How to overcome the weeds without the black tarp method? What would Sepp Holzer do?

Candace Williams wrote:But the statement, "what would Sepp Holzer do?"

I am not familiar with Sepp and animals though what I feel Sepp would do ... I have given this a lot of thought.

I feel Sepp would just let the weeds grow.  That is what I have been doing this year.  It is remarkable that the weeds have taken care of themselves.  I do pull a few on the paths where I walk in Zone 1.

At one time in early summer, there was a lot of a plant I call spurge.  I am not sure that is what it is. It was all over the place so I decided not to pull it up because it leaves a sticky residue on my hands.  I noticed recently that it is all gone, except one plant.  Either something ate it or it did not like the heat.

I have the same experience with the burr clover that I hate so much.  For several years I pulled up several bags full of burr clover.  I finally said that there was just too much to pull up.  It is still here but I have to really look hard to find it.

I have read that Sepp said to plant weeds for the animals.  This is because some weeds act as a wormer.

Bravo, Anne. Weeds make themselves obsolete over time.

Don't overlook a late planting of winter rye as a smother crop.  You may get a crop going if you broadcast rye onto the soil and then mow it really tight about 2 weeks before your first frost.  That rye should germinate and continue to grow until the temps stay below 32.  In the spring, that rye will come on so fast, it'll choke out most of your nitrogen using warm season weeds.  Once you see a seed head, you can mow it off and plant into it.  

Another idea would be to broadcast barley in spring once the soil begins to thaw.  I've spread barley on frozen ground in well establish white clover and gotten excellent stands.  That combo, along with chicory holds down weeds fairly well.  My main crop there was clover though.  The barley was just to hold off warm season grasses.  

Upon reflection, I feel that Sepp might get philosophical and suggest that the "weeds," which were only an issue because that's not what we wanted to grow there, had a job to do in that space.

I feel perhaps he might speculate as to the most likely job needing doing in the space from the species assembled, and perhaps do something to make their work happen faster, or to obviate it, like subsoiling a space being overtaken by breakers-up of hardpan.

Or if he had time, perhaps he would drop some daikon and mangelwurtzel into stick-poked holes and set the pigs on the patch in a few weeks.

Or perhaps he'd chop and drop the plants in question before they went to seed, sowing some crop pigs or other ravenous livestock like to eat that might also be allelopathic and fast-establishing, to again set the pigs loose on in a few weeks.

I feel you could probably break down various approaches he might take by the variables of how important the placement of what he wants is (if it's on a whim, he might rethink his plan, to go with what is already in place), observation and timely intervention (the chop-and-drop before plants go to seed, the sowing of a fast-establishing allelopathic grain and/or hardpan-destroying tubers that just happen to be candy to rooting pigs), and the designing of animal action into the labour, so that by the animals behaving as they naturally might, nobody has to actually lift a broadfork.

Of course, if he needed that weedy patch and he needed it yesterday, I feel he'd chop it and bury it in clean straw mulch. Individual tender shoots pushing up through the mulch would be irresistible to hungry livestock.

-CK

Christopher Shimanski wrote:Don't overlook a late planting of winter rye as a smother crop.  You may get a crop going if you broadcast rye onto the soil and then mow it really tight about 2 weeks before your first frost.  That rye should germinate and continue to grow until the temps stay below 32.  In the spring, that rye will come on so fast, it'll choke out most of your nitrogen using warm season weeds.  Once you see a seed head, you can mow it off and plant into it.    

Thanks for this reminder Christopher. I've been contemplating doing a larger scale rotation area for a little while, inspired by this thread but adapted to my climate and without the black plastic. At the moment I find that if I do succeed in clearing an area, the weeds move in faster  than the plants I want to grow. I may leave the rye for a season, and use the straw after seeding to mulch the area and plant through a la Fukuoka. I was thinking I was too late to plant this year, but we don't get hard frosts normally till end of November.  I'm hoping to plant straight into meadow turf, which is a tall order but we'll see.

I remember a quote from a Sepp discussion previously. He explained that he used pigs to till the earth and eat the weeds. Someone asked what they could do if they didn't have pigs. His answer: "Then you must do the pigs work".

He integrates his livestock into his landscape. He plants his fruit trees on slopes so that windfalls can roll down slope to the animals etc...

