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"Seed-snail" testing thread, 2025

 
Dian Green
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I'm hoping to give gamcod a shot this year and it has me thinking about ways to do compliant seed starting.
I have seen the seed "snail" method come up and it looks like an option. ( it's basically a jelly roll of growing medium and fabric or plastic)
I like how space intensive it could be and that I'll be able to easily access and move seedlings.
I also am going to try and keep it as cheap and using reclaimed materials as much as possible.

We got a couple of full closets out of a house clearing auction and I've pulled a few pairs of cotton, denim and khaki, pants that I'm going to cut up for fabric strips. I also have a bit of 100% cotton left over from mask making and a bit of linen to try as well.
I've been collecting some metal baking trays and pans from other auctions and thrifting so I'll use those to keep the rolls in.

I'm going to try and keep this vaguely scientific so I will also be trying seeds in the regular plastic cells I've been given as well as some pressed peat pots and the handful of expanding starting peat disks that came in another box lot. I may do a couple of rolls with plastic strips as well. I have enough beds that these other trials can go there. Hopefully, this will give me some ideas about how well each method works!
I figured that since I was giving this a shot, I might as well share the process.


IMG_2816.JPG
Pants and fabric to become strips for seed rolls
Pants and fabric to become strips for seed rolls
IMG_2819.JPG
Tags of pants to be salvaged
Tags of pants to be salvaged
IMG_2825.JPG
Vintage metal baking pans for seed starting
Vintage metal baking pans for seed starting

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Nancy Reading
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Thank you so much for sharing this method Dian! I think that it could be very useful to me too. I'd heard of something similar for starting cuttings, and it seems pretty straightforwards. This video gives an overview of the method and sates a few things to watch out for.



If you are using something porous like cloth, you may want a deeper pot so as not to lose too much moisture through the walls. I'm excited to see how you get on - and may give it a try myself!

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Dian Green
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Thanks for the video link Nancy!
I'm hoping to fill one of the high walled, round pans with fabric rolls so that might compensate for the porosity of the fabrics. We'll see.

I'd love to see how it works for you, if you give some a try!

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Derek Thille
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I missed that video Ashley posted (Gardening in Canada)...I've been *trying* to limit my YouTube time with perhaps maybe limited success...so many rabbit warrens to explore....  She is a soil science grad of my alma mater.

Dian - I envision that looking like a pan of cinammon buns all nestled together...mmm...perhaps I need to do some baking before I consider seeding....

She Who Must Be Obeyed bought a heavy duty shelving unit that was used through the fall to store ripening tomatoes and other stuff in the front entrance...it has now been reassembled in the room where we intend to start seeds.  Part of her reasoning was to be able to get something we could hang some lights from as the seedlings grow.

Good on you for getting creative with the baking pans.  Whatever did we do before the scourge of plastic entered our lives? (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Working toward a permaculture-strong retirement near sunny Sperling.

 
Jay Angler
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I think that the number one benefit of this system over "plant cells and peat pots," is the soil depth. I've read several places that a minimum of 3" of soil helps to not just give healthier seedlings, but helps them not to bolt.

I suspect that the only reason that commercial companies can offer all those plant cell transplants is that they've got the whole system on automatic water and artificial fertilizer. I think I would struggle to find a healthy microbe in the whole batch.

What amazes me is how many small seeds put down a 3 inch root within about 3 days, so I totally agree that depth matters.

However, if you have more space than a roll needs, I'd suggest you consider paper pots. They can be made after dark to balance the time cost.
Here's a thread that shows both round ones and square ones: https://permies.com/t/225570/paper-pots

Support will be important for both the snail method and paper pots. I was using some upcycled plastic bins, but as they've gradually been dying, I'm on the lookout for metal restaurant warming trays. Taller pots definitely need higher support.

If you try swapping out plastic or waxed paper for something biodegradable, the seeds will try to send out lateral roots through the paper or cloth wall. How much this will be a problem partly depends on the seed, and partly depends on how quickly you plan to transplant them. The video implies that she will transplant them into a larger pot, but doesn't show what size she's planning to use. I get to skip that step, as my paper pots have enough soil to get many seeds to large enough plants that I can dig a hole and drop the paper pot directly in and not disturb an root that stayed inside. Yes, I often get roots growing out the bottom with things like peas and beans, but so long as I'm gentle, the plants don't tend to have a set back.

Looking forward to how the snails work out!

Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads

 
Dian Green
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I thought about paper pots Jay but considering that cardboard is not allowed for gamcod, I figured paper was out too.
I have a few ceramic and metal pots that should let me repot any big seedlings for that plot. I'm going to mostly be planting it with tubers, slips, transplants and direct sowing so there are not going to be a huge number of bigger seedlings to deal with repotting.

We picked up a pile of $5 herb and other plants last year on clearance for 25 cents each. They had nice, deep plastic pots that I've stashed so those should get me through this season at least for some of the other plots. I'm keeping my eyes open for any good deals on non-plastic pots too.

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dian Green
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I had already washed the fabrics and clothes in plain soap to remove any residues.
The cotton and linen fabrics were separated into strips by ripping along the weaves. 3 strips of the cotton and 2 of the linen.

The pants were then turned inside out and I cut up the seams to open up the legs.

The bottom half of the leg was folded up to be a guide as it was cut to make an even strip then cut off on the top.

I got 4 strips out of each pair for a total of 12 strips. All at least 32" long. A couple of the denim are shorter since I kept the back pockets as salvage for other projects.

The process took about 20 minutes.

IMG_2829.JPG
Inside out pants, ready for salvaging
Inside out pants, ready for salvaging
IMG_2830.JPG
Starting to cut at the bottom of a leg
Starting to cut at the bottom of a leg
IMG_2831.JPG
Pant leg cut into 2 strips
Pant leg cut into 2 strips
IMG_2834.JPG
Bottom of leg strip folded up as a cutting guide
Bottom of leg strip folded up as a cutting guide
IMG_2839.JPG
Group of salvaged fabric strips
Group of salvaged fabric strips

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Derek Thille
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Dian, are those scissors in the photo powered or something?  That's the only thing I can figure with the wire.  I was not aware of anything like that.

My biggest struggle with scissors, particularly those plastic moulded handles, is that their made for right hands and I'm a leftie.  First world problems....

Working toward a permaculture-strong retirement near sunny Sperling.

 
William Bronson
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I guess this is better than a dishpan full of seedlings.
Less root entanglement, handy out in the field?
Could we add a chop stick ,dowl, or twisted up rod of paper every few inches for even more separation?
Maybe strips of cellulous sponge.
I wonder if this would work with a roll of aluminum flashing, which is durable reusable and cheap.
I wonder if it would work with winter sowing?


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Dian Green
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Derek, the scissors are supposed to be able to put out a light beam to help guide your cutting. That part you see doesn't lock in properly.
We got them very cheap, possiblely due to the not working thing, but they are very sharp and easy in the hand so I am happy to use them. ( good fabric scissors are to be treasured)

I actually have a pair of quite good lefty scissors that came out of another lot. I'm ambidextrous in a chunk of things but it turns out using scissors is one of the ones where I'm pretty strongly right handed.

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Cheryl Elliott
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Farida Sober is the originator of this method.  You can see her videos on Instagram, TikTok, and FB.  
 
Dian Green
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My seeds from the Experimental Farm Network arrived and I really needed to get some of them and a few other things going so I did up my first batch of snails.
I used a mix of high vermiculite and peat moss potting soil I had left over from last year since it has not thawed enough here to go out and get stuff for my homemade version.

The black cotton pant strips are too wide. Most of the strips I did are a bit wide but it was severe enough on those that I ended up quartering them. That gave me good sized pieces for the rolls.

Going forward, I think no more than 6" of width.
I also need to get better at the actual rolling. I think the way forward is to leave a bit of extra on the bottom and then it can be folded to close off the bottom and help hold the whole roll together.
5 went into the one metal pan and this was a bit of a monster. With getting the soil wet enough to do the rolling, it was around 7-10 pounds!
The mix of fabrics meant I was able to just draw a map for what went where, rather than trying to label it all. There was so much available room in the rolls I went ahead and filled parts of them with some seeds I'm unsure about their viability, but wanted to try them.

