Trying to understand…

Tereza Okava wrote:
I'm stuck here. You are putting in the stove AND THE FIREWOOD for the winter yourself? Without her help?

I remember as a kid, every weekend in the summer was firewood duty. I may not have been running the chainsaw at age 6 but I was put to work like everyone else. Is this not a normal group effort? Could you say, honey, gas is likely to be a total disaster this year, can we work on getting this stove and wood in ASAP before the SNOW!!! and I swear I'll help you with the walls later?
Maybe my house is different, we do all the heavy work together, whether it's construction, cleaning, pouring concrete, turning over garden beds or making pasta. I just assume everyone else does it the same way.... it's no fun if you're doing all the donkey work yourself.

Yes you are correct, I’ve done the whole install myself, have cut split, dried, and relocated a cord of firewood by myself. I do almost all the planting, maintenance and processing from the garden (and foraging) alone. I do most of the chicken work alone. Built a new coop alone. And I’m cutting more wood every chance I get. I will probably ask for some help from her at least to move some wood around. If I would have done like you said and asked for her help right away and promised to help her paint later maybe she would have went for that. But I work a standard 7-3 job Monday-Friday. I work my ass off at home after work and as much as possible on the weekends. She has a totally different schedule. Shes at home alone for a few hours midday, then coaches sports for a few hours in the afternoon. Plus games a couple days a week in the evenings and tournaments on some weekends. Now money is very tight so she’s considering getting a part time job on the weekends…

So, if I wait around for her to have time to help me nothing will ever get done. Plus she likes to relax, travel and have fun so there goes another large percentage of her available work time. Basically, I bust my ass alone as much as possible because I think if I dont, nothing will ever change.

I dont want to make her sound lazy because she does work 2 part time jobs and does a lot of the dishes and laundry. And my attitude and work ethic the last couple years has pushed her away from wanting to get more involved with these sorts of things. We’re working on our communication and attitudes towards eachother. And we’re compromising and trying to make more time for eachother. She thinks that means nice fun things though where I would rather do the work together and call that “us time”.

Its a struggle. I honestly don’t understand how there are so many households with both parents working full time, with multiple children. I guess maybe I do understand: many of them eat junk, dont sleep enough, survive on caffeine, raise crappy children and get divorced.

It is interesting though that you assume most couples/families do everything together because that is not at all what I’ve grown up witnessesing. Im used to women doing housework, men making money and doing all the outside work and kids running around costing money. Women hate their husbands because they dont feel prioritized and men hate their wives because they never help with anything outside and cook less and less frequently. I know that isnt healthy but it is what I’ve always seen for the most part.

Jordan Holland wrote:



Here where I live, it would be EXTREMELY rare to see a woman bring firewood into the house or often even put it in the stove, let alone harvest it. The old "man job/woman job" thing is still very strong here. "Donkey work" is generally for men. You just made me laugh to imagine my mother helping my father cut firewood. I think she would sit and complain as she froze to death before she would deal with firewood, lol. She also has no sense of urgency or priority. She will want to go on a vacation or do some entertainment at the most inappropriate time, and dad will tell her he has to get something done before "X." She'll sulk about it, but certainly not help get it done quicker. As a result of a lifetime of this, she has virtually no idea how hard some "man work" is, and I feel she often greatly under-appreciates how much my father does for her, especially when it comes not to things he does essential to running the household, but when it comes to her non-essential cosmetic projects that seem so simple to her just standing there giving directions. She places a very high value on her labor, like cleaning the house, and complains profusely about lack of help from him. I grew up cutting firewood with him, and cleaning the house with her. In my opinion, cutting firewood is about 25 times more work. That is just how it is here.

This is exactly the lifestyle I grew up with and saw/still see on a daily basis. I dont even know why most couples are married. I think it’s because “its just what you do”. They certainly disdain eachother, do nothing together and have little in common. My wife and I are trying to not take that route but she comes from a city family who essentially didnt do hard work and I came from the above description. We’re trying to compromise and meet in the middle.

Carla Burke wrote:I think we all kinda have our own brand of crazy. For example, I was the girl who would rather be outside cutting, hauling, splitting and stacking firewood, with my dad & brothers, instead of being inside (where the temps were controlled), cooking, cleaning, canning, sewing, etc, with my mom or stepmom, though I was still required to do the 'girl stuff', far more often than I was happy about. I have spent winters, both as a kid and as an adult, desperately trying to get/ keep the indoor temps above freezing - and didn't always succeed. I really do see you, Brody. But, ahem, I can neither confirm, nor deny either your sanity or your wife's, lol!

Very interesting how this has all played out! My mom was like you. She loved splitting firewood and doing hard work. But my dad made the money and wanted warm meals and a mother at home for us kids. So my mom got turned into a housewife.

Dc Stewart wrote:Is there any input from the wife regarding the posts and responses on this thread? I'm assuming she's aware that her mental state is being showcased for discussion and amateur psychoanalysis on a public internet forum.

Absolutely not. Ive discussed our relationship difficulties on here before and not only told her about it but encouraged her to read it because I thought it would be helpful for her/us. She refused repeatedly.

So no, she doesn’t know I’m on here essentially getting free counseling from strangers!

Jan White wrote:This might be a mental health thing for your wife. You talk about food, shelter, etc. as being priorities and everything else coming after. Well, it sounds like basic physiological needs are already met and you're just trying to improve things now. If you look at Maslow's heirarchy of needs, you might be stuck on the bottom couple tiers while your wife is trying to fulfill some of her higher up needs. My husband and I live in a 12 x16' house. In order to not feel like I was living in a dark box, I made sure we had high ceilings and lots of windows. We lived in a basement suite for five years and my mental health was pretty bad at times, despite being warm, properly fed, etc. I need windows. Maybe your wife needs fresh paint.

