters are harsh and earthworms cannot survive then it is quite possible that you do have the invasive worms that were imported.

I have not read those articles that Denise made reference to because I have done research on earthworms.

They recommend Nightcrawlers (Lumbricina terrestris) and Red Wigglers (Eisenia fetida):

The information comes from this book:

"The Worm Book” by Loren Nancarrow and Janet Hogan Taylor.

https://www.tmparksfoundation.org/arthropods

HERE

Another thread that might be of interest:

https://permies.com/t/59684/composting/Worms-bad

I've read similar things about jumping worms, compost  type worms which do seem to be able to survive cold.

No human pathogen can survive an earthworm’s gut.  The exudate from their skin and also in their gut kills E. Coli, Staph, strep and a plethora of other pathogens.  They create tunnels in soil, effectively loosening it so water can percolate down to plant roots.  Earthworm castings are high in calcium and extremely beneficial as a soil builder.  I see Red Wigglers here all the time, especially under containers where I’m growing vegetables and perhaps that is why they survive the cold winters here (down to minus 5F sometimes).   I know they are not our native worms, and may have originated in Africa.  Perhaps someone here knows for sure.  Night crawlers are infrequent in the garden, but I also see them occasionally.   I don’t see them as being bad at all, but very beneficial to overall soil balance, and a food source for many bird species and chickens.  

craig howard wrote:Yep, it seems like the topic turned from what worms can do that's bad or what worms are better to use,
to "should I care"?

Do a search on shovelhead worms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ77IqGuPfw

I don't personally know anyone that has introduced earthworms to their property.  I certainly didn't, but I have millions of them.  Do you have a suggestion what we should do about earthworms if they are indeed bad?  

Trace, we have personally purchased worms meant for fishing that were probably red wigglers or nightcrawlers as those are what are normally sold where we lived to add to our garden where we used to live.

While I can't say for certain though I feel the bad worms, from what I have read were purchased in composting kits.

These worms are not meant to be released into nature and maybe it would be good if they came with a warning label.

Composting worms do so much good that it is hard to say they are bad as long as they are keep in a container.

If I remember correctly they eat food scrap, vegetation, and other items then turn all that into worm casings and a liquid that can be added to the garden.

Then there are the worms that can turn styrofoam and plastic into something useful.

I feel there are enough folks here on the forum that do Vermicomposting that this is also part of a permaculture system.

Faye Streiff, did you read the articles I posted? Yes, earthworms do those things, but they can also have a detrimental effect on Forests and prairies because of, you know, the whole invasive species thing.

Anne Miller, I really like the idea of a warning label on worms. I think it would be better if we just didn't use them though. People seem to think that if you can buy something, whether it's a worm or a chemical, that there can't be anything wrong with it.