I also filled a bunch of the expanding peat pots we had on hand so there is some duplication for testing. We'll see how it all works out.
IMG_2854.JPG
Metal pan with 5 seed snail potting soils rolls, using different fabrics
Metal pan with 5 seed snail potting soils rolls, using different fabrics

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dian Green
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So far there are only 2 things that are up. The perennial kales and the multiplier onions. The ones in the peat pots are slightly farther ahead, but it's not that significant.
The smaller peat group looks like it may be going moldy, so that isn't good.
20250213_130358.jpg
onion sprouts in a fabric seed snail
onion sprouts in a fabric seed snail
20250213_130340.jpg
kale sprouts in a seed snail
kale sprouts in a seed snail
20250213_130326.jpg
kale and onion sprouts in peat pots
kale and onion sprouts in peat pots
20250213_130335.jpg
moldy peat pots :(
moldy peat pots :(

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
May Lotito
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I recently did some germination test on milkweed seeds and ended up with lots of seedlings. They naturally have very long tap roots so I put them in the seed snails. Thanks for introducing this method. Segregation of roots from many seedlings is another important factor. Later on when I transplant them individually in ground, the roots won't be tangled and damaged.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

 
Dian Green
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I have to start a few new snails in the next couple of weeks. So far, they are looking to be good.
I had slightly faster germination in the peat pots but the seedlings in the snails are much bigger and healthier looking.
The potato onions are doing really well and getting so big! As are the perennial kales. Some of the skirret and a few of the celeric are coming up but nothing else yet.
20250225_125443.jpg
seed snails seedlings, Feb 25
seed snails seedlings, Feb 25
20250225_125449.jpg
peat pots seedlings, Feb 25
peat pots seedlings, Feb 25

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Tim Siemens
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Thanks for the update.  Looks like the snails have potential.

No man is an island.

 
Dian Green
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It's a bit later than I probably should give gotten to it, but I got a second round of snails made and planted.
I used the black cotton pieces and cut them into quarters.
I packed the soil along the top edges and folded the extra fabric around the bottoms to close it off. This made them much easier to manage.
The smaller sizes should make watering easier since that was a problem with the height of the bigger rolls.
The round tins are a great size and depth but I only have one light cart for the seedlings and really need to use the rectangular bases to get everything to fit.
The seedlings in the peat pots were so much weaker that I potted out a bunch of them as well. I'll wait a bit longer before taking the big snails apart since I am hoping more stuff will still come up.
20250305_133330.jpg
new seed snails tray, March 5,
new seed snails tray, March 5,
20250305_133322.jpg
1st seed snails tray, March 5
1st seed snails tray, March 5
20250305_133333.jpg
peat pots trial tray, March 5
peat pots trial tray, March 5
20250306_160221.jpg
potted out seedlings
potted out seedlings
20250302_134753.jpg
close up of seed snail
close up of seed snail

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dian Green
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I was maybe a bit late on getting the rolls planted with the tomatoes and other nightshade, but they started moving fast!
I was also a bit worried since this was my first time doing seed saving from tomatoes as well but I've got lots of them coming up.
The old group is still doing really well. I think I will have to repot the kales in the next week but they are SO much bigger than the peat pot ones it's a bit shocking.

Overall, I am happy with how they are working so far. The first unrolling will be educational.
20250313_130217.jpg
nightshade sprouts, March 13
nightshade sprouts, March 13
20250313_130439.jpg
first roll set, March 13
first roll set, March 13

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dian Green
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I decided to go ahead and try the plastic free and cheap potting up option I'd been considering.

A vintage metal baking tray and metal basket from house auctions and then I lined the basket with some of the salvaged denim strips.
Next was a bunch of leaves from the pile to cover and pad the bottom. Then a mix of some of our dirt with some ripped up leaves.
Then I unrolled a couple of the rolls and moved the seedlings.
We'll see how they do
20250318_135442.jpg
metal tray and basket and fabric strips
metal tray and basket and fabric strips
20250318_140001.jpg
basket with fabric lining and base layer of leaves
basket with fabric lining and base layer of leaves
20250318_141116.jpg
garden dirt and aged leaves
garden dirt and aged leaves
20250318_141601.jpg
basket filled and ready for seedlings
basket filled and ready for seedlings
20250318_141948.jpg
fabric roll with large seedlings
fabric roll with large seedlings
20250318_142039.jpg
close up of skirret seedling
close up of skirret seedling
20250318_143039.jpg
seedlings potted out into the basket
seedlings potted out into the basket

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Nancy Reading
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Thanks for the update Dian - nice roots on the seed snail seedlings! how did you find them to handle? were they much tangled or easier than you would expect from a 'flat' sown seed?

