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Food grade lye - sourcing or making

 
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I've got a recipe to try (pretzels) that has "food grade lye" as an ingredient. This isn't something I've come across. I gather it is Sodium Hydroxide solution, which seems a bit unlikely (as it is also a drain cleaner), but I guess it comes down to concentration and dosage.
Can I make this, or something else that will do the same job? Or will I need to find an online supplier for it?
 
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I would use good quality, fresh, non-toxic wood ash, mix with water, let settle, decant through a fine sieve or cheesecloth, and use that. That is what I do for nixtamalizing corn or occasionally for acorn processing. I have not made pretzels though, so it would be an experiment.
 
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You can make an easy lye water with baking soda and water.

First bake the baking soda in the oven for one hour at 250°F/120°C.

Then dissolve 2/3 cup of the baked baking soda in 2 cups of water.

Dip the formed raw pretzels in this solution for three to four minutes.

Rinse off the excess dipping solution by dipping into a large bowl of plain water, apply an egg wash, kosher salt and bake.
 
Nancy Reading
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Thank you both!

M Ljin - I've not made pretzels either, so either way it is an experiment! I do have a wood fired stove, so have access to known wood ash....

Anne - baking soda appears to be the same as bicarbonate of soda in the UK. I went down a rabbit hole checking; I wonder why it is called bicarbonate of soda, when there is only one carbonate to sodium? ( NaHCO3 )  So that is also an easy thing to try...

I may try the wood ash first as that saves buying large quantities of baking soda, and then nothing much to do with the waste liquid. As I have very acidic soil, I don't think either will do the garden much harm when diluted.

 
Anne Miller
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Usually I say Baking soda aka bicarbonate of soda.

May be called that because: It is a salt composed of a sodium cation and a bicarbonate anion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate

Chemistry was a favorite subject in school though that was a long time ago.

I don't know where you usually shop:

https://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/borwicks-bicarbonate-of-soda

https://mcgrocer.com/products/bake-by-asda-bicarbonate-of-soda

Maybe this is something to consider selling in your shop?

For us, Americans it would be unusual not to have it already in the pantry.

I cook without baking powder and with baking soda instead because baking powders dies before I can use it.
 
Nancy Reading
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Anne Miller wrote:Maybe this is something to consider selling in your shop?


Oh we stock it, but I usually use it by the teaspoon not the cup!

I cook without baking powder and with baking soda instead because baking powders dies before I can use it.


Yes the baking powder mix or self raising flour have a much shorter shelf life than the separate ingredients....I think it's a good idea to add them at the last minute.
 
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I make lye for use in cooking and soap-making. I just use ashes from the fireplace. Fill a bucket half way with ashes and fill it up all the way with water. Leave it sit overnight. Pour off the lye.

You can filter it through itself by poking a little hole in the bottom of the bucket. The first bit that comes out will be cloudy,  but soon it will start coming out clear. At that point take the cloudy stuff and pour it back on the top so all of it gets filtered clear.

You can use it as a liquid, or boil it down to "salt" in a wok.

Here in Africa it is a staple seasoning in stews. It softens the greens and blends flavor. Obviously it cuts acidity too. I use it as the main ingredient in my rehydration formula. I made liquid soap with it during the COVID lock-down. Also I use it to emulsify oils in lotion.
 
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Nathanael Szobody wrote:Here in Africa it is a staple seasoning in stews. It softens the greens and blends flavor.  



Baking soda is my secret ingredient when making pinto beans and in the flour mix for chicken fried steak.

I recommend Leigh's book:  

https://permies.com/wiki/168291/Bake-Baking-Powder-Leigh-Tate
 
M Ljin
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Nathanael Szobody wrote:

Here in Africa it is a staple seasoning in stews. It softens the greens and blends flavor. Obviously it cuts acidity too. I use it as the main ingredient in my rehydration formula. I made liquid soap with it during the COVID lock-down. Also I use it to emulsify oils in lotion.



Thank you! I never thought to add it to greens—that could be interesting to try.
 
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Nancy Reading wrote:I wonder why it is called bicarbonate of soda, when there is only one carbonate to sodium? ( NaHCO3 )


I didn't know either, but it was interesting to find out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicarbonate wrote:The term "bicarbonate" was coined in 1814 by the English chemist William Hyde Wollaston. The name lives on as a trivial name.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivial_name wrote:Generally, trivial names are not useful in describing the essential properties of the thing named, such as the molecular structure of a chemical compound. And, in some cases, trivial names can be ambiguous or carry different meanings in different industries or different geographic regions (for example, a trivial name such as white metal can mean various things). A limited number of trivial chemical names are retained names, an accepted part of the nomenclature.

