What Men Want

It's me again, Dale, The Love Guru, loved by some and despised by many.

I thought it would be nice to have a spot where men and women can just state what it is that they want, without getting into the sticky details of past relationships, or discussing their Suicidal Tendencies.

So this one is just for the men to say exactly what they want in a woman, and out of a relationship. After you have made your submission, pop over to the sister thread, where women can say at exactly what it is they want. I think many things will be the same, but some will be different.

Women, feel free to respond.

People are allowed to want whatever they want. If a toothless old man wants a hot young thing, that's his business.
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Then tell us what steps you have taken, to get what you want

I'm going to leave this for a while and let someone else go first. That way if I draw a lot of flack, at least the thread will start out nicely.

Who who wants to go first?

I think people all want the same thing.  Someone that loves them, supports them, is attracted to them, makes them feel secure, and respects them.  Beyond that, I want a partner that is smart and funny and has her own mind.  I don't want subservience, or a boss.  I want an equal.  Someone to share my life with, not to rule over, or be ruled by.

Thumbs up to Trace, our first respondant.

It's tough to follow something like that because he has covered a few bases. Bravo

Trace Oswald wrote:I think people all want the same thing.  Someone that loves them, supports them, is attracted to them, makes them feel secure, and respects them.  Beyond that, I want a partner that is smart and funny and has her own mind.  I don't want subservience, or a boss.  I want an equal.  Someone to share my life with, not to rule over, or be ruled by.

I'll agree with the above but add competence. The only real skill my (soon to be) former partner developed was to refine her ability to get others to do things for her.

Roy Hinkley wrote:
I'll agree with the above but add competence. The only real skill my (soon to be) former partner developed was to refine her ability to get others to do things for her.

Isn't that leadership skills, JK.

But yes finding someone who has similar/complimentary skills is important.
trying to raise your kids atheist while your partner is trying to turn them into the next prophet is going to lead to alot of problem. So does looking for your partner to any type of xyz but the answer is always no.

Related to that is expectations, being upfront that you have the following xyz expectation and if you can't have this much percentage of it met will be a no go long term but you if they are just looking for a one week/random booty call. then sure I will be available for a time.

Yes, competence and resilience. I'm pretty and I look very pretty, are not skills.

When I look at the competence I had when I was 10 years old, I was more of a man than some of the silly buggers that I've hired who are in their forties. And I respect those things in women. I could kill something to eat when I was 10, I almost killed a man when I was 8. He started it. I was completely self supporting and independent at 14. I determined that I was an atheist at 8 and have never wavered.

And my woman in the Philippines could feed herself and her siblings from the garden or the river when she was 6 years old. She could go anywhere she wanted to on her horse when she was 8. By the time she was 15 she was helping to support her family. And major shit happened to her family including the death of her father and her being sent away as a child to work in a wealthy household so that she could go to school, and she's not bitter. Not even a little bit bitter about having to struggle far more than most of us ever will.

Someone mentioned complementary skills. She is not bitter. My middle name is bitter. Literally the name Harvey means bitter in Gaelic or something and that's my middle name. I can hold a grudge for decades, while she forgives. I want to see my enemies vanquished, and piss on their graves. She wants to help them, so that they can be better people.:-)

Both of us are really tight with money, but we are not the same. I'm a hoarder, and she's a giver.

She is very cautious and fearful in many circumstances. I throw caution to the wind and only fear a few things that can physically hurt me. She's very concerned about what people might think about her. Anyone familiar with me, knows that I'm about as opposite as we could be on that.

She can be shy. Give me a microphone and you're going to either learn something, be subjected to some very Politically Incorrect shit, or you're going to think that Sinatra has been reincarnated.

I play for one team, and it's team Dale. She's a total team player, and totally on board with the captain of Team Dale on almost everything. I could never join someone else's team without constantly trying to usurp.

So, we are not the same, we are complementary.

Beyond the obvious, I was once married to a woman who was not into farming and it was an absolute nightmare. When I hear of people saying, "my wife and I are not on the same page in regards to permaculture", I really cringe. I am not sympathetic to them, I am empathetic. BIG difference.

With Katie, my current wife; sure the worst words ever are, "The sheep are out", but she still helps round them back up. She has even gone without a primary kitchen just so we could buy more land, build barns and buy more sheep. That is a true help-mate.

Today she is a high end banker, but while not in a position now to do so, we are working towards a goal where we can work togther in a few months as we work so well together.

But beyond the backrubs that keep me going physically, the intimate sex that keeps our marriage healthy, the way she nurtures our children to keep our family strong...we have the most profound theological descussions on biblical principals. That all is priceless.