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Dian Green
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I have opened up and potted out my tomato seedlings.
It was a bit easier, I think, to get them separated but I probably made the snails a bit thicker than ideal.  If they were very thin, then there would very little option to tangle. Better seed spacing would have also helped. I got a bit over 40 tomatoes and 10 or so tomatillos and ground cherries out of 2 and 1/2 rolls, so it is space efficient.

Overall, I am happy with this as a starting method.

I am not intending to put any of the tomatoes into the GAMCOD plot so I did pot them out into plastic and peat pots. I just don't have enough* of the metal/clay pots to do them all so am saving what I have for stuff that will go into that plot.

*we're watching a local auction that has tons of terracotta pots, but I'm not going to get my hopes up yet.

20250325_134005.jpg
seed snails before opening, March 25, 2025
seed snails before opening, March 25, 2025
20250325_141521.jpg
some of the potted out seedlings
some of the potted out seedlings

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Ac Baker
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It's not much to look at, but using a very old pair of 100% cotton jeans (which I will never fit in again, and the fabric has become too fragile to repair), and a catering-size chopped tomato tin that's been in my garden for a couple of years:

I've made my first 'seed-snail', to try to start courgettes (which hate root disturbance).

2025-03-27-ACB-Seed-Snail.jpeg
Using old jeans, and a big tomato tin, a seed-snail.
Using old jeans, and a big tomato tin, a seed-snail.

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Dian Green
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I did get a ton of Terra cotta pots on the cheap so I'll be potting out a bunch if stuff this week.

A lifetimes supply for under $50!
20250401_174811.jpg
many, many pots
many, many pots

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dian Green
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I decided to wait on potting stuff out due to lack of inside space and it being too cold to start hardening off.

Things are due to be warmer after tonight so I got to work.
The wire basket with fabric lining seemed to work okay, but I don't have the time to keep up it's water needs. Also, I think I didn't break the leaves down enough in it's soil mix so they are struggling.
At least it is warm enough now that I could dig some dirt up and was able to pot out the seedlings from it.
They are pretty sad looking, but I hope most will make it.

20250417_122629.jpg
seedlings in wire basket with fabric
seedlings in wire basket with fabric
20250417_131017.jpg
seedlings potted out to terracotta pots
seedlings potted out to terracotta pots

All true wealth is biological.
Lois McMaster Bujold

 
Dee Rick
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You should check out organic freak on YouTube. She has videos going back 6 and 9 years using this method. Her video how to germinate any seeds, this method saves space posted 9 years ago. I don't know if she is the original  person but she was using this method long before it became popular on Instagram.
 
Nancy Reading
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Thanks Dee (welcome to permies!) I found organic freaks video :



for seed starting.

Interestingly she doesn't use any soil in this video, just a paper towel with a plastic foam as the layer separator. I may try something similar for my HPS* seeds this year. I only get a very few in the seed share, so each one is precious and it will be nice to be able to unroll and inspect without digging up compost...easy to put the container in the bottom of the fridge for those that need stratification too.

In this follow up video of seedlings she has got some seed compost in the tubes:



But it could also be interesting to germinate without and then transplant once the seeds are sprouting.


(*HPS Hardy Plant Society)

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Ela La Salle
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This is WILD!  Looks easier than waiting for seeds to sprout in containers.
Thank you for finding and posting it!
 
Nancy Reading
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I'm trying my first seed roll with my runner bean seeds. It's really a little late to be sowing them, but I'm hoping for a good summer this time...

big mix of runner bean seeds


I have some cotton material saved from the legs of some overalls that were past mending. Just a little trimming to make nice strips. A thin layer of seed compost then went on, then I rolled them up.

making seed snails from old cotton clothes


Once rolled up I put them in large plant pots and placed the bean seeds carefully into the top of the spiral and covered them with a little more compost. They are now on my window sill, where I'm hoping that we get a bit of morning sun to give them a bit of warmth to help germination.

seed snails on windowsill


I ran out of seed compost but still had some seeds left, so I used a bit of old towelling and a cut up plastic carrier bag to make a smaller roll with no compost for the last of the seeds. Those will probably need transplanting almost as soon as the sprout.

I also put some very old dry seeds in a bowl of water to test for viability. I think they are about 20 years old, so I'm not holding out much hope. I didn't want to risk them rotting my other good seeds, so kept them seperate, but you never know - they look good after a day soaking....

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
C. Letellier
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Derek Thille wrote:Dian, are those scissors in the photo powered or something?  That's the only thing I can figure with the wire.  I was not aware of anything like that.