 
Nathanael Szobody
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I should add that the tastier lyes come from palm tree trunks. In Africa they burn doum palm, and in the Philippines i had salt from coconut palm ashes. In the second case they mixed the lye water with sea water to get salt and all those amazing minerals in the final product.

So if you're looking for a high food grade lye, consider which of your local trees are highest in minerals like potassium and sodium (ai chatbots can quickly write you up a comparison) but you always have the option of throwing in sea salt as well.

Otherwise,  any food crop residue is a good source for cooking lye. Here people use sorghum stalks and sesame seed stems...
 
Nancy Reading
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Nathanael Szobody wrote:you always have the option of throwing in sea salt as well.


Living by the coast I could use sea water as the liquour.....
 
Nathanael Szobody
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Anne Miller wrote:

Nathanael Szobody wrote:Here in Africa it is a staple seasoning in stews. It softens the greens and blends flavor.  



Baking soda is my secret ingredient when making pinto beans and in the flour mix for chicken fried steak.

I recommend Leigh's book:  

https://permies.com/wiki/168291/Bake-Baking-Powder-Leigh-Tate



Baking soda works really well chemically. But lye definitely has more flavor. I like to throw baking soda in overnight sourdough for morning pancakes. The gluten binding with the puff from acid reaction is pure magic!

I also use baking soda for deodorant and brushing my teeth...
 
Christopher Weeks
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Nancy Reading wrote:Living by the coast I could use sea water as the liquour.....


I was already running Copilot through some scenarios other than hardwood for lyemaking, but your comment about having easy access to seawater got me wondering about seaweed:


🌿 Seaweed Ash for Lye Production

Seaweed ash is one of the most potent natural sources of alkali, historically used in soap and glass making.

🔬 Why Seaweed Ash Works Well:


  • [*] Seaweed (especially kelp and brown algae) is very high in potassium salts, particularly potassium carbonate (K₂CO₃).
    [*] When burned, these salts remain in the ash and dissolve in water to form a strong alkaline solution.
    [*] Seaweed ash was once a commercial source of soda ash and potash.


  • 🧼 Historical Uses:

  • [*] Soap making: Used in coastal communities.
    [*] Glass making: Provided alkali to lower silica’s melting point.
    [*] Fertilizer: Rich in potassium and trace minerals.


  • 📊 Comparison Table:
    Ash SourcePotassium ContentLye StrengthNotes
    HardwoodHighStrongTraditional source
    Crop residueLow–ModerateWeakInconsistent
    ComfreyModerate–HighModerateDynamic accumulator
    SeaweedVery HighVery StrongExcellent for lye


    ⚠️ Caution:
    Seaweed ash may contain sodium salts and trace heavy metals, depending on the water it grew in. Always test the pH and alkalinity before using it in soap or food-related applications.

     
    M Ljin
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    Nathanael Szobody wrote:I should add that the tastier lyes come from palm tree trunks. In Africa they burn doum palm, and in the Philippines i had salt from coconut palm ashes. In the second case they mixed the lye water with sea water to get salt and all those amazing minerals in the final product.

    So if you're looking for a high food grade lye, consider which of your local trees are highest in minerals like potassium and sodium (ai chatbots can quickly write you up a comparison) but you always have the option of throwing in sea salt as well.

    Otherwise,  any food crop residue is a good source for cooking lye. Here people use sorghum stalks and sesame seed stems...



    Oh, of course… coltsfoot or butterbur ash is very traditional as a salt substitute. They taste good on their own, unburnt, too. I have some dried coltsfoot leaves stashed away, so will have to try!

    I believe it is Petasites frigidus that is the most traditional. They grow in my county but only at high elevations naturally, I believe—I shall have to go looking.

    I am growing fuki the first time (Japanese butterbur). The leaves are not used, but the leafstalk, as vegetables. Maybe the leaves can be used for this purpose.
     
    M Ljin
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    I confirm, it tastes of salt! Making it in quantity might be a puzzle.

    Yarrow is a plant I have used as a salt substitute, but only the flowers themselves, not the ash. I am not sure—would I burn precious yarrow flowers that are tasty all on their own?