We have pigs on our land at the moment. They cleared a 20m by 20m area in a few weeks, down to weed free earth. They also turned up hundreds of stones, removing them would be a boon to cultivating that area in future.

Oy. My garden is 90’x30’. My first year here, tilled & weeded from a field of strongly established blue grass fescue. Very hard work. And very hard to keep up with the weeds. So much work & so bad that I’ve damaged my hands. So, I put down black tarps with the intention to kill the heavy duty weeds, till it again & mulch it heavily. Thoughts? Also, we just had a massive flood here & I plan to gather up all the piles of organic debris & use that to mulch down as well…

Welcome to permies, Gaurī !

I think that collecting up all the organic material for mulch, and any fall leaves in your area, will help you a lot. It will improve the soil which will make controlling weeds easier.

One trick I've read about is using a cutting style hoe every 12 to 14 days at least 4 times as this encourages the weed seeds to germinate and gets the weeds while they're very tiny. Tilling deeply, particularly with a rotary tiller, can damage the soil life, and move the upper layer of the soil down deeper where it's not as useful to you.

Also, it's good to identify what weeds you're seeing. Some weeds will re-grow from tiny bits of roots, so tilling can make more rather than less. Some weeds tell you things about your soil. Many weeds are edible and nutritious.

Temporary use of black tarp may be your only option while your hands are damaged. Just be aware that when they start to break down, they leave micro-plastic in your soil, so you want to keep your use short and garbage any tarps that are breaking down.

Thank you Jay! Thank you for the welcome & so appreciative for all your suggestions & info.🍁
So this is the end of my first year gardening in NC. Many weeds are the same as up north in NY & NJ. But many are different, as are the insect pests. I’m learning & fast! I’m also learning about which of these NC weeds are edible. Any good websites fir this?
I plan to hoe out my berry patch & mulch that first, then my herb garden. My big garden will be last. Flower patches also need to be done.
I only use the tarps for 3-4 weeks until the heavy duty weeds are killed off & it’s easier to manage for me. I’m working this garden myself! I plan to use all the refuse that was washed up in the last big storm - branches, logs, leaves, mud, all very rich for the garden is my guess.
I do understand that using a tiller is a mixed blessing. But it’s a big plot & I’m breaking through new ground so it’s just a reality for me.
Once all is mulched I hope to do some fall planting.
Currently I’m collecting, husking, cleaning & curing the abundant black walnuts on our land. I watched tons of videos to get the easiest methods but is this a labor of love! ♥️

Ooops sorry for the double post.
And any good resources for identifying NC weeds? Which are edible? I’ve searched online but didn’t find what I needed

Gaurī Rasp wrote:Ooops sorry for the double post.
And any good resources for identifying NC weeds? Which are edible? I’ve searched online but didn’t find what I needed

Gaurī, double posts happens to all of us occasionally. Please just hit the "Report!" button and say "double post" and a helpful staff member will come along a disappear the duplicate. (Please report spam or other nasty things if you happen to see them, as we deal with those issues also.)

Ah... weeds we can eat. There are suggestions all over permies particularly in the kitchen forum - https://permies.com/c/kitchen
and in the growies forum - https://permies.com/c/growies

This book - https://permies.com/wiki/51847/Wild-Wisdom-Weeds-Essential-Plants - might have some ideas for you to get started

At the top of the screen is a line you can type into that says "search threads and posts" and sticking in "edible weeds" will likely get you some more ideas.

One key thing I would do if you think you found something edible, is to search permies and the internet for "plants that look like -----" as that may help confirm your ID.
If you're still not sure, if you go to the regional forum - https://permies.com/c/3 and ask for help from permies in your region, they may have some idea if the weed is common to your area.

A second key thing is to always start by tasting a very small bit. Some foods are only safe prepared certain ways, or at certain times of the year (like rhubarb is a spring crop only due to oxalates that build up as summer approaches.) However, taste is normally our first clue!

Good luck and happy weed hunting!

Jay thank you again…so much great info / resources / wisdom….I so appreciate it!
Closing up this year’s garden, though the eggplant is still going strong as are my raspberries!