Are all these projects you're so busy with things that she wants or are they things you want? You say you're doing them to improve things for both of you, but maybe some of them are things she doesn't  care about. My husband does this to me sometimes. He works ridiculous hours and is super stressed at his job, and this has been going on for years. Last year, he took his vacation time and spent almost every minute of the day working on getting our road to the point we wouldn't need to walk in at times over the winter. While he was doing that, I was busy with my existing projects in the garden. The first day he was out, he came back to the house at lunchtime and  was super pissed I didn't have lunch waiting for him. I was confused. "You never mentioned lunch. Why would you think I'd have lunch for you? I've been in the garden all morning." He figured that since he was doing a project that benefited both of us, I would naturally drop what I was doing to help him out in any way I could. Obviously, to him, that meant maximizing the time he could spend on the bobcat by, for example, making sure there was lunch waiting for him. I'd been trying to talk him out of his plan for over a month. I wanted him to take some actual vacation time - like go dirt biking or out drinking with buddies or even just get some sleep for a change.  Hey, maybe I'd even get to spend some time with him! I really didn't care if we spent another winter walking in if it meant he could actually take a break. He was so focused on what he'd decided was OUR top priority, that he didn't even register that it was pretty far down the list for me, even though I'd been trying to talk him out of it.

You obviously love your wife, but you also sound pretty contemptuous of and lacking respect for her at times. There's no way she's not picking up on that, and who knows how that's affecting her.

You’re spot on with a lot of this. I literally just told her last night that I seem to be stuck in the bottom level of that hierarchy and that many people seem to be trying to get to the top. Thing is, though we may have our needs met at this second, its all ticky tacky, unsustainable, unreliable and uncontrollable. I never used to see that and many people still dont. They think “im warm and fed right now so what else to I need to FEEL good about life?” I think “Im warm and fed right now but that’s essentially luck and luck looks like it may run out at any moment. So maybe I ought to try to take care of myself a little and stop relying on strangers across the globe for me to be ignorant of life’s essentials”.  I dont think humans legitimately have really progressed past the bottom rung on that ladder, we just think we have because we’re ignoring most facts of life.

I already feel good about our air, water and food situation. Warmth/shelter is my priority now. Sleep should probably be up there too. Once those things are taken care of, we will probably have children and start teaching them how to be alive. Nowhere in that scenario does a higher rung on that hierarchy come into play. Now it our children catch on and dont run off undoing all our hard work and insisting on starting from scratch (or worse) on their own, maybe they will be able to reach step 2 on that hypothetical ladder.

And yes, I have been focusing on what I think our needs are. And she has told me she has different needs. But as far as I can tell, shes a human and we all have the exact same needs and the way those needs are being met is as thin as a membrane. She would love to go on a vacation (and does most years with or without me). She would love to just watch movies and cuddle every day. But im alive and need to use my body. I need to do work and believe thats why we have bodies, to do work and maintain the opportunity for us to be able to do work. The only time relaxing is even enjoyable for me is after I’m exhausted from all the work!

Jan White wrote:This might be a mental health thing for your wife. You talk about food, shelter, etc. as being priorities and everything else coming after. Well, it sounds like basic physiological needs are already met and you're just trying to improve things now. If you look at Maslow's heirarchy of needs, you might be stuck on the bottom couple tiers while your wife is trying to fulfill some of her higher up needs. My husband and I live in a 12 x16' house. In order to not feel like I was living in a dark box, I made sure we had high ceilings and lots of windows. We lived in a basement suite for five years and my mental health was pretty bad at times, despite being warm, properly fed, etc. I need windows. Maybe your wife needs fresh paint.

Are all these projects you're so busy with things that she wants or are they things you want? You say you're doing them to improve things for both of you, but maybe some of them are things she doesn't  care about. My husband does this to me sometimes. He works ridiculous hours and is super stressed at his job, and this has been going on for years. Last year, he took his vacation time and spent almost every minute of the day working on getting our road to the point we wouldn't need to walk in at times over the winter. While he was doing that, I was busy with my existing projects in the garden. The first day he was out, he came back to the house at lunchtime and  was super pissed I didn't have lunch waiting for him. I was confused. "You never mentioned lunch. Why would you think I'd have lunch for you? I've been in the garden all morning." He figured that since he was doing a project that benefited both of us, I would naturally drop what I was doing to help him out in any way I could. Obviously, to him, that meant maximizing the time he could spend on the bobcat by, for example, making sure there was lunch waiting for him. I'd been trying to talk him out of his plan for over a month. I wanted him to take some actual vacation time - like go dirt biking or out drinking with buddies or even just get some sleep for a change.  Hey, maybe I'd even get to spend some time with him! I really didn't care if we spent another winter walking in if it meant he could actually take a break. He was so focused on what he'd decided was OUR top priority, that he didn't even register that it was pretty far down the list for me, even though I'd been trying to talk him out of it.

You obviously love your wife, but you also sound pretty contemptuous of and lacking respect for her at times. There's no way she's not picking up on that, and who knows how that's affecting her.

Another thing you mentioned is her mental health. She found out several years ago (at age 25) that she had premenopausal hormone levels. This is likely due to just being a “normal” woman in the US. A few generations of shitty food, shitty lifestyle and birth control pills has wreaked havoc on a lot of our bodies. Shes aware of that and has been taking progesterone which is making a noticeable difference.

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:
Maybe this subject needs more research to be sure. But I can give my own personal opinion.
I am a woman. But from my early childhood I was taught: the looks are not the most important! Things (like a house, clothes, furniture) need to be strong, durable and most of all useful. People need to be reliable, their 'yes' meaning 'yes' and their 'no' meaning 'no'. It's important to have (good quality) food and clothes and a roof over your head, and to pay your bills.
This is still how I feel about it.
I think many people are influenced by modern media, ads and magazines, telling then that looks are important ... (both men and women, young and old).

It sounds to me like your parents had their heads on straight! I dont think my wife, or really many people our age were taught any of those things. I was somewhat, and came to that realization partly on my own. Convenience and modern life has sucked a lot of those values out of people. Unfortunately, they are all still true and those who are unaware of that are probably either suffering now or will be in the future!

Hi Brody, you said that people can survive for a while if their emotional needs are not met as long as their physical needs are met. That is correct but only to a point. If you have children and focus all your energy on fulfilling their physical needs and ignore their emotional needs, there are long term emotional AND physical consequences. Even including death.

This has been documented especially in orphanages, where the term "failure to thrive" was first coined. In an orphanage, infants were regularly fed, changed, and kept warm. Their physical needs were met in every way. But there were so many children that the caretakers never took the time to cuddle and talk with the children. Many of the children stopped gaining weight, they did not grow, and many died. They received all the physical needs on the bottom tier of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (mentioned in a previous post) but that was not enough to keep them alive.