When I get really specific about what I want, it makes people angry for some reason. Numerous members of my family have had something nasty to say recently, when they question me about what I'm up to with my online dating. So, I laid it out pretty clearly, to two of my brothers and to my mother last week.

I told them that I've decided to go after exactly what I think I would like the best, rather than what anyone else wants for me. And they are strongly against it, as though they have some sort of say in the matter. And they're against it for different reasons. With my brothers it comes down to jealousy, because they haven't managed their health or their finances or anything else, to where this could be a reality for them. My mother thinks it isn't proper, whatever that means.

My brother sent some nasty messages yesterday concerning it. He wants me to want all of the things that he wants. My rejection of everything he wants is just a rejection for me. I'm not trying to tell him what he wants. So, I boiled it down to this, for me. And this is what made him so angry that he sent some really nasty shit last night.
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I have decided that during the winter at least, and maybe for most of the year, I would like to live in a tropical paradise, with a beautiful, intelligent,, young woman. I have already found her, and we will soon travel around the Philippines, where she's from, in search of an ideal spot to build a home surrounded by a food forest, with some potential for tourism.
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To me, it's a totally achievable goal, that would be much more enjoyable than the lifestyle I currently enjoy. And my family want me to drop that plan immediately. Not that we spend much time together or anyting, just that I shouldn't be able to just have whatever I want. Both my brother and mother have been naming various unattach women that they know, and telling me they could make introductions. I'm not that desperate, so that's not happening.  The brother is jealous, my ex wife is angry, my children seem somewhat bewildered but accepting, and my mother just can't see why any man would want that...... And there it is. A whole bunch of voices nattering in my ear. And only two of those voices matter. The two daughters. If I don't see that brother or my mother again, it won't be the end of the world.

Finding a person who encourages your ideas and goals in life, and is also clear about what their ideas and goals are as well so you can find a good path to encourage both of you, or at least be aware that they don't align. Finding at least a few activities that you both enjoy together, but not needing to do everything together or "else". Meaning a person shouldn't give up a hobby or activity just because the other person isn't interested in it, so long as it's not the only thing you do in your life.

Having a girls night or poker night or whatever night is healthy for maintaining those friendships. That can tie into your friends as well, dating or marrying someone should not result in either person "giving up" their existing friends or social circle to where only their partner fills that entire role. That's not healthy, you need a balance. Same with activities, you hopefully have something you both were interested in already that you can continue to do together, and perhaps one introduces the other to something new that is also fun. But that is also a give and take, and shouldn't be one-sided.

Some famous guy made this list up about his preferences for his already wife,

CONDITIONS

A. You will make sure:

1. that my clothes and laundry are kept in good order;
2. that I will receive my three meals regularly in my room;
3. that my bedroom and study are kept neat, and especially that my desk is left for my use only.

B. You will renounce all personal relations with me insofar as they are not completely necessary for social reasons. Specifically, You will forego:

1. my sitting at home with you;
2. my going out or travelling with you.

C. You will obey the following points in your relations with me:

1. you will not expect any intimacy from me, nor will you reproach me in any way;
2. you will stop talking to me if I request it;
3. you will leave my bedroom or study immediately without protest if I request it.

D. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior.


to that, I'd add

intimacy upon my demand,
that you always keep fit, and have a nice appearance,
you leave the relationship upon becoming sick, ill, or needy in some other way,
new rules can and will be added whenever I so choose.


That seems to cover the basics of what I'd want

Feel free to pm me if you're qualified.

Ladies, it's important to not all send him a message at once. We don't want to overwhelm the system. This is the sort of competition I had on the website where I found my girlfriend. There were many guys who had basically this sort of relationship in mind. I'm a Neanderthal, but by comparison I didn't look bad at all.

I think it's important to see all points of view. I remember reading Bethany's list of requirements in the other thread. I'm pretty sure that she won't be interested. In my online profile, I am completely honest about many things and it totally works for me, of course I didn't say anything like what I read in the previous post. I talked about equality and intelligence and various things. But some people are looking for a maid and all around lackey. If I ever see that this gentleman has express interest in one of the women in the singles section, I will send her a link to this, just so she knows what to expect. And if it disappears or it is hugely edited, that's fine. I have screenshots saved on my phone. Classic stuff :-)
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As a male, there are many times when I view a woman, and I think something, but I generally don't say anything or write it down. My thoughts could be positive or negative but I keep them private usually.

When I first met my Filipino girlfriend, she sent me several messages, promising a degree of subservience that I would be uncomfortable with. Her profile stated that she was an independent woman and educated and various other positive things. So, I called her on some of this stuff and asked why she would make such promises. It was things like I will always cook for you and I will always keep the house clean and I will always a whole bunch of other stuff that she's overqualified for.