    NAEB, surprisingly does not give it as a salt substitute but it seems from the list that P. frigidus are the most edible species of butterbur/coltsfoot, at least nearby. Growing feral from plantings is fuki (a Japanese mountain vegetable), and in a similar habitat, European butterbur (no recorded edible use, used for butter and potentially microbial cultures) is naturalized. And they are the native variety.
     
    Nathanael Szobody
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    M Ljin wrote:

    Oh, of course… coltsfoot or butterbur ash is very traditional as a salt substitute. They taste good on their own, unburnt, too. I have some dried coltsfoot leaves stashed away, so will have to try!



    Whatever you use,  wood and stems are going to be the most efficient source of ash.
     
    Nancy Reading
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    I've had a go at making some wood ash lye:

    I used a large plastic flower pot and put some rye straw, which I had just separated the seed from, in the bottom to act as a filter.
    Then I emtpied some ash out of the stove into it and removed the larger pieces of charcoal:

    separating charcoal from wood ash

    I poured in about an equal depth of water (as much as would fit in the pot without overflowing and let it flow though into a plastic bucket:

    home made lye with wood ash

    I tasted it and tested for alkalinity by pouring a little onto some tartaric acid. I wasn't that impressed - no strong flavour and no sign of bubbles...So I poured the liquour through the ash two more times. There was a slight taste, but I still didn't think it was very strong, so I have boiled it on the stove and reduced by half. Hopefully now it will be strong enough to prove the principal at least. I guess I need a deeper pot, or maybe there just isn't much potassium hydroxide in the ash from alder and spruce (which is what we mainly burn...)
     
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    When I've made ash lye to use in soap making, I've boiled the ashes for a bit to extract the potassium salts (which I suspect are more likely potassium carbonate than hydroxide) before decanting repeatedly to get rid of all the solids. The ashes I used were also mainly from spruce, so I suspect there is less potassium than in hardwood ashes. Or maybe it's harder bound somehow and that's why it needs to be boiled? Anyways, boiling it makes decently strong lye (I tend to test by carefully dipping my fingertips in it and rinsing them off under the tap, checking how long they feel "soapy").

    I did boil it down to potash once or twice, for use in various experiments. I haven't tried baking with it yet, though. It turns out a rather nice yellowish colour, sort of like unrefined cane sugar, and smells... alkaline, I guess.

    Also, as a side note, I wouldn't recommend eating Petasites frigidus, at least not the roots. A few years ago, I read on plants for a future that you could, went and got some rhizome and boiled it. It was one of the most disgusting things I ever tried eating, sort of stale and bitter in a really nasty way. I also got a second opinion from my room-mate at the time, who thought exactly the same thing. I didn't try the leaves though, maybe they are better? And maybe the taste doesn't go into the ashes if that's the part you want.

    Edit to add: Never boil or store ash lye in an aluminium vessel! It eats right through the metal. Me and a friend made that mistake once when trying to make soap with insufficient equipment, resulting in one ruined pot. Stainless steel is fine, and I suppose cast iron might be okay if you're prepared to re-grease the pot afterwards.
     
    Nathanael Szobody
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    Nice going Nancy! I usually let the water soak overnight first. You know it's strong enough for soapmaking when an egg floats in it,  but for cooking you likely want it much more concentrate.
     
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    Interesting conversation.  I don’t know what difference it makes overall, but I am glad someone is recognizing that the lye from wood ash is potassium hydroxide.

    I extracted lye from wood ash once, and then boiled it down to a crystal.  Then worried because I had children in the house and the crystal was a very interesting shape, and I assumed it was highly caustic, so I didn’t want it around!

    I used to use stainless steel for dissolving lye for my soap, but noticed a little bit of sediment in the bottom of the pot, consistently, every batch.  When I switched to a plastic bucket, no more sediment.  Not that I like plastic, AT ALL!  But soap making is one of the few uses for plastics in my life that I consider legitimate.  It is something a person might want to know if lye is a regular part of their diet.


    I’ve read that to use wood ash lye for soap making, reduce the volume of dilute lye solution until it’s dense enough to float an egg, but didn’t ever see any ratio of fats to wood lye solution.

    So interesting to hear people refer to the lye as having various flavors depending on what wood was burned.

    I guess I have a lot more to learn about lye.  I might try it added to soup, but not the drain opener pure sodium hydroxide I have for soap making!  Winter is coming and I will have ashes available!