There needs to be a balance of physical and emotional needs met. And it needs to be done daily. It's a balancing act and it is difficult especially when we tend to focus on one side. But to put physical or emotional needs as one being more important than the other is false and detrimental. They are both equally important and necessary.

Let me pose this thought to consider- When you take care of the physical chores that need to be done, no matter how tired and sore you are at the end of the day, do you feel satisfied by the work you have done? If yes, I would propose that you are meeting (at least some of) your emotional needs AND physical needs simultaneously.

If your wife feels the need to paint, that fulfills some emotional need in her as well. This is where a good conversation or help from a counselor can assist in identifying the emotional and physical needs that are being unmet and help partners discover healthy ways to meet those needs that don't hurt the other person.

As I'm reading all your previous posts in this thread, I get the impression that while you say you want to understand, you actually want her to change her mind and agree with you, that your position is the superior or correct position. I know it helps me to be more understanding when I try to not put a value judgement on other people's points of view (ie who has the more worthwhile or superior position.) The exception for me are moral questions but painting versus chopping firewood does not seem like it should be a moral issue. It is more an issue of priorities and there isn't a black and white answer to what priorities should take place before others. I can come up with ten reasons I should take out the trash first and ten more reasons I should write in my journal first and ten more reasons why I should plan my garden first and so on and so on.

Brody, you've got a good point. I assume other people have what I have, because I don't see too many other people. I saw enough disrespect and dysfunction growing up and got the hell out of there ASAP (sorry to say, I think you described me when you said about kids "run off undoing all our hard work and insisting on starting from scratch (or worse) on their own").
Not to say you'll drive your kids away, that was my folks, not yours. And not to say that splitting work by gender necessarily means dysfunction/disrespect, I know it works for some people.
But the way the lines split in my family I was pretty sure by age 16 that I wanted nothing to do with that kind of system and the resentment it bred, and would instead pursue something better for myself (and for my own kids). I just can't imagine having a relationship in which I couldn't ask for help, feel like an equal player, or assume that we were working toward the same goals.

Ya, this is why I'm Single LOL
The longest "relationship" I had was 4yrs & every one since lasts about 12 mos.
I've realized in the last 3yrs of being 100% Solo (no friends, family, partner), I'm finally content.
No drama, disagreements, heartache etc.

So I guess I'm saying, be happy you have a partner because that's what you wanted.
You also have traits your partner doesn't innerstand.

Maybe go do something you enjoy while she's following her bliss so you both keep your vibrations at the highest frequency possible (for the overall Harmony).
Try to stay in a place of Love, Gratitude, Acceptance.
October & November are going to be a "trial" for Us All...........
but we've got this if we stay in Compassion & watch our Speech.

Good Luck Brother

[quote=Jenny Wright] Hi Brody, you said that people can survive for a while if their emotional needs are not met as long as their physical needs are met. That is correct but only to a point. If you have children and focus all your energy on fulfilling their physical needs and ignore their emotional needs, there are long term emotional AND physical consequences. Even including death.

This has been documented especially in orphanages, where the term "failure to thrive" was first coined. In an orphanage, infants were regularly fed, changed, and kept warm. Their physical needs were met in every way. But there were so many children that the caretakers never took the time to cuddle and talk with the children. Many of the children stopped gaining weight, they did not grow, and many died. They received all the physical needs on the bottom tier of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (mentioned in a previous post) but that was not enough to keep them alive.

There needs to be a balance of physical and emotional needs met. And it needs to be done daily. It's a balancing act and it is difficult especially when we tend to focus on one side. But to put physical or emotional needs as one being more important than the other is false and detrimental. They are both equally important and necessary.

Let me pose this thought to consider- When you take care of the physical chores that need to be done, no matter how tired and sore you are at the end of the day, do you feel satisfied by the work you have done? If yes, I would propose that you are meeting (at least some of) your emotional needs AND physical needs simultaneously.

If your wife feels the need to paint, that fulfills some emotional need in her as well. This is where a good conversation or help from a counselor can assist in identifying the emotional and physical needs that are being unmet and help partners discover healthy ways to meet those needs that don't hurt the other person.

As I'm reading all your previous posts in this thread, I get the impression that while you say you want to understand, you actually want her to change her mind and agree with you, that your position is the superior or correct position. I know it helps me to be more understanding when I try to not put a value judgement on other people's points of view (ie who has the more worthwhile or superior position.) The exception for me are moral questions but painting versus chopping firewood does not seem like it should be a moral issue. It is more an issue of priorities and there isn't a black and white answer to what priorities should take place before others. I can come up with ten reasons I should take out the trash first and ten more reasons I should write in my journal first and ten more reasons why I should plan my garden first and so on and so on. [/quote]

I understand what you’re saying and you are right to an extent. I do believe that some things are black and white, in a certain context, but not overall. What I mean is, I believe in right and wrong if depending on the goal in mind. If theres no goal in mind, then there cant be a right way to get there. So, for example, my goal is to be warm this winter and not have to worry about it on a daily basis, then getting this stove installed is 100% more important than the color of some walls, or how the wall colors make me feel. But if my goal is feeling nice right now, then of course installing a wood stove doesnt make any sense at all. I am a very forward thinking person (maybe too much) and I feel like my wife is very focused on her feelings at this very moment, not forward thinking at all. So, its like we have different goals and different ways of thinking.

In your example of the orphans, this makes sense to me because (and maybe only for this reason) children are essentially helpless and cannot do anything to increase their chances of survival besides screaming. Once your an adult, so long as you aren’t disabled, I feel like a main priority should be increasing your own chances of survival. When a child has its physical needs met, its time to focus on step 2 in the needs hierarchy. But how many adults have actually legitimately accomplished step 1? Probably some permies have, probably many indigenous peoples have, and probably some mountain men and feral people have. But the vast majority of civilization is barely hanging on by the thinnest thread and they dont even realize it. So all the while they’re trying to work up the hierarchy the bottom step is eroding and crumbling beneath them. A castle built on sand with some ignorant people standing on top reaching for the stars (or mars).

Im trying to make a solid foundation that can support not only my own path up but my wifes, my future children and our community.

