Need help with square foot spacing please?

Hi all, I'm Sharon and brand new here.  I have finally gotten some raised bed boxes (special thanks to my very over achiever hubby), and some wonderful medium - so the boxes are ready for some JUNE planting (high altitude here and cold).  So if I may pick your brains for a few of the things I want to grow so I know how to "square foot" space them...?  I'm skipping the things that I've already found the answers for.  And we are at high altitude and very dry, but will have a great drip system in place by the time we plant in mid JUNE - short season here.

Amaranth (I assume 1 per square)
German Chamomile
Comfrey (non flowering I believe)
Dandelion (I can't even get these rascals to germinate inside my grow tent!!)
Lobelia
Magentaspreen (a large Lamb’s Quarters) - again, I assume 1 per square
Giant Turkish Plantian - same as above?
St John’s Wort (first year "creepers" for now, second year when upright - different spacing?)
Yarrow

In addition to these placement/spacing questions, I'm wondering about who NOT to plant next to each other after I learned that my carrots and parsnips shouldn't be planted together!  Other plants I will have: Arugula, Bell Peppers, Jalapeno Peppers, and Nasturtiums in the various beds.
Thanks in advance for the wonderful help here!  Been reading on this site for years as I love plants - but had no garden till now!  So here I am to ask lots of questions since that's who I am
Sharon

I have always just followed the spacing instruction of the seed packet.

There is a rule of thumb that says something like:

Small plants 16 plants 3 inches apart.

Medium plants 9 plants 4 inches apart

Large plants 4 plants 6 inches apart.

It doesn't hurt if plants get over crowded in my opinion.

My educated guess for a few of these would be:

Amaranth (I assume 1 per square) - sounds good
German Chamomile - 9 per square
Comfrey (non flowering I believe) - 1 plant for 4 to 9 squares for normal comfrey.  Not sure what "non-flowering" comfrey is
Dandelion (I can't even get these rascals to germinate inside my grow tent!!) - 9 per square
Yarrow - 4 per square

I might be wrong but I don't worry too much about what shouldn't be planted by what.  I'd rather go for diversity and hope it works out better, on average, in the end.

Hi, I have a different climate than you (colder and wetter) so take my advice with that in mind.

My yarrow is over 1sf and got that big the first year. Same with my chamomile. They will both crowd out other plants.

St Johns Wort and nasturtiums really take up very little space and fit themselves in-between other plants really well. Great for interplanting.

Peppers and other nightshade plants use and need vertical space so give them 1sf but use up the ground layer around them with low growing plants, like leafy greens or your dandelions.

Mike Haasl wrote:My educated guess for a few of these would be:

Amaranth (I assume 1 per square) - sounds good
German Chamomile - 9 per square
Comfrey (non flowering I believe) - 1 plant for 4 to 9 squares for normal comfrey.  Not sure what "non-flowering" comfrey is
Dandelion (I can't even get these rascals to germinate inside my grow tent!!) - 9 per square
Yarrow - 4 per square

I might be wrong but I don't worry too much about what shouldn't be planted by what.  I'd rather go for diversity and hope it works out better, on average, in the end.

Thanks Mike.  Questions.  
Would Lamb's Quarters (Magentaspreen in particular) use the same spacing as Amaranth?
With the German Chamomile, the size it is "said" to achieve is 24-36” tall, 12-24” wide.  Would I still pack them in at 9 per square (4" apart if I understand all this correctly)?
My "non flowering" Comfrey is (I believe) is the Bocking 14 Russian Comfrey.  A variety of comfrey that is sterile and can only be spread through root division.  Mature size is generally stated as 3-5' tall, 2-3' wide.  So I think your 4 square sounds good.  I could be wrong on any of this, I'm new!
Thanks again for helping out a newbie!!
Sharon

Jenny Wright wrote:Hi, I have a different climate than you (colder and wetter) so take my advice with that in mind.

My yarrow is over 1sf and got that big the first year. Same with my chamomile. They will both crowd out other plants.

St Johns Wort and nasturtiums really take up very little space and fit themselves in-between other plants really well. Great for interplanting.

Peppers and other nightshade plants use and need vertical space so give them 1sf but use up the ground layer around them with low growing plants, like leafy greens or your dandelions.

Thanks Jenny!  I think actually I'm colder, and you're wetter since I'm in zone 3b at high (and very dry) altitude (I just added my location a little while ago, so you wouldn't have known that earlier!).  Appreciate the warning on the Yarrow!  I understand that the first year for the SJW, it creeps, but the second year it assumes upright growth.  With that in mind, would it still be ok to plant "under and around" other larger plants, or would it "outgrow" that space as it starts upward growth?

Hey Sharon, I'm thinking of a much smaller chamomile so I'd go with Jenny's suggestion of a foot per plant.

So blocking 14 flowers wonderfully and the bees love it.  And it doesn't set seed (as I understand).  It will get big.

No idea on the lamb's quarters....

Mike Haasl wrote:Hey Sharon, I'm thinking of a much smaller chamomile so I'd go with Jenny's suggestion of a foot per plant.

So bocking 14 flowers wonderfully and the bees love it.  And it doesn't set seed (as I understand).  It will get big.