She said it's because I really like you and I want to make sure that you know these things, that I'm willing to be a really good wife, so you stop talking to the other women on the website.

Her interests don't really lie in cooking and cleaning, and I wouldn't be interested in a woman who had those as her chief goals in life. After talking about it for a while, it became apparent that this was culturally expected of her and she had read profiles of many men who stated their desire for these things. My profile did not go into that territory at all, but she assumed that this would be a requirement.

A few days later, when I mentioned that I'm one of the world's best cooks,  she agreed that she would like to try some of that food, but that it must not appear to others that I am cooking and she is not cooking. I said what if we make a mixture of Filipino and western food and say that we both cooked it. And that works for her.

When we first started talking about creating a touristy business, she talked about keeping things neat and tidy and making food. For about $3 a day, you can hire someone in the Philippines to do exactly that. I'm sure I would pay more. I told her this and said, "wouldn't you rather be the person who teaches yoga and zumba classes and helps me take people on trail rides? These are all things that she really likes to do. She would absolutely love to do that type of work, but believed that there was a requirement for cooking and cleaning, as the woman in the relationship. She has never had someone cook and clean for her, other than her mother mother so she may end up helping whoever I hire. Of course that business doesn't exist yet so we will definitely do our own until we are overwhelmed with customers.

Dale Hodgins wrote:My mother thinks it isn't proper, whatever that means.

Dale, I have no idea what your relationship is like with your mom, but it might be of some value in considering what her opinion means.  She could be interested in what truly is in your best interests.

My mother cares what people at her church think. And she would like to fix me up with someone who is completely inappropriate for me because of their religiosity. She's been an embarrassment all my life with her imaginary friends and faith healings.

I've had to tell about half of my family that they will have absolutely no say in what I do in my personal life. The others didn't think they had any say in what I do, so it hasn't come up. I didn't participate in helping any of my siblings select their mate. Well, I did introduce one brother to his wife, but only because he was supposed to put the roof on her house, which he did. He was living in her room 3 days later. A rather quick start to a relationship that is in its 29th year. She pounced, what was he to do?

Those who think they should tell me what to do, all have one thing in common. None of them are particularly interested in what I want. They know what's good for me, based on their own values. Few people have so completely and utterly rejected the values he was raised with, as I have. They know this, but can't help themselves, when the opportunity to medle presents itself.

Dale it just isn't proper that you are ignoring my best friends sister's cousin daughter to run after these african/asian foreigner. You already know that if you get married to them there is a 50% it will end in a divorce and if you move in with them without getting married it is 90% it will end and if it is just dating long distance, oh boy the number is even higher.

Dale don't be evil to yourself if you go local your odds will be 49% vs 50% or 89% vs 90%. Is the warm weather, sustainable, atheist lifestyle really worth losing out on that extra 1%. Shame on you Dale.

(sarcasm)  

I see your numbers mr. Benji and they work for your comical purposes. But, they are by no means accurate.

I always check out statistical probabilities for various things. The most likely demographic to stay married, in North America, are Asian women. Filipino women in particular are more likely to stay married than other women. And when those marriages dissolve, it's almost always because of something the man did. Infidelity topping the list. I didn't cheat on my ex-wife who drove me nuts. This woman is a little less than half of my age, so I just can't imagine that I would stray, since it's not my pattern anyway. I have always being a serial monogamist. And the serial part just because of not going to the trouble to find someone worth staying with.

Here's another statistic for North America. Black women are more likely to divorce of any other demographic. But, those married to white men are much less likely to divorce. Again, the reasons cited for the divorce often include bad things that the male has done. Black women from conservative backgrounds in Africa, who marry foreigners, are much less likely to become divorced. There's a lot invested in that type of relationship, and the woman has already seen a huge increase in her social standing and financial prospects, the moment she agrees to it. The dissolution of my engagement to my friend from Kenya, was hugely embarrassing to her. She never intends to tell her grandmother who is 99 and won't live long.

So divorce statistics can tell us many things about how committed various cohorts of people can be to their relationships. Then when I check out the reasons why even these groups get divorced, it's so often comes down to really bad behavior by the men. I don't smoke, drink, gamble or chase whores. Once you eliminate those things from the equation, the reasons for these unions to end badly drops to the point where it's hardly comparable to your average North American union. It gets down to Mormon levels. They don't usually divorce.

My sister, who I get along with much better than most of the family, ask me a few questions about the motivations of the various women I've been talking to. I asked her who was the most intelligent of her brothers. And she gave the only answer that would be suitable to me. Then I said, do you think I'm picking the first one that falls into my lap. She figured I had some sort of system.