You say physical and emotional needs are equally important, and maybe so. The way I look at it is more like primary and secondary (my wife hates this). Physical needs seem primarily to me and emotional needs seem secondary. This is because without your physical needs met you will not have the opportunity for emotions. When physical needs are met but emotional needs are not, you will survive. You wont thrive and things will be imbalanced, but you will at least be alive and therefore can work on getting your emotional needs met. I dont see how it can work the other way around. I feel like a lot of people are trying to thrive when their survival is at stake and they dont even realize it.

I agree that painting may fill an emotional need for my wife, but honestly feel like without me, she would be screwed. I think she knows this as well. Even her family knows this. Her dad has told me multiple times that if shit hits the fan he’s coming to live with us because he knows I can keep us alive, something they do not know how to do. But until shit hits the fan, they will continue trying to thrive while standing on a crumbling foundation. Seems silly to me.

I am trying to understand how people can think like this and convince themselves it makes sense. But I do think its silly and that I have, not a superior, but an primary position. I guess I just feel like shes not at all concerned with what I consider primary needs and is focused on what I consider secondary needs. And I would probably be fine with that if she at least thanked me and acknowledged that what I’m doing is important. But she just wants more from me and doesnt help me or herself meet me those needs. If we could work together to solidify our physical needs together then we could move on to emotional needs together. But so far I’ve been doing all the physical stuff and shes an emotional wreck (actually getting somewhat more reasonable now that shes taking progesterone).

I even very carefully proposed to her last night that we work together to get some more firewood done and a few more outside things done asap and then I’ll help her paint all friggin winter. She said she doesnt want to wait for her stuff to get done just like I dont want to wait for  my stuff to get done. I asked her what she means by “my stuff” because having cooked meals, a functional house and property, and a reliable heat source for winter seems an awful lot like it should be considered “OUR stuff”. She said she didn’t want to argue so we got nowhere. About an hour later she was complaining about all the painting she still “has to do”…

Tereza Okava wrote:Brody, you've got a good point. I assume other people have what I have, because I don't see too many other people. I saw enough disrespect and dysfunction growing up and got the hell out of there ASAP (sorry to say, I think you described me when you said about kids "run off undoing all our hard work and insisting on starting from scratch (or worse) on their own").
Not to say you'll drive your kids away, that was my folks, not yours. And not to say that splitting work by gender necessarily means dysfunction/disrespect, I know it works for some people.
But the way the lines split in my family I was pretty sure by age 16 that I wanted nothing to do with that kind of system and the resentment it bred, and would instead pursue something better for myself (and for my own kids). I just can't imagine having a relationship in which I couldn't ask for help, feel like an equal player, or assume that we were working toward the same goals.

I agree 100%. I knew as a young child that I didnt want to live like my parents. And my wife doesn’t want to live like them either. Its just hard because I work a steady 40 hour/week job and make good money with good benefits. But that means I’m away from home for 1/3 of my life. She works with kids (teaching and coaching) which is very unfortunately damn near volunteer work. She would make more money bagging groceries. But she loves kids and has a degree in early childhood education.

I think we would both love to work together more often and feel like we’re working towards the same goals but she’s just not all that logical. I try to explain that most of what I do revolves around weather. Certain things need to be done in certain seasons, in certain weather and for specific reasons. Its hard to work with but its just a fact of life. Shes much more inclined to do what she wants when she wants because she wants to. So when it’s a nice day and I want to do firewood she wants to go for a walk. Or when its a crappy day and I want to do housework she wants to watch a movie.

Ill admit, I put my feelings on the backburner for productivity’s sake and she rarely ever does that. Im not saying either of us are right, but striking that balance is a moving target and never seems easy!

Jennifer Sooke wrote:Ya, this is why I'm Single LOL
The longest "relationship" I had was 4yrs & every one since lasts about 12 mos.
I've realized in the last 3yrs of being 100% Solo (no friends, family, partner), I'm finally content.
No drama, disagreements, heartache etc.

So I guess I'm saying, be happy you have a partner because that's what you wanted.
You also have traits your partner doesn't innerstand.

Maybe go do something you enjoy while she's following her bliss so you both keep your vibrations at the highest frequency possible (for the overall Harmony).
Try to stay in a place of Love, Gratitude, Acceptance.
October & November are going to be a "trial" for Us All...........
but we've got this if we stay in Compassion & watch our Speech.

Good Luck Brother

Good lord, single life would be SO MUCH easier and cheaper. I have been through some shit to stay with this woman and I’ll scratch my head bald if I think about it too much. But I do love her, I do value her, I like working with her (the little bit that we do) and I want to grow old with her. And I’m determined enough to never give up.

You’re totally right about trying to stay in a place of love, gratitude and acceptance. We both lose that too frequently.

Your a Real Man
"How to know when it's love
How to stay when it's tough
How to know you're messin' up a good thing
And how to fix it 'fore it's too late
And yeah, I know a boy
Who gave up and got it wrong
If you really love a woman, you don't let her go
Yeah, I know a few things a man oughta know"

https://youtu.be/dqINSvm3Psw
~ Lainey Wilson Things A Man Oughta Know

I think you can drive yourself insane trying to understand why people think what they think. It's nice, and it can help tremendously to get along with people to truly understand how they think. But sometimes I think it's better for our own mental health to simply accept something without trying to understand it. Your mind appears to be logical like a computer. Hers seems to be more emotion based, at least at the moment. A computer cannot comprehend emotion. That's not to say your logic is without emotion entirely. It could be said that your logical decisions are based on the emotion that you feel a strong need for security, both for you and her. You seem to have a quite strong feeling that things are about to get very bad. That's not guaranteed. She could be right in this regard and living in the moment may end up being just fine. I believe you are right to want to be prepared, and that it is the wise thing to do. I don't think she sees it that way. I would focus less on SHTF arguments and more on earth friendly/saving money ones. Maybe make a deal that all the money saved on propane each year goes into a vacation fund or something. And since a vacation is for both of you, both of you need to get the wood in to save that money. This makes it not about your wants, but about something more concrete. For both of you.

Now that you describe her family, I'm starting to wonder if she has simply never had any true responsibility before. Was she raised to be their "little princess" who never needed to do any work? Who only lived her childhood doing what made her feel good? I hope not.