My biggest struggle with scissors, particularly those plastic moulded handles, is that their made for right hands and I'm a leftie.  First world problems....



Go to amazon and search left handed sissors.  They are readily available.

Country oriented nerd with primary interests in alternate energy in particular solar. Dabble in gardening, trees, cob, soil building and a host of others.

 
Derek Thille
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C. Letellier wrote:

Derek Thille wrote:Dian, are those scissors in the photo powered or something?  That's the only thing I can figure with the wire.  I was not aware of anything like that.

My biggest struggle with scissors, particularly those plastic moulded handles, is that their made for right hands and I'm a leftie.  First world problems....



Go to amazon and search left handed sissors.  They are readily available.



Thanks.  I know they are out there, but I'm not sure it makes sense for as much as I use scissors that cause issues.  Admittedly, this post was after having cut up a dying pair of cargo pants (so tougher material) with pinking shears...that was painful.  It had been years since I previously used pinking shears and if I behave myself, I can get my wife or daughter to take care of those sorts of cuts in the future.  At any rate, it's a low priority.  Of course, if they were simpler handles in the first place they could be used more easily with either hand.

Working toward a permaculture-strong retirement near sunny Sperling.

 
Nancy Reading
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Update on my runner beans - I thought they weren't going to do anything at all, but they are finally sprouting over the last few days. I don't know whether it has been still too cold on the window sill, or whether some of the other seeds are also a bit old (the 20 year old ones in the bowl just rotted - I think I'll cook the rest!) but the germination has been patchy.
If we get a sunny morning the East facing window lets the sun in and traps the heat between the curtain and the window pane. Unfortunately it has been rarely sunny this last couple of weeks, so maybe they would have done better with heat from my propagator and possibly presoaking. However it looks like I will have enough plants to be worth planting out now. I'll leave them a few more days and then try and harden them off outside in the rolls and plant direct without potting on first as it is so late.
seed_snails_sprouting.jpg
First sprouts from runner bean seeds
First sprouts from runner bean seeds

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Nancy Reading
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I planted out my bean plants from the seed snails today.
I was very happy with the healthy roots and how easy the plants were to separate from each other. I did get a little root penetration of the fabric I used, and I would definitely suggest trying not to have any seams in the rolls if you do use fabric, as there was more root loss into the seam I had on one of the rolls.
The roll I made with no compost was the poorest - fewer seed germinating and since the fabric was quite coarse weave (cotton towelling) the roots were more entangled in the fabric. Possibly luckily however, these also had the least root development, so not much was lost. It maybe that the lack of compost made the snail dry out more and that is why they didn't develop so well, I'm not sure.
The compost I used on the larger snails was not good quality - quite old and anaerobic - so hardened a bit, but this didn't seem to too much of a problem. Overall I liked the seed snails and will definitely try them again.
seed_snail_ready.jpg
Runner bean seed snail - before unrolling
Runner bean seed snail - before unrolling
bean_root_seed_snail.jpg
Seed snail bean root development
Seed snail bean root development

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Ela La Salle
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Nancy Reading wrote:.


WOW! That's fantastic! You are so brave!  Thank you for your observations, notes. and pictures!
 
Nancy Reading
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Ela,
I'm not sure what you mean by brave? Foolhardy perhaps planting beans this late here! At least they are in the ground now, and plants do grow very well here in the summer due to our long daylight hours and rain, and certainly better than they do in the packets.

How Permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
My projects on Skye: The tree field, Growing and landracing, perennial polycultures, "Don't dream it - be it! "

 
Ela La Salle
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Nancy Reading wrote:Ela,
I'm not sure what you mean by brave? Foolhardy perhaps planting beans this late here! At least they are in the ground now, and plants do grow very well here in the summer due to our long daylight hours and rain, and certainly better than they do in the packets.


Well, you DID IT! "Foolhardy" is a compliment, and well deserved one.  I think many people who are interested in gardening/growing things/raising animals and so on just don't give up In trying to do "unthinkable".  While sometimes it may work, sometimes it may not, it gives a piece of mind of "hey, at least I tried". See what I mean?
You did it your way, and should be proud of it.  So, you are brave! Besides, just think how many  people on permaculture site will benefit because of you!
P.S. I should be so lucky with trying to grow skirret (have to wait till next Spring while the seeds are going to rest in the fridge until then! LOL)
 
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