    I hope the pretzels came out, Nancy😊
     
    Nancy Reading
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    Thekla McDaniels wrote:I hope the pretzels came out, Nancy😊


    Oh they came out great - tasty edible bread rolls at least! My shaping wasn't excellent, and I'm not sure what they are actually supposed to taste like...Here's a bad picture:


    I suspect that the lye I made was no where near as strong as it should have been to get the authentic crust effect. I could have soaked them longer perhaps, or worked out properly the relative strength to boil my solution down to. However I'm feeling happy that I have now given the wood ash extraction a go and have some pointers to make it better next time too.
     
    Thekla McDaniels
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    Excellent!
     
    Christopher Weeks
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    Does the lye give the pretzels the glossy crust they normally have and yours don't really?

    Whatever "AI" tool DDG uses gave me this, so I don't really need an answer. :-)

    Lye pretzels, also known as German lye pretzels, are traditional soft pretzels that are dipped in a lye solution before baking, giving them a distinctive chewy texture, deep brown color, and glossy finish. The lye bath enhances the flavor and appearance of the pretzels, making them a beloved snack in Germany and beyond.

     
    Nancy Reading
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    Yes I think they should be more shiny and chewy - they were tasty, but probably not like 'the real thing'.
     
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    M Ljin,
    Please either send me to the thread or let me know here how and why you use lye in acorn processing!
     
    M Ljin
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    R Willow wrote:M Ljin,
    Please either send me to the thread or let me know here how and why you use lye in acorn processing!



    Welcome to Permies R!

    Sam Thayer says in one of his books, that it neutralizes the tannins more effectively. I haven’t done it that often but it makes a little difference. Nothing dramatic—and don’t do it in the last few water changes, so that the acorns don’t taste of ash!

    To put it simply, I cook/leach acorns by bringing to a boil and soaking alternately. I boil whenever I feel like it and soak it if I don’t want to actively tend it at all. They work themselves out in about a week, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how actively you change the waters and boil. I think a laid back approach like this makes it un-stressful and thus practical for making food! Some planning is required too and I prefer larger batches so I don’t have to do it as often.
     
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    Hello,
    What a wonderful post!! The whole thing, I mean.
    Nancy’s photo reminds me of soda bread which I make.

    I use lye for cleaning clothes, as a ‘detergent’, sometimes soaking ivy in it for extra value and scent.
    Never used it in cooking but am aware of its use to optimize corn/maze qualities.

    Bicarbs, I know it’s a side issue, it costs an arm and a leg to purchase as a grocery item, between 3 and 7 euros for very small quantities, not even 1/2 kg
    I discovered, as an innocent, that I could buy 25kg sacks of it for less than 20 euros, as an animal feed supplement.
    I have the space to store sacks of useful stuff in bins and to share with friends and neighbours.
    They call to ask for 1kg of that white powder, haha.

    When I bought the bicarbs in small quantities, I didn’t use it much.
    Now it’s used for clothes washing, washing dishes, leaves glasses sparkling, removing moss from the roof, as a dry hair wash, exfoliation for better skin health, toothpaste, around the house to discourage all kinds of bugs like fleas etc, they don’t like the ph, on the kitties also for bugs, in the fridge as a deodorant, and of course in the kitchen, soaking dried pulses to shorten cooking time but rinse well otherwise there is a frothy volcanic reaction when heated, beware.
    SODA Bread, it’s delicious and dead quick to prepare.
    I welcome recipe suggestions, not to hog the post.

    It’s getting decidedly nippy, I’m outside with a suggestion of sun but moving is a good idea.
    Blessings
    M-H
     
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    Long time soap maker here. This is a cut and paste from Dr. Dunn, who wrote the Scientific Soapmaking book (he's a chemistry professor who uses soap making to teach his students chemistry). Highly recommend his books. Short answer, no.

    Kevin Dunn I'll weigh in on two points here. As many have pointed out, natural does not mean good or safe. We have been hurt and killed by nature since the dawn of time. Tornados, rattlesnakes, gizzly bears, and hemlock are all natural. The dictionary defines "natural" with several meanings, but none of them equal "good" or "safe." Can you find sodium hydroxide lying around without any human intervention in making it? No. The closest you can come is "trona," the mineral from which baking soda and washing soda are made (by humans). There is no official governmentally sanctioned definition of "natural" as used in commerce. Therefore, anyone can legally claim that any product is natural. The word just doesn't mean what people want it to mean.