I hate to bring this up, but if doing so can prevent it possibly happening in the future, maybe it's worth it. This situation you describe has all the ingredients in my mind to very possibly end up with her cheating on you some day. I don't know her or you other than what you have said here, and I truly hope it never happens. I have seen it before. Man works full-time and pays bills, and works keeping up a place to live for both. Man focuses on physical things essential to life. Woman focuses on things that meet her emotional needs. Woman has part-time job that doesn't make much money, just meets her emotional needs. Over time they drift apart, maybe some resentment grows. Their work schedules keep them apart. One of the kids she coaches has a really nice father. After practice one evening, she comments how she "needs to go home and get the house painted." He says,

"I would have expected your husband to do that, especially with you being so busy helping these kids and all."

"Oh, he's probably too busy working on one of his little projects."

"I would think a good man would learn to make time for the projects of the woman he loves..."

"In his defense, I really do want to paint the house way too often."

"It doesn't matter if it was painted last week; if it's important to you, it should be important to him."

(Swoon)

I think you know how the rest goes. Whether right or wrong, people are going to try to fill their emotional needs. If she feels her emotional needs are not being met, especially if she sees it as your job as her husband to meet them, it opens the door for someone else to come along and take advantage. And there are predators lurking out there waiting to do it. To make matters worse, sometimes we are just selfish, and convince ourselves that our selfish desires are actually emotional needs. We try to justify our actions accordingly. It sounds like you really love her, and are truly willing to work for a good life with her. I hope you are able to resolve this.

Brody Ekberg wrote:She would love to just watch movies and cuddle every day. But im alive and need to use my body. I need to do work and believe thats why we have bodies, to do work and maintain the opportunity for us to be able to do work. The only time relaxing is even enjoyable for me is after I’m exhausted from all the work!

If only there were some activity that a married couple could do together that combined cuddling and using your body...

Jordan Holland wrote:Your mind appears to be logical like a computer. Hers seems to be more emotion based, at least at the moment. A computer cannot comprehend emotion. That's not to say your logic is without emotion entirely. It could be said that your logical decisions are based on the emotion that you feel a strong need for security, both for you and her.

I would focus less on SHTF arguments and more on earth friendly/saving money ones. Maybe make a deal that all the money saved on propane each year goes into a vacation fund or something. And since a vacation is for both of you, both of you need to get the wood in to save that money. This makes it not about your wants, but about something more concrete. For both of you.

Now that you describe her family, I'm starting to wonder if she has simply never had any true responsibility before. Was she raised to be their "little princess" who never needed to do any work? Who only lived her childhood doing what made her feel good? I hope not.

This situation you describe has all the ingredients in my mind to possibly end up with her cheating on you some day. I have seen it before. Man works full-time and pays bills, and works keeping up a place to live for both. Man focuses on physical things essential to life. Woman focuses on things that meet her emotional needs. Whether right or wrong, people are going to try to fill their emotional needs. If she feels her emotional needs are not being met, especially if she sees it as your job as her husband to meet them, it opens the door for someone else to come along and take advantage. And there are predators lurking out there waiting to do it. To make matters worse, sometimes we are just selfish, and convince ourselves that our selfish desires are actually emotional needs. We try to justify our actions accordingly. It sounds like you really love her, and are truly willing to work for a good life with her. I hope you are able to resolve this.

Your descriptions of our minds are perfect as far as I can tell!

Your idea of incorporating a vacation into the money saving strategy would likely help since she always wants a vacation. But then we never actually save any money, we just spend it elsewhere. I think if she spent less time online and watching what her friends do the desire for a vacation would probably dwindle, but thats a different topic… and im not opposed to vacations, it just gets less and less reasonable the more we work towards a sustainable lifestyle (go figure).

In a way, she was always kind of the princess, but not in the way you described. More because she was the only girl and because shes always been emotionally… difficult. But she had chores as a child and did them more reliably than her brothers. She also cleaned the house (voluntarily) even more than her parents. And she was caring for her younger cousins even while she was a young child herself. Also caring for her dying grandmother as a young child. And she has had jobs throughout most of her life. But they were tight on money when she grew up so now that she’s with me and we (used to) have money, she didn’t want to live like she was poor anymore. Ironically, now were heading in that direction! She did have borderline absent parents for years though as they were going to college and both working while she was running around largely unsupervised. Shes well aware of the effects her childhood has had on her. Dealing with those effects is the struggle now.

As far as her cheating on me goes, I’ve told her that I’m a pretty forgiving person and dont tend to hold grudges. But that if this ever were to happen I would cut her out of my life like a tumor and never give her a thought of a second chance. And that wasnt a threat like i was worried about it, because im not. She has had the opportunity more than once and turned it down and even told me about it when she could have kept it to herself. But you are right, people will get their needs met and she has made that known as well.

I think part of the problem is just the overall stress of the last few years (covid and politics), combined with some health issues on her part, which of course ate up a bunch of our money. And through all of that I was full steam ahead into my permaculture ideology. So it’s complicated! But we’ve talked about a lot of it and are aware of most of the issues, we just need to make some changes now and work through the damage that has been done.  

Jennifer Pearson wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:She would love to just watch movies and cuddle every day. But im alive and need to use my body. I need to do work and believe thats why we have bodies, to do work and maintain the opportunity for us to be able to do work. The only time relaxing is even enjoyable for me is after I’m exhausted from all the work!

If only there were some activity that a married couple could do together that combined cuddling and using your body...

Is that the answer? We just need more sex?

Thats a relatively easy fix haha

you know, it's not a bad place to start..... LOL

It sounds like you are making headway, and just being able to talk about this stuff is really hard work Brody, I know from experience it is awkward and a PITA. But it does sound like the more you talk about it, the more is going to get resolved.

Can I suggest something? She may be on to something with the vacation. My husband is the same way- will not vacation to save his life since he opened his own business. I love to travel, like crazy big trips, and he has never once come with me. I know he won't, so I don't push it any more. But we do take small trips together every few months. It sounds like you could use a vacation, maybe even just a weekend away. You can't carry the world by yourself forever, a break might be good for both of you to remember how much you actually really like and appreciate each other. Doesn't even have to be far, just a break from the routine, and she might be really surprised to see you put "the usual" on hold.

Tereza Okava wrote:you know, it's not a bad place to start..... LOL

It sounds like you are making headway, and just being able to talk about this stuff is really hard work Brody, I know from experience it is awkward and a PITA. But it does sound like the more you talk about it, the more is going to get resolved.