I really like the cover crop idea.  If it was me and there was a lot of bare soil I would plant a winter annual high diversity cover crop mix in the fall let it grow over winter and through the spring then around late spring or around the time of average last frost I would broadcast a summer annual mix into the standing cover crop and either crimp (with a foot crimper), graze with livestock or mow the standing mature winter annual mix onto the seeds of the summer annual mix. Planting new cover crops every spring and fall in this method would eventually, maybe after 2 or 3 years,  help to build soil and make it hospitable for more useful plants and would most likely outcompete most of the weeds.

This method allows you to grow your own mulch instead of importing it and is relatively cost effective and not very labor intensive.

Gaurī Rasp wrote:
Currently I’m collecting, husking, cleaning & curing the abundant black walnuts on our land. I watched tons of videos to get the easiest methods but is this a labor of love! ♥️

    Gaurī, welcome to the forums! I just noticed your mention of black walnuts. The husks can be very good mulch/fertilizer. They do great things for soil. The concern with them is, of course, juglone. But the most juglone produced by the black walnut tree gets exuded by the roots, and that is where most of the alleopathic effect comes from. You may want to use the hulls only around non-juglone-sensitive plants, or you may want to do some tests, but since you’re already processing black walnuts, I figured I would tell you about the value of the hulls.

Thank you Jay, Scott, Myron & Travis! I’m so happy to be here getting all this great information.
I just expanded the garden to approx 100’x35’ and again because I badly damaged my hands creating/tending this garden space in the field, I had to use a Toro tiller to clean it up fir next season. Weeds were pretty out of control. Now I’m raking out roots & then heavily mulching w flood debris, leaves, cedar mulch & magnolia tree mulch. I’m going to see about finding seed for a low growing cover crop…maybe clover. The ubiquitous grasses here are strong w tough deep roots…hard to remove.
I also plan to get the soil tested. Is Cornell best?

Myron, thank you re: the info on using black walnut hulls in the garden. I threw most of them around the edge of the garden which gets built up w all the weeds I pull & it all composts down.
Now I’m on to cracking the walnuts…the first one I tried wouldn’t even open w a small sledge hammer! Yikes! Another foraging labor of love!

Gaurī Rasp wrote:Myron, thank you re: the info on using black walnut hulls in the garden. I threw most of them around the edge of the garden which gets built up w all the weeds I pull & it all composts down.
Now I’m on to cracking the walnuts…the first one I tried wouldn’t even open w a small sledge hammer! Yikes! Another foraging labor of love!

The way of opening walnuts that I prefer, is to take two walnuts in your hand, side by side, with the ridge of one against the ridge of the other, and then squeeze, hard. The shells will slide off each other surprisingly easily.

Stacy Witscher wrote:I also use different strategies for different weeds. I reserve black tarping for things like bindweed that at least for me have been resistant to other methods. And even then I work on a small area at a time. Most areas I prefer cardboard and mulch.

Stacy, in your experience, how long does a tarp need to be on to slow or dissuade bindweed? I have a bindweed and thistle-dense area that I tarped in September. I'm torn between leaving it on for another year or removing it and sheet mulching with cardboard and woodchips as others have suggested.

This is a lovely visual to look at the composition of weeds and how they can change based on the amount of tillage you do/or don't do! This is taken from a new excerpt of our GMC, which is live to watch now on YouTube and it's a pretty fascinating short glimpse into the subject.



Here is the link to watch the new clip of the Garden Master Course and learn more about this, if interested.

I put down cardboard,then cut holes to put the plants in. Kills the weeds then breaks down into good dirt. And it's free

I have an organic garden bed unplanted and overgrown with grass and weeds this year. I need to reset it and am needing advice for a safe tarp solution to use over the Minnesota winter to come. I would love advice for an environmentally safe cover to help in getting this mess under control. All I see are ads for products but no advice for the right product to use to ensure the integrity of the soil. Please help with your wisdom!

Amanda, welcome to the forum!

There are several safe methods that can be used to suppress grass and weeds so that a spring garden can happen.

Some folks resort to using cardboard with 6" to 12" of wood chips or mulch over the cardboard.

There are also some folks who feel that don't want to use the cardboard so these folks just use the 6" to 12" of woodchips and mulch.

The idea behind the 6" to 12" of wood chips and mulch is to block any chance of sunlight getting to that area.