Here's another thing that really messes with divorce statistics. We commonly hear that about 50% of North American marriages end in divorce. But that doesn't mean that 50% of people are divorced. Some people have 8 marriages. My young nephew was divorced 3 times by the time he was 27. And he has proposed marriage several times since then. People like him drive the numbers way up. If you were to look at the incidence of divorce amongst those who abstain from alcohol and cigarettes, or amongst various groups like Mormons , Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses I'm sure the statistics would show far less chances of divorce.

Dale Hodgins wrote:My mother cares what people at her church think. And she would like to fix me up with someone who is completely inappropriate for me because of their religiosity. She's been an embarrassment all my life with her imaginary friends and faith healings.

Got it...when folks come from such different places their ideas of what makes one happy are on different planets.  I was idealizing the mother relationship (I am a somewhat hopeless idealist) and what perspective she might be bringing to the table (worries and concerns for you)....but very little is ideal out there.  It seems that perhaps your sister was coming closer to the voice I was thinking of.  Best wishes Dale.

Copied from Bethany in the other thread (with minor edits italicized) as it's a good start for me...

I'm hoping to find someone who can be a friend first - a likeminded woman - and hopefully maybe have something more develop.

She's hard working, reliable, mature, intelligent, self motivated, ambitious and an out of the box thinker. She has goals in life, and is actively working towards achieving them. She might be an extremist (read that uncompromising in her core beliefs) and she appreciates independence in a man.

Someone who is looking for a partner in crime, not just someone to do laundry and cook for her and any children she might have. She probably isn't a city girl, but someone who thrives being outside in the wild.

And yes - it would be a massive bonus if requirement that she is interested in homesteading/permaculture/sustainability/etc [i]or at least be comfortable with the idea of working towards self sufficiency.

She would be an athiest and an anarchist (no masters, not the chaoticist garbage paraded by the media as anarchism).

She would either be willing to violate legislation and ordinances that are unlawful or at least not be paranoid/uptight about my doing so. Ideally she would work with me to openly violate bad legislation and sue those who attempt to violate our rights in response... but that's probably a stretch. So yes, partner in crime is literal for me... through the "crimes" would be related to not obeying and/or exercising rights such as building without permits, growing grass too tall, and feeding the homeless. I believe in law (harm no one) but not legislation of people.

She would let me know when I'm upsetting her instead of expecting me to read her mind and be able to take my telling her that she is upsetting me without trying to claim that my telling her so is some kind of personal attack.

Finally, she would generally not fuss about something. Instead she would either take care of the problem or ask directly for help with it.

A few things I absolutely don't want:
- Someone who believes her mom (or dad) is always right and/or always has her best interests in mind
- Someone who calls her mom mommy or her dad daddy
- Someone who cares more about what people she hardly knows think than what she wants
- Someone who wants to change me (I'll probably always be an athiest anarchist permie. I'll probably never dress regularly in anything other than t-shirts and blue jeans. I'll likely never care what anyone else thinks about how I look in public.)
- A princess.

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What am I doing about it?

Nothing at this point. Once I'm back on my feet from my second divorce I probably still won't do much beyond joining local groups that pike my interest. All I know for certain is that I won't have another serious relationship with anyone who isn't an anarchist, anyone who is overtly religious (spiritual is fine), or anyone that lacks at least moderate self confidence.

If I had to pick a single thing that must be different for me than in the past, I guess it would be the team player thing. Someone who has the absolute desire to move forward together, in whatever direction we choose. I've never experienced that, just heard about it.

In casting the very wide net that I have, in finding the woman of my choosing, I inserted more deal killers into my profile and search parameters, than I ever have before. And I believe this has led to a good match. My atheism was a definite deal killer for some women who otherwise found me appealing. And I encountered quite a few women who I found awesome, except for one of my deal-killer items.

Both of these poems moved me to tears when I recently heard them recited.  They seem to fit well with the theme here.

The first is written by Aubrey Marcus and is inspired by Alison Nappi's: A wild woman is not a girlfriend. She is a relationship with nature, which is also copied below.  Enjoy!

A wild man is not a boyfriend, he is a force.
Can you love me in the blinding heat of a birthing star, when I shower warmth on distant moons?

Can you love me in the hole of the cosmic Black, where no one can reach me? Not even you?

Can you love me then too?

Can you love me when I drag buffalo skulls through the dirt for days, to the rhythm of an ancient drum?

Will you love me if my beard hides the scars in my heart, from battles I cannot explain?