Can I suggest something? She may be on to something with the vacation. My husband is the same way- will not vacation to save his life since he opened his own business. I love to travel, like crazy big trips, and he has never once come with me. I know he won't, so I don't push it any more. But we do take small trips together every few months. It sounds like you could use a vacation, maybe even just a weekend away. You can't carry the world by yourself forever, a break might be good for both of you to remember how much you actually really like and appreciate each other. Doesn't even have to be far, just a break from the routine, and she might be really surprised to see you put "the usual" on hold.

Im not totally opposed to vacations but its just so hard with a dog, chickens, cats, gardens and home repairs going on. And in my experience, both from going with my wife and watching my wife go without me, its hard to make sense of it. I look at it like math:

Say you start out at -1 because lets face it, if you feel like you need a vacation you’re probably already at suboptimal levels.

Deciding, planning, packing and traveling are all stressful so lets call that -1. Now were at -2.

Say vacation is fantastic so lets call that +2. Now we’re at 0 which doesn’t sound good but its better than where we started.

But since we’ve been gone we have fallen behind and now have catch up to do since life waits for nobody. We call that -1.

So we end up right where we started. Its like a complicated expensive rollercoaster ride. You start on the ground, go up and down and end on the ground. Only you have less money and had an adrenaline rush in between.

My kind of vacation is to gobble down a fat sack of mushrooms and get lost in the forest for an afternoon. Then spend the next several days making sense of it all. Costs almost nothing, requires very little planning and inconveniences nobody else. And might bring some enlightenment or revelation at best.

I did plan our new coop with short trips in mind (automatic door, gravity feeder, large heated waterer). And the cats can probably fend for themselves for a few days. We would need to kennel the dog though or drop her off with someone else. Im much more likely to go for 2-3 days than a week or two. Maybe that will suffice for her.

The vacation, stresses and all, breaks up the feeling of merely trudging through life. In some ways, it's very like redecorating - breaks up the feeling of 'all work, no play' - even if there are other recreational activities, in your daily life - which is a very good thing for mental health, and yes, that makes all the difference in the world. Sometimes, a simple long weekend of 3 - 4 days can do the trick, other times, imho, ought to be longer - say a week or two. Wedding anniversary? Take a week. Special/milestone wedding anniversaries, like 5, 10, 15, 20, etc, maybe 2 weeks &/or fancier destination, accommodations, etc.  

I once knew of a woman - a single mom - who was always struggling, financially. But, every paycheck, she'd put away a bit of her check, to take the kids on a trip. When vacation time came, and the kids started asking where they were going, she'd remind them it wasn't about the destination, but the journey, and who you journeyed with. She'd pull out the savings, divide it in half, with separate envelopes for each half. Then, they'd vote on a direction, and and head out. When the first envelope ran out of money, they'd turn around, and have just as much fun on the way home - just going wherever the road took them. I always admired that philosophy, and though I've never managed to travel that way, myself - one day, I will. One aspect John and I do practice, is to look at each trip as an adventure, rather than as a vacation. That way, when something on the trip goes sideways(seemingly an inevitable part of life), it's simply part of the adventure, rather than something that 'ruins' the trip.

I've got critters, we both have businesses, etc, for us just an overnight trip is an undertaking. I pay lots of money for the privilege of sitting in a car for hours to stay in a place that is worse than my lovely house, to eat food that I could make better at home, drink beer that makes me get hungover, and the privilege of mosquito bites. But we have one day together, with no responsibilities, and we both need a break. We would both work 7 days a week if left to our own devices. Thank goodness we have the other looking out for us, or we'd burn ourselves right out. My husband likes a quick getaway to the beach, and that's what we can do, so it means the world.
How about spending some down time together? If you can only get away an afternoon, maybe go for a drive, a walk in the woods. A date, like doing something you both really enjoy?

Carla Burke wrote:The vacation, stresses and all, breaks up the feeling of merely trudging through life. In some ways, it's very like redecorating - breaks up the feeling of 'all work, no play' - even if there are other recreational activities, in your daily life - which is a very good thing for mental health, and yes, that makes all the difference in the world. Sometimes, a simple long weekend of 3 - 4 days can do the trick, other times, imho, ought to be longer - say a week or two. Wedding anniversary? Take a week. Special/milestone wedding anniversaries, like 5, 10, 15, 20, etc, maybe 2 weeks &/or fancier destination, accommodations, etc.  

I agree that taking a week or two to just forget reality and head out willy nilly to have fun is a healthy thing to to occasionally and definitely can freshen things up. Its just so difficult to do the more we get involved with our house and property. 2-3 days isnt too big of a deal though. I just hate relying on other people to take care of my responsibilities (that I willingly took on) while I’m gone. Partially because its not their problem and partially because they never give my animals the same quality of care and attention that I do. I always feel irresponsible when I leave others in charge of our animals. And thats not even taking into account the garden. Some years (like this one) we get enough rain to not have to worry. But if it was a dry summer, being gone for a week or two could be a disaster for everything I planted.

Tereza Okava wrote:I've got critters, we both have businesses, etc, for us just an overnight trip is an undertaking. I pay lots of money for the privilege of sitting in a car for hours to stay in a place that is worse than my lovely house, to eat food that I could make better at home, drink beer that makes me get hungover, and the privilege of mosquito bites. But we have one day together, with no responsibilities, and we both need a break. We would both work 7 days a week if left to our own devices. Thank goodness we have the other looking out for us, or we'd burn ourselves right out. My husband likes a quick getaway to the beach, and that's what we can do, so it means the world.
How about spending some down time together? If you can only get away an afternoon, maybe go for a drive, a walk in the woods. A date, like doing something you both really enjoy?

I have used almost those exact words to describe vacations before! Pay lots of money to sit around too much, eat overpriced food that doesn’t compare to the quality we have at home, stay in a place that feels way less comfortable than our own house, pay twice as much for beer…

But yes, little things like a trip to the beach, a walk in the woods or a date night do make a difference and are much more manageable. We have talked about regular date nights multiple times but its so hard to fit anything else “regular” into a schedule that already involves so many hours of regularly doing things. We always decide we need to be flexible about it and then several months go by without us going on any dates!

Brody Ekberg wrote:
I have used almost those exact words to describe vacations before!