No idea on the lamb's quarters....

Mike, I wasn't able to edit my original post to remove "non flowering" on the chamomile - what I meant was that it didn't seed (as you stated also).  You agree then with 4 to 9 squares for this plant?  YIKES!  I have very little bed space, I didn't realize it was such a space hog!  So happy to know that the bees love it - and it's right next to my Russian Sage that they are all over!  And I will give the chamomile some more room - thanks for confirming!  Have a great weekend!

Yup, comfrey gets quite big and bushy.  It flops down and smothers everything in a 3-4' diameter circle but you can chop it before it flops and use the greenery for compost or mulch.  The down side it that it's usually still flowering at that point so you're cutting off the flowers.  I bet it could be contained in something like a large peony ring to keep it more upright...  If you wanted..



Here's what a 2-3 year old comfrey might look like before it flops:

Mike Haasl wrote:I bet it could be contained in something like a large peony ring to keep it more upright...  If you wanted..

What a great idea Mike, and thanks for the "visual aid" to picture what will happen!  I will have hubby make me a support as it starts getting floppy!

This is my third attempt at posting pictures. 😜
Edit: Oh the first picture posted upside down. Look at it sideways and it might make more sense. I am trying to show you how big the chamomile is but it's hard when there are so many plants so close together. It grows 2'-3' tall and ends up flopping over.

This is yarrow from last summer. It's been growing for about a month now. It dies back a little every winter. That's a little under 1 sf but it will get bigger and bushier this summer.

Jenny Wright wrote:This is yarrow from last summer. It's been growing for about a month now. It dies back a little every winter. That's a little under 1 sf but it will get bigger and bushier this summer.

Wow Jenny - thanks for the great pictures!  Without pictures, all I have at this point is a "concept" - nice to put a "face on it" so to speak!  Appreciate your kind help with the chamomile and the yarrow!

I think you've gotten good advice re: spacing above. I would only add that some of your plants are multi-purpose, and the spacing could change according to how you want to use them.

To grow amaranth for the leaves, I'd experiment. Probably 16 in one square, 9 in another. Compare the performance. Manage as cut-and-come-again, so you always get young, tender greens instead of a tough old stem. I would cut them so that a few leaves remained, instead of cutting down to just a stump. They might take that, but I don't know. I'd probably do the same with the lamb's quarter, if I was after the greens.

To grow those same plants for their seed, (or the amaranth for it's blooms) I'd give a lot more space. (Like the one per square listed above.) I'd also consider planting them in the "back" because they'll get tall and cast shade. (In the northern hemisphere, plant them on the north side. Let the sun hit the smaller plants first.) As they progress, you could experiment with stripping the lower limbs or pruning them, to let more light underneath. (Make them "trees" rather than "bushes".)

T Melville wrote:I think you've gotten good advice re: spacing above. I would only add that some of your plants are multi-purpose, and the spacing could change according to how you want to use them.

Great idea T Melville on spacing different for different uses!  I shall do exactly that.  Appreciate your thoughts!

My favourite  is overplanting from seeds, then thining.

When plants are of different families, I let them touch, unless they get too crowded. When they are of the same family, I like to leave the space of a similar plant between them. For example, if a lettuce is 15 cm wide, I leave 30 cm from one lettuce to the next one, measuring from the trunks.
Since I overplanted, some of the plants are going to break the distance rule. I then pick the weakest plant and either cut the by the base or transplant it.

Or at least, that's the theory. In practice, most of them die of underirrigation before they get to touch themselves `:-)

Abraham Palma wrote:When plants are of different families, I let them touch, unless they get too crowded. When they are of the same family, I like to leave the space of a similar plant between them. For example, if a lettuce is 15 cm wide, I leave 30 cm from one lettuce to the next one, measuring from the trunks.

This is a great way to do it, especially for a first garden in this climate (previously lived in the south, now the arid mountains).  So the learning curve is more "edible" with your suggestion!  Thanks :-)

Thank you Anne Miller for your help.  Sorry to be delayed in telling you so.

Anyone here know about the spacing for St John’s Wort (first year "creepers" for now, second year when upright - different spacing?)?

Also, about how large they get first year vs later years?  Thanks all!

Sharon Elizabeth wrote:Anyone here know about the spacing for St John’s Wort (first year "creepers" for now, second year when upright - different spacing?)?

Also, about how large they get first year vs later years?  Thanks all!

Mine are just skinny tall stems that fit between everything else. They stay the same every year since I first noticed it. They planted themselves in my wildflower garden. So they are growing happily along yarrow and daisies and bee balm and clover and lupine and a bunch of other stuff that reseeds or regrows every year. It grows above everything else. You can see how that's different from the oxeye daisy at the top of the picture. That stuff takes over and grows really densely so nothing else can grow there. Same with lupine. The dirt patch on the right is from digging up a clump of lupine that was trying to turn the garden into an exclusive lupine club. The SJW is hard to see in the picture because there are probably at least four other plants growing together there. That little mixed clump is less than 12", the daisy is about 18" to give you some scale.

Wow Jenny - I thought SJW took up considerably more room.  From the way you describe it, you might put 4 in a square?!  Is yours the perforatum variety?  I thought they grew upright from the second year on...