WIll you love me when I lack courage, when I am defeated, when I won't let you patch my wounds?

WIll you trust me when I smell of sweetgrass and sage, and when I stink of whiskey and sweat?

When I drink from the cup and play in astral light, will you anchor me to Home?

What happens when my words don't work, and I can speak with only my eyes?

Can you love me enough to let me go, without asking me where I'll be?

I am no poodle to lay groomed on a leash at your feet. I am the wolf that fetches the bones of truth.

A wild man is not a boyfriend. He's not built for animal husbandry. He is a force. He is a cause for an effect. He is a mission.

Are you afraid to let me inside you? Not just my flesh, but my soul. The wild man is neither burglar or vandal. I will not take anything from you. I will not trample on sprouting seeds or pick flowers as a trophy. I am the sun on flooded fields and the fire for tangled webs.

Don't be scared, lover, mother, maiden, crone. Take me as I am.

Even if I have the power to destroy worlds, I will not destroy you.

A wild man is a protector. A father. A warrior for all that is good.

When the chaos seeks to obliterate you, sheering your flesh from bone, I will hold all the pieces together in love, until you are ready to reassemble.

When your seas boil, and your winds throw cars at corn fields, I will wait patiently for you to catch my eye, so that both of us can laugh.

When Hell opens up the fiery gates, and sends all the cosmos against you, I plant my heels deep in the ground. I lay my shield low. My sword is sharp then, my love. The steel sings sweetly. With a smile, Hoka Hey! My last breath a farewell kiss. Today is a good day to die.

For ours is the oldest love affair. The greatest story ever told. Cupid and Psyche, Shiva and Shakti, You and I.

Same same but different. Would we have it any other way?

A wild man is not a boyfriend. He is a force.



Allison Nappi's poem:

A wild woman is not a girlfriend. She is a relationship with nature.

But can you love me in the deep? In the dark? In the thick of it?

Can you love me when I drink from the wrong bottle and slip through the crack in the floorboard?

Can you love me when I'm bigger than you, when my presence blazes like the sun does, when it hurts to look directly at me?

Can you love me then too? Can you love me under the starry sky, shaved and smooth, my skin like liquid moonlight?

Can you love me when I am howling and furry, standing on my haunches, my lower lip stained with the blood of my last kill?

When I call down the lightning, when the sidewalks are singed by the soles of my feet, can you still love me then?

What happens when I freeze the land, and cause the dirt to harden over all the pomegranate seeds we've planted?

Will you trust that Spring will return?

Will you still believe me when I tell you I will become a raging river, and spill myself upon your dreams and call them to the surface of your life?

Can you trust me, even though you cannot tame me?

Can you love me, even though I am all that you fear and admire?

Will you fear my shifting shape?

Does it frighten you, when my eyes flash like your camera does?

Do you fear they will capture your soul?

Are you afraid to step into me?

The meat-eating plants and flowers armed with poisonous darts are not in my jungle to stop you from coming. Not you.

So do not worry. They belong to me, and I have invited you here.

Stay to the path revealed in the moonlight and arrive safely to the hut of Baba Yaga: the wild old wise one, she will not lead you astray if you are pure of heart.

You cannot be with the wild one if you fear the rumbling of the ground, the roar of a cascading river, the startling clap of thunder in the sky.

If you want to be safe, go back to your tiny room the night sky is not for you.

If you want to be torn apart, come in. Be broken open and devoured. Be set ablaze in my fire.

I will not leave you as you have come: well dressed, in finely-threaded sweaters that keep out the cold.

I will leave you naked and biting. Leave you clawing at the sheets. Leave you surrounded by owls and hawks and flowers that only bloom when no one is watching.

So, come to me, and be healed in the unbearable lightness and darkness of all that you are.

There is nothing in you that can scare me. Nothing in you I will not use to make you great.

A wild woman is not a girlfriend. She is a relationship with nature. She is the source of all your primal desires, and she is the wild whipping wind that uproots the poisonous corn stalks on your neatly tilled farm.

She will plant pear trees in the wake of your disaster.

She will see to it that you shall rise again.

She is the lover who restores you to your own wild nature.

Someone got to say it. If you think the ladies are dramatic? I got some stories for you. I promise you gay man can be way more drama-driven and far more unpredictable.

These the only 4 rules rules I need to have in order to keep away Crazy. I give this list tactfully on the third date. He either leaves immediately or is totally relieved.

-please don't talk over me.
-I won't stay out past 7pm.
-No new pets. Farm stock are not pets.
-these rules are mutual. And everything else is negotiable.

you be surprise how many people can't be happy with the person they picked. Having a relationship is so easy if you let it be.