Welcome to the grumpy old fart club! I have a badge (it says "get off my lawn, damn kids", came with some prune juice.).

Maybe you all need to set a date. Once a month, you choose the day, I choose the place, something like that. Next time I vice versa. Then hold yourselves to it, no excuses.
Do it before you have kids and things get REALLY impossible!!! Sort of kidding, sort of not: it's a good habit to get into.

On vacations, timing is everything, when you have livestock. "Off-season" vacations are not only usually less expensive, but less 'peopley', and usually mean more of your local friends, family, etc will be around to lend a hand, while you're gone. Winter, late autumn, or early spring are great times to take a week to ignore your gardens, too. We have a standing arrangement with friends down the street - livestock care swapping. We don't keep tabs, because we figure that it will all balance out, in the end, and each of us knows how the other attends their own critters.

Other options we plan to access, if the need arises, are the local 4H, FFA (Future Farmers of America), boy/girl scout groups, Awana groups, and our local homesteaders organizations, our horticulture/ag colleges. The kids groups are always looking for opportunities to teach the kids the value of volunteering, and both the kids (not little one - usually tweens & teens) and their adult supervisors are looking to learn and give quality care, and do so for free. The homesteading groups will often arrange it as a cooperative, and your side of the swap is typically something you're particularly good at, and willing to teach, or throw your back into, for a bit. So, while you're not getting out of doing work of some sort, you're also not doing any more work than you would, and people you can trust will have your back, while you're gone.

Tereza Okava wrote:
Maybe you all need to set a date. Once a month, you choose the day, I choose the place, something like that. Next time I vice versa. Then hold yourselves to it, no excuses.
Do it before you have kids and things get REALLY impossible!!! Sort of kidding, sort of not: it's a good habit to get into.

I think once a month is much more manageable, good idea!

And I can’t even imagine how difficult everything must be with children. Thats part of the reason I’ve been working so hard at home these last few years is because I figured once we have kids all progress will practically come to a halt.

Carla Burke wrote:On vacations, timing is everything, when you have livestock. "Off-season" vacations are not only usually less expensive, but less 'peopley', and usually mean more of your local friends, family, etc will be around to lend a hand, while you're gone. Winter, late autumn, or early spring are great times to take a week to ignore your gardens, too. We have a standing arrangement with friends down the street - livestock care swapping. We don't keep tabs, because we figure that it will all balance out, in the end, and each of us knows how the other attends their own critters.

We do have a lady here who has lived off grid, raised chickens, has a large garden and has a cat. We usually tend to her cat when she leaves and she tends to our chickens when we leave. I suppose we could have her check on the cats and garden too while we’re gone if we need to. And the automatic coop door will make me feel a lot better. I generally let the chickens out at daybreak because the old coop was so small. She would show up casually at like 9am and I would be stressing about the chickens because they had normally been out for hours at that point. The new coop and auto door will help with that now though, thankfully!

And as far as timing goes, I’ve already told my wife that for me to take a vacation the odds are way better if its mid winter. Spring, summer and fall are just too fantastic, and super busy for me to bail on. But winter sucks for the most part!

Hi,  I have a different take on the matter.   My thoughts are scattered so I hope they help.  First, my wife and I are in the winter of our lives. We were married when we were young. (OK this is the hard part as it could be considered cider press but I'm trying to not make it that. Yet I am talking life issues here and therefore everything in life needs to be addressed.) I am trying to connect your life with mine and show you another path. First I believe you said you were a Christian in another thread somewhere. If so what is the most important commandment and the second most important commandment. This is the foundation on what my wife and I try to live by every day in our lives. As we aged we grew closer together because of this, and because of another thing. In our marriage vows I pledged to love her as Christ loved the church. This means that I love her sacrificially. When I can live live like that- whether my wife agrees with me about my projects or not - and she wants me to do something that has no bearing on the getting the food and house in order so we can live stuff, and I sacrifice for her, then I am at rest even though I literally have over 50 projects to do before the snow flies.  When I can truly love her, then everything works out even when it doesn't.  I always try to keep things in perspective. Is my project in the desperate OMG it neds to be done this second or we are going to die? Or do I do put it off for her, and maybe am uncomfortable or I have a bit of a harder time doing it.   The first time I put her before me she cried for days because she couldn't believe someone would love her that much.  (So where is your perspective? Will you die without the stove or will life just not be as comfortable as you want for a bit.)

OK - Things that have helped my wife and I in our living and growing together.  Every morning we kiss each other and look deeply in each others eyes and say I love you. Then in the back of our mind all day that is there. When we were young we always talked about everything. The more we talked and held hands, had the effect of us growing together and we became one.  (Brody you said you could live alone. If you truly want her then you two must become one.)  Another thing we did and still do. Once each week my wife and I go out on a date. (No not a pretentious fancy eating joint, just something we both like to do.) Or sometimes I just watch the love story hallmark movie with her because she would really want to do that. I learned to give her what she needs, and yes she has learned to give me my needs.  If the two of you cannot do that then one is master and the other is slave. Not a good place to be. Always remember perspective and focus.  Draw back and see a bigger picture.

A big big thing. 60% of people who split up is because of money. You referenced money. Do you truly do not have enough to live on. Are you starving? Where is your perspective. Are you afraid that if the (SHTF) you will not be ready? Honestly I went through a phase like that and I was never ready. On top of all that not being ready, having to show my wife we could not afford something was ...  But by working through it we either find a way to do something or I dump some "Special Project I want to do" so I can provide it.

Logical progression of projects discussed and mapped so we both understand it.  Example - Paint the bedroom.  Have to remove all furniture from a 2nd room and store it, move all furniture from bedroom to 2nd room for living while painting.  Problem - storage.  There is literally no storage room currently because of structural problems that happened with the home, Solution.  The house is jacked and a beam is in place. Finish drywall and painting and shelving in basement and organizing and putting everything away to make space for furniture. Other problems  got in the way of that, doctors and illness, having to do everything and be a caretaker on top of everything.  Solution -  lots of talking and hugging.

Time constraints.  Problem - not enough hours in the day.  Solution,  reprioritize projects and spend time with my wife.  If it takes 2 years to finish something instead of 2 days' so I can spend time with her, it is worth it. I will not die if the project is not done, and I don't think you would either. Where is your perspective? Remember, what we focus on expands and can take up our whole vision.  

