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Is this normal for a Permie? Re: marriage  RSS feed

 
Posts: 123
Location: SW Tennessee Zone 7a average rainfall 52"
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I second Danielle's comment.

Your husband CAN control his temper. He simply chooses not to. I'd bet a million bucks that if he was in one of his tirades and your pastor knocked on the door, he'd pull himself together and open the door with a smile on his face.

Unchecked, this will only get worse. Now he is hitting your little girl with paper that he throws. What happens when he decides to throw the coffee pot?

There is a guy named Lundy Bancroft who wrote an awesome book entitled Why Does He Do That? He says that inside every abusive guy is one core belief ... I deserve to have someone else meet my needs, and I am justified in punishing them if they don't.

 
Posts: 115
Location: Chcago IL
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Danielle Venegas wrote: Get on public assistance or whatever it takes.



Yep, everybody needs help, nothing wrong with that.

If you want your husband to listen you have to realize what the PROBLEM is.

Most seem to agree it's a neglectful and abusive suppose/father.

I don't believe the WHY is all that important and focusing o the WHY can distract you from the SOLUTION.

Possible solutions could be, divorce, restraining order, counseling for you and children, reaching out to community for help with getting your family through the winter.

Do not hesitate to kick him in the butt if that's what you think is warranted it may help him in the longer run. Just do nut torture him with nagging, it won't work and addiction which has intelligence of a cunning animal will quickly turn it all into your fault.
 
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Back in the day, I faced a choice about a relationship too. (Not the same issues exactly) I picked up some advice that has helped me many times. Basically: There are 3 ways to be in relation; 1) In, 2) Out, and 3) Wait. 'In' is fairly evident. You are IN, going for it, and giving your all. (Think of a tennis game and how you play the game) When you are IN, you are not sitting on the sidelines... 'Out', is also fairly obvious decision. Out means just that, you are out, no need for fiddling around, move on. Now number 3 is the tricky one- 'Wait'. This is not recommended, but if you are choosing 'wait', then give yourself some guidelines. Answer this: What am I waiting for, and how long am I willing to wait. Give yourself a short time to live in 'wait', for example, 1 month. Then at the end of the designated time, assess the situation. Be wary of continuing the 'wait' routine. Best wishes to you for a happy and healthful life. You and your children deserve love and safety to grow.
 
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Bethany

Your husband's anger and abuse of family and the fact that nobody else ever sees it - if that fully and accurately represents your situation then that worries me. I was in something like his position many years ago and I was nothing even close to rational - it was very scary. It sounds like you have taken big steps to face an unpleasant situation and discover what can be done and that is surely the right thing to do, even if it leads to difficult paths.

Please take seriously your husband's displays of temper only "in private" and the soft core violence; if I understand correctly, this has been going on for years. This hidden and targeted abuse indicates a willingness to inflict on you something he knows is wrong - while keeping it secret from all others, or at least reserving for his family that status of whipping boy. This is WRONG. His support habits may be arguable and he may be charming and contribute from his earnings. But what you described is abuse. This is not a way for a man to be or act - it damages everybody involved. Unfortunately, it's also not something that can be "talked out". After 10 years he could not tell the truth or change this to save his life.

Your health and well being need your full attention. Get support, moral, physical, emotional, short term, long term, everything out there. You _need_ it; it is not optional You are probably not dealing with a person but with a pychosis. When you separate, do it as civilly as possible but quickly, unequivocally. I suspect that when you do he will flip and become Mr. Angelic, Mr. Love, Mr. Commitment... etc. Remember that perfect image he has projected to the public for all the years you have known him? And after that, nasty.

I'm sorry, but I think you really need to change the game as soon as you safely can regardless of where that places your living space. Do stay in touch on Permies - even if worst case you turn into a city rat for a while like most of us. <g>


Rufus
 
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I think this has to do a lot with personalities, as has already been said.
Here is another one, Maslows Hierarchy.. http://chartdiagram.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs/

I think that he is in a place where he needs his esteem needs met.

I am going to be blunt here too.
I think he may have once loved you and the kids ( deep down probably still does) but now sees you all as standing in the way of his fame, esteem, ( which he feels a terrible desire for) this makes him angry. He feels trapped by your demands at the homestead, he wants to be free to go on the road to get his esteem needs met. But deep inside he knows that he has a duty to you and his children. So he is torn between his needs and his moral obligation. This makes him angry.

So you can give him his freedom. Doesn't mean you have to divorce, just tell him to put 100 % of his time into the band. Then stop asking for his help . This may keep him away from you and the kids, long enough for you to get things together. At that point , as others have said you need to get rid of him.

If not he will continue to be angry and at some point he will snap.
 
gardener
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I agree, this current situation won't last, things are not going to get better with his drive for fame and yours for home and family. And angry outbursts, at the secluded homestead, are a very bad sign. If things are as you say then you have to take action.

I could be wrong, but from what you've said it sounds like the homestead is in his name and your concerned about loosing it. So if you try and make-a-deal with him -for his freedom- make sure you end up in the power position. I was in a abusive (after we married) relationship, and I just could not understand where the anger was coming from - Wow this quote is so true, "I deserve to have someone else meet my needs, and I am justified in punishing them if they don't." I was able to stop the physical abuse (not the verbal) and then have him leave me and the children + child support. Before I showed him he needed to break away he always came after us. So how you break is very important to your future of peace. He needs to see that you are going to 'meet his needs' by freeing him from the homestead and family demands. I'm stating this very simply here, there is much more but you get the idea I'm sure.

