RMH in a dwelling that doesn’t have to meet residential code

I see a lot of info on permies about RMH and residential code, but what about when it comes to dwellings built small enough to avoid a permit? Such as a temporary shelter while building a house to code. Or, a “hunting cabin” as we have here in some parts of Michigan—where the amount of time spent per year is limited. I have brought this up with a Michigan off-grid group and got answers ranging from “just do it”, to “you don’t have to meet code”, and “you still have to follow basic building regulations, if the place burns down you could get in trouble.”

I feel like this might be a silly question and maybe I’m missing something obvious as newbie to this stuff. I’m generally having trouble finding info on what is ok when building below residential code. As I’m sure it isn’t a free for all where anything goes.

I would say this is a case where state or local regulations make all the difference. We can't tell what will be allowable without knowing where you are talking about.

I think many areas will base requirements in part on whether there is plumbing and septic, as that is a stand-in for usability as a dwelling.

Your insurance company may have a big say in what you are allowed or required to do, as well.

Kevin David wrote:I have brought this up with a Michigan off-grid group and got answers ranging from “just do it”, to “you don’t have to meet code”, and “you still have to follow basic building regulations, if the place burns down you could get in trouble.”

Out of curiosity, how many of these folks have heard of a rocket mass heater? Especially the person who said, " if the place burns down you could get in trouble.

Kevin said, "I feel like this might be a silly question and maybe I’m missing something obvious as newbie to this stuff. I’m generally having trouble finding info on what is ok when building below residential code. As I’m sure it isn’t a free for all where anything goes.

We live where there are no codes, when we build something we build with safety in mind.

I would love to have a rocket mass heater though when we built our house we had never heard of one and the house is too small to build one now.

Our forum has a lot of knowledgeable folks who know about rocket mass heaters and will help you along the way if you ask questions.

Glenn Herbert wrote:I would say this is a case where state or local regulations make all the difference. We can't tell what will be allowable without knowing where you are talking about.

I think many areas will base requirements in part on whether there is plumbing and septic, as that is a stand-in for usability as a dwelling.

Your insurance company may have a big say in what you are allowed or required to do, as well.

Glenn has given you some great advice about your insurance company. Talk to your insurance company after you have studied the rocket mass heaters and can have evidence to back up your reason for having one.

My suggestion would be to go with the Liberator, UL listed Rocket Heater:


source

https://permies.com/t/187718/permaculture-projects/Uncle-Mud-Tour-Liberator-Rocket

https://permies.com/t/153577/Uncle-Mud-Liberator-Gen-II

https://permies.com/t/137208/Uncle-Mud-Liberator-Rocket-Mass

Hi Kevin;
Is there no building code where you want to build?
Or are you trying to fly under a code by being too small or with a temporary occupation?

If there is no code then, that's it there is no code.
If there is a code, then find out the details before you build.
Every hunting cabin/ice shack I have ever been in has a wood stove.
Usually, a funky tin stove that was removed from someone's home as worn out.
None of those guys could have cared less about a code.

Where I live there is no code.
I can build just about anything I like.
If I somehow manage to start a fire and it then spreads into the national forest,  I would be held liable and billed for a complete forest service response with air support... we are talking nearly a hundred thousand dollars.

The truth is you would need to do something really dumb to manage to start a fire outdoors with an RMH.
Think pouring gasoline directly down a smoldering J-Tube rocket and then dropping your 5-gallon can as you run away!
Like I said "A really dumb hold my beer move".
Yes, sometimes they are cold and want to vent backward, not a big deal other than the smoke.

If you talk to a county official about your heating plans, you always say you are building a masonry stove... NEVER mention the words RMH!


Here is a link to an old post on this subject.
https://permies.com/t/49404/locations-zoning-building-permits#1164510

Glenn Herbert wrote:I would say this is a case where state or local regulations make all the difference. We can't tell what will be allowable without knowing where you are talking about.

I think many areas will base requirements in part on whether there is plumbing and septic, as that is a stand-in for usability as a dwelling.

Your insurance company may have a big say in what you are allowed or required to do, as well.

I figured the answer would be “it depends”…I’m still looking for property, so I don’t know what the local regulations will be. I’m a big planner and this homesteading thing is the plan of a lifetime. I’ve had more important decisions to make in life, but probably not more elaborate ones.

There will be no plumbing or septic. This is just a temporary shelter I plan to live in while building a cordwood house to code.

Speaking of code, I have looked into the  liberator for the cordwood house, Anne. I suppose I could put the liberator in the temporary shelter and transfer it to the house.

To be clear, I’m open to a rocket stove in the temporary shelter too. I was just curious about building something instead of buying a more expensive liberator. I was even thinking I could avoid buying the liberator for the house by following the tips on getting a RMH approved via the masonry stove route that so many experts have talked about on here. But I think  I’d only do that if it would save me significant money.

And yeah, the comments I was getting in that Michigan off-grid group were mostly uninformed opinions. I asked that question about a year ago and learned it’s kinda the opposite of permies in many ways. Lots of people telling everyone “you can’t do this, you can’t do that”…not a lot of creative people looking into regulations or trying to find exemptions, loopholes, etc.

There is a workshop coming up near the end of the month in Michigan on rocket stuff at the Straw Bale Studio. I believe Ernie, Erica, and Uncle Mud have all taught there before. I’m strongly considering going, especially since I need to be over in that area anyway at that time. Seems like a no brainer.

It’s nice to know the liberator is an option if I want a simple solution. Very nice. Thanks for the responses.

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Kevin;
Is there no building code where you want to build?
Or are you trying to fly under a code by being too small or with a temporary occupation?

Hi Thomas, I was hoping to hear from you. I’ve seen many of your posts in this forum. It looks like I just need to be following international building code if I understand this correctly, as per Michigan state regulations... That is, as long as I choose a location with no additional building codes. I’m looking at land in townships with no zoning in the eastern UP of Michigan.

I would prefer to simply “fly under a code by being too small” but I’m not clear on just how much freedom is involved when there is supposedly “no code”….because “no code” still means following IBC, right?

If there is no code then, that's it there is no code.
If there is a code, then find out the details before you build.
Every hunting cabin/ice shack I have ever been in has a wood stove.
Usually, a funky tin stove that was removed from someone's home as worn out.
None of those guys could have cared less about a code.

So when you say “no code”, do you mean just IBC? Or are there places with literally no code?
I’ve found the same to be true here regarding hunting cabins.


From the Michigan Building Code regarding temporary shelter: https://up.codes/viewer/michigan/mi-building-code-2015/chapter/31/special-construction#3103

[A] 108.1 General

The building official is authorized to issue a permit for temporary structures and temporary uses. Such permits shall be limited as to time of service, but shall not be permitted for more than 180 days. The building official is authorized to grant extensions for demonstrated cause.

[A] 108.2 Conformance

Temporary structures and uses shall comply with the requirements in Section 3103.

Also from the same source, different section…

3103.1 General

The provisions of Sections 3103.1 through 3103.4 shall apply to structures erected for a period of less than 180 days. Tents and other membrane structures erected for a period of less than 180 days shall comply with the International Fire Code. Those erected for a longer period of time shall comply with applicable sections of this code.

3103.1.1 Conformance

Temporary structures and uses shall conform to the structural strength, fire safety, means of egress, accessibility, light, ventilation and sanitary requirements of this code as necessary to ensure public health, safety and general welfare.

EDIT: to be clear, in many of these rural places in the UP a structure under 200 sq ft is not subject to residential building code and requires no permit as long as it isn’t occupied too long. The length of time I will need to stay makes me curious about temporary shelter regulations.

I’m leaning strongly towards a liberator. I’ll transfer it to the house when that’s ready. This is the cabin I plan to build. I’m trying to keep everything simple since I’m doing a lot of stuff for the first time. I wanted to check if the chimney design in this video is ok. I’ve looked at the liberator manual and it shows the pipe going out the roof, but it seems to suggest that going out the wall is ok too. Once again, I’m new to all this stuff.

The chimney starts around 12:30


I realize the total floor space this will take up(including the distance from the wall, and floor protector space) is going to be 5 x 2 2/3 ft. I’m ok with that. I plan on making a shed so I don’t need to store much in the cabin. I also plan on making the cabin 12 x 12 or maybe 12 x 16, not 10 x 12.

I’m thinking about the coaxial heat exchanger plans I got from one of the kickstarters too. Since it was designed for a little wood cabin and a liberator. I’d have go with 12 x 16 to follow those plans.
Liberator manual

This probably doesn't answer your question, but if you don't have to worry about codes, consider putting in a rocket oven.  The one they made at Wheaton Labs in 2017 can be adapted to be out indoors.  Check it out: https://permies.com/t/213648

S Rogers wrote:This probably doesn't answer your question, but if you don't have to worry about codes, consider putting in a rocket oven.  The one they made at Wheaton Labs in 2017 can be adapted to be out indoors.  Check it out: https://permies.com/t/213648

I am interested in making an oven, but I think I’ll put it outdoors since I want to follow code for temporary shelters. It’d be doable if I was building a cabin on concrete, but I don’t plan to make my first cabin that way. I believe the liberator gets around this issue since it qualifies as a wood stove, not a masonry heater.

My concern is that an inspector may take a look at my temporary shelter at some point during the building process.

After drawing up some floor plans, I realize adding the coaxial heat exchanger would take up too much space. Even with a 12x16 design. It’s also questionable whether this would meet code for a temporary shelter given the wooden frame for the mass and the support needed for something qualifying as a masonry heater.

Anyway, red cabin doesn’t have the kind of stuff I’ll be having in my cabin(like a compost toilet in a bathroom), so I can see how red cabin has space for the coaxial heat exchanger. I definitely will not have space for mass.