My wife and I have lived together for a long time and I am still learning how to scacrifice for her.

From your side of the story your wife makes no sense. At least not from what I assume from your story- that this desire to paint is relatively recent and began after you started your house project. Was she always very concerned about aesthetics? If not, what do you think is driving her desire to paint? It seems way too simplistic and easy to put it down to “women care about feelings and men about realities”. That is neither accurate nor helps to solve your problem. Besides which, it carries a whiff of the assumption that you are right and she is a capricious female obsessed with aesthetics and unconcerned about the realities of life. With that assumption, it would be easy to ignore her, ignore your relationship problems, and then wonder why she left after you drive her away not listening to what she is telling you. And I can’t figure out what she is trying to communicate from what you have said. But that is why I asked if this was a recent development. If she was always very concerned about aesthetics perhaps it is just her value system and you will have to decide if that is a dealbreaker for you. But if this is a recent development, it is likely that it is a poor attempt to communicate. Does she feel appreciated in the work she does? Let me repeat that- does SHE feel appreciated? NOT- do YOU feel you appreciate her work? Do you take charge on the home repairs and leave her feeling like she is just your laborer and needs an outlet for her own creativity? Is she stressed out over what sounds like a stressful situation and looking for an aspect of her living situation she can control?

Please understand- I am not trying to say you are a bad man running roughshod over your wife. I don’t know you or your wife or your situation. She could just be one of those people who has no concept of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. But, I am a deep pragmatist myself. Over the years, I’ve learned that the need to feel respected and appreciated is a need as deep as the need for food or shelter. People will vote for politicians who promise to take away their food and shelter because they are promised a sense of worth and dignity. (And btw, I see that on both sides of the aisle so please don’t try to nitpick this into a political thing.) I think we owe those we love and live with the benefit of the doubt, to not assume that they are not acting in accordance with their own needs. It’s an easy out to blame “woman’s nature” for why your marital problems, but in general it takes two to tango. And you can really only change yourself. Please understand that in general, I understand where you are coming from- I’m the pragmatic person who has not yet let my husband redecorate all our walls despite the fact that they are just primed and our kids have ruined the primer at this point. We’ve been working on fixing the house and food production, so I’m kind of mirror image to your situation. So I’m not at all unsympathetic to wanting to get the needs met before the aesthetics come into play. But I hope you will take the time to figure out why your wife has put everything I assume she wants as well on hold to paint. From my own experience as a retired tradeswoman married to a retired tradesman, I could speculate that men (even men who are easy to work with at work) tend to treat their wives as apprentices or junior partners. Which may or may not be the slightest bit relevant, or might not upset your wife at all- many women don’t care about that. It could be so simple as she needs a little break from the stress of the big necessities and maybe you’d get more done more happily after a weekend away. I know I desperately wish my hubby and I had taken more time away together being romantic before we had kids. We worked responsibly on saving money and getting educations. And then lucked into land and money and have no time for anything but our kids and farm. I was never a wine and roses girl, but now that that is not convenient option I see what we missed. So, please don’t take any of this as being me saying I know your problems or have solutions because I don’t. I’m just encouraging your to give your wife the benefit of the doubt and to share a couple of things from my experiences that may or may not be AT ALL relevant

After some thought, I also wanted to ask if you have ever considered whether you might have an anxiety disorder. I have an anxiety disorder, and I find it a common misconception that those with anxiety worry “excessively” or that our concerns are irrational. However, that is not really what an anxiety disorder is about. There are huge existential threats out there. It is helpful to worry about them enough to plan for them and work to mitigate risks. None of that is excessive or irrational. BUT, when concern for the future interferes with enjoying the present, it could be a cause for concern. In modern day America, far more men die of stress-related conditions like heart disease than of starvation or freezing to death. Stress and overwork is a clear and fatal threat far more than food security, and perhaps more than warmth. It makes little sense to prepare for SHTF if that means facing it alone because you failed to learn sustainable relationship skills or how to balance the present with the future. I’m getting to the point where I’m realistically assessing my ability to provide for my family if SHTF. And I’ve gotten the chip off my shoulder and realized that those “soft skills” I thought wouldn’t matter when we have “bigger problems” have actually been prioritized by most societies which succeeded at lower levels of tech. Many Native American tribes run by consensus managed to live for millennia and have enjoyable lives with time for the average person to pursue crafts like quillwork or to fulfill spiritual needs through elaborate ceremony. By contrast, authoritarian societies in the Near East obsessed with physical security (having massive granaries and armies) degraded their land leaving the average person’s life short and impoverished, with a continual Red Queen problem going on between petty warlords each attempting to establish their family for all time. The pursuit of security at the expense of the here and now can result in less security. It has even been argued that our current social, political, and economic problems have their roots in the unbalancing of the need for physical security from the need for human connection and community. On a personal level, researching into these trends has led me to realize that the #1 thing I need to make my family sustainable is to make being sustainable fun for us all- even when doing not fun stuff. And that’s hard for me, because I prefer to work alone and get shit done, not to play into games where the kid’s imaginary dinosaur friends are helping them stack wood (shoot me now…). But having a 9 yo and. 2 yo I find myself taking more time to get my tot involved even though it means nothing gets done. Her learning the skills and to enjoy work and creating a family culture where we work together and make things fun is worth so much more than the tasks. And I know that is hard when working full-time and building things up. But there comes a point where it is unrealistic to expect to build up a homestead faster than allows for doing so in a feelings-friendly way. Your homestead is unsustainable if your family hates you. It is unsustainable if it is a source of stress. You have mentioned your wife watching friend’s vacations- but you are hear hearing about all these cool permies ideas you probably want to implement. I know I can get quite stressed feeling behind the curve if I spend too much time reading about what others are doing- even if I tell myself these are plans for five years from today, not for tomorrow. With all that is is going on in the world, all the skills that have been lost, it is so easy to develop rational worries that nevertheless have a detrimental impact on life, happiness, and relationships. It might be worth considering whether your dedication to ensuring a secure future is serving you and your family or running the show. It might be helpful to set a schedule of what self-sufficiency tasks you want to accomplish with a timeframe and discuss it with your wife, so that if all the boxes get checked, then it isn’t on to the next project but time to rest, relax, and enjoy the good things in life.