    Kevin Dunn The second point is that the active ingredient in wood ashes is potassium carbonate. If you burn sea plants, you get sodium carbonate. Yes, you can make soap with either of these, but for a hard bar soap, you want sodium hydroxide. The traditional way to get the hydroxide is to react wood ashes with lime (calcium hydroxide). My book, Caveman Chemistry documents the history of the alkali industry, and has several projects on making alkali from ashes and lime. Reacting wood ash with calcium hydroxide produces potassium hydroxide. To get sodium soap from potassium hydroxide, you add salt once the cook is done. Sodium soaps are less soluble than potassium soaps, so they float to the top, where you can skim them off. Making soap from wood ashes is a challenging, but rewarding project. It is part of the "Level 3 (master)" certification for the HSCG.

    Kevin Dunn 1000 pounds of wood leaves about 5 pounds of ash, from which about 1 pound of potash (potassium carbonate) can be extracted.
     
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    Jennifer Kleffner wrote:1000 pounds of wood leaves about 5 pounds of ash, from which about 1 pound of potash (potassium carbonate) can be extracted.


    This sounds like it's supposed to put us off, but 1000 pounds is a small tree that can be regrown in a few years.
     
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    Jennifer Kleffner wrote:Long time soap maker here. This is a cut and paste from Dr. Dunn, who wrote the Scientific Soapmaking book (he's a chemistry professor who uses soap making to teach his students chemistry). Highly recommend his books. Short answer, no.


    What was the question?

    Kevin Dunn I'll weigh in on two points here. As many have pointed out, natural does not mean good or safe. We have been hurt and killed by nature since the dawn of time. Tornados, rattlesnakes, gizzly bears, and hemlock are all natural. The dictionary defines "natural" with several meanings, but none of them equal "good" or "safe." Can you find sodium hydroxide lying around without any human intervention in making it? No. The closest you can come is "trona," the mineral from which baking soda and washing soda are made (by humans). There is no official governmentally sanctioned definition of "natural" as used in commerce. Therefore, anyone can legally claim that any product is natural. The word just doesn't mean what people want it to mean.

    Kevin Dunn The second point is that the active ingredient in wood ashes is potassium carbonate. If you burn sea plants, you get sodium carbonate. Yes, you can make soap with either of these, but for a hard bar soap, you want sodium hydroxide. The traditional way to get the hydroxide is to react wood ashes with lime (calcium hydroxide). My book, Caveman Chemistry documents the history of the alkali industry, and has several projects on making alkali from ashes and lime. Reacting wood ash with calcium hydroxide produces potassium hydroxide. To get sodium soap from potassium hydroxide, you add salt once the cook is done. Sodium soaps are less soluble than potassium soaps, so they float to the top, where you can skim them off. Making soap from wood ashes is a challenging, but rewarding project. It is part of the "Level 3 (master)" certification for the HSCG.

    Kevin Dunn 1000 pounds of wood leaves about 5 pounds of ash, from which about 1 pound of potash (potassium carbonate) can be extracted.



    I can’t quite figure out what is going on in this post🤷🏻‍♀️

    Are these quotes from Kevin Dunn? And with regard to what?

    His book looks interesting but taken out of context I can make nothing of it.

    Quarter century of soapmaking😊

    Thanks
     
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    Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. When you heat sodium bicarbonate above 212 deg F for an extended period of time, 2NaHCO3 -> Na2CO3 + CO2 + H2O;   Na2CO3 is not lye, it is commonly referred to as soda ash. Lye is the common name sodium hydroxide. Lye is a much stronger alkaline than soda ash, however, soda ash is a strong alkaline as well. Baking sodium bicarbonate is complete when you have lost approx 1/3 of the weight you started with. The reaction does not occur until the temp is above 176 deg F, and the higher the temp, the faster the reaction. The lye produced from wood ash is actually a complex mixture of soluble sodium, magnesium and potassium hydroxide salts, sodium hydroxide being the strongest alkali. The pH of the solution for is what counts, whether it is from soda ash or lye. For ramen noodles, for example, in 35 g of water, add 0.75 g of baked sodium bicarbonate. Some recipes include adding potassium carbonate, as well. The pH of the solution should be at least 11.6 or higher for ramen noodles. Pretzel water pH needs to be around 9.0, according to one recipe I found online. For pretzels, only the surface needs to be affected but in noodles, there is a chemical reaction with the proteins in the flour that needs to occur and needs a high pH. In fact, in ramen, sodium carbonate causes the noodles to soften whereas potassium carbonate causes the noodles to stiffen. Using both potash (potassium carbonate) and soda ash (sodium carbonate) gets the proper texture, I guess.

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