You could tell him the accident has made you do a lot of thinking about everything . . . . . and you see he needs this time with the band, but you need somethings too . . . . I would let him know that you want what your asking for even if he doesn't take you up on making the band full time, spending more time on his interests, whatever. Use his 'dream' and angry outbursts as the proof that some changes must be made for both of you to feel fulfilled. Tell him you see how frustrated he is, and so on (make it all about him). You never want to make a volatile man feel like he's loosing anything, so sell it like he wins and you won't need to nag him because you'll feel more secure not being so dependent on him. Keep your money, bank account, titles and land in your name only.

You may not be able to count on child support, at least not without some legal action, so make your plans without factoring it in. And consider off beat income streams - such as offering leases for others to try off-grid living in their own motor homes on your land. Maybe offering a hunting on your land, etc. You're going to have to get creative, and there are still a few months of winter left.

I didn't see any mention of if this band is Christian or not, are there drugs, groupies, after parties in the mix? There is a lot more at play than seeking fame when it comes to entertainers on the road.

I found the biggest stumbling block to getting out of a relationship gone wrong is that the water heats so slowly (jump frog jump)! This is someone you know well, it's hard to believe the unbelievable, much less see it before it is to late. And there will always be huge financial pressures to not change the status quo. If you take money out of it would you still be in position #3 waiting?

Take care of the girls and yourself, we are praying for you.
 
Hans Harker
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Miles Flansburg wrote:
If not he will continue to be angry and at some point he will snap.



There may be something that may be worth noticing about the anger:

Role playing is hard work (If you're not sure what i mean remember the last time you had to act professional for 8 straight hours) and cannot be sustained indefinitely. If he has to play the 'rock star' all the time and in front of anybody except his immediate and fairly isolated family then the family become a vent for all the suppressed feeling.

In this way having a family that he can dump his unwanted and un-marketable parts personality on becomes a necessity in order to continue to create the grandiose and ever dependent on the perception of others self image.

It's probably mostly unconscious so in his had he can blame the family for holding him back and may dream of a chance to 'free' himself from what's hindering him from greatness.

The bad thing is that devoted to him family may be a significant part of what he presents to the outside world as an evidence of his worth and feel seriously hurt if you threated to take it away from him in one way or another he may react out of that egoic need and from my experience with wanna-be-stars it ain't gonna be pretty.

He's getting a lot from the relationship in terms of emotional support in that way it seems.
 
pollinator
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I cannot even begin to express my gratitude towards you all. Since I first posted this thread, I've gone from "I want out, he's not doing what he should, I can't put my finger on why I don't think there's hope for us" to realizing what an incredibly unhealthy situation I am in. I have been mired in this for so many years that it's hard to even conceive that this might not be normal... especially since in my situation there was never anything terribly overt like physical or sexual abuse, and my husband is usually not mean to me.

I've just been thinking this was how all marriages were, which was so frustrating because I HATE being a wife and I HATE being married and I was starting to think everyone was just lying about loving their spouses after 5+ years and that marriage is just one big joke. I never expected it to be "easy" and I certainly never expected my husband to "make me happy" or "complete me" but I never expected to be totally miserable, overextended, and having to manage our entire life on my own. It's funny how I look at my behavior - my husband would probably complain about how I am not carefree anymore, how I am too regimented and strict but the honest truth is that's only come about as a result of years worth of overcompensating. It's like if you stopped using one arm entirely, or almost entirely, and used the other one almost exclusively, the other arm will quickly become stronger and out of proportionate to the unused arm. Or, in other words, someone has to take care of things, and it was always just me.

Whoever brought up the boiled frog analogy you are correct and I have been thinking about that for at least a week now, in regards to his anger especially. I still remember vaguely when I first saw it, after we were married (I never saw it in the year we were together beforehand) how discomfited I was but I brushed it off because he never actually hurt me. And he knew I would not tolerate physical abuse - I had one ex that tried it once, raised his hand to me, and my response was to punch him in the face and walk out the door - so that might be what keeps him in check, but still.

This morning my daughter got really angry and threw a toy because she was angry at her sister. This is the same daughter that has been talking a lot recently about how she doesn't like it when her dad gets mad and throws things. I sat her down and we talked about it - I told her that even though he does it, he is WRONG and it is WRONG to throw things when you get angry. I pointed out to her that she had been talking to me about disliking it when he did it, and now she was doing the same thing. I could almost see the wheels turning in her head.

But the thing is - it's heartbreaking for me to see it happen, and I won't let this continue. I see certain behaviors I picked up from my mom that contributed to this mess - my husband isn't an intentional abuser or neglecter or anything - I think I just enabled him for so long that there's no going back. I think if I had put my foot down from the get-go and demanded he hold up his end up the rope, if we didn't get divorced immediately I think he would have learned different habits. But, for so long, I let things go, covered up for him, sheltered him from the consequences of his actions. After our separation I was a lot better about it, but I think that is my biggest struggle as far as my part in the failure of our marriage.

I've been thinking, really thinking HARD about why I haven't asked him to leave yet. I feel guilty, that's a big part of it. The Christian world and my upbringing in a lot of ways, places marriage on this pedestal of sacredness, and it's something I am slowly shifting my gears on.

However - my biggest obstacle, and practicality, is the thought of CPS. We're living off grid, with no refrigerator, a compost bucket toilet, no hot water heater, no bathtub (kids bathe in a rubbermaid!), and a few other things. Now - I don't think my husband would be vindictive enough to call CPS, but I also know that you never really know! So, before I make the break (unless he gets tired of me not acting like the wife he is used to and brings it up first) I will be rectifying some things, might take a month or two. I just don't want to be the person that said "Wow, I never in a million years thought he would do THAT!" after CPS has come and taken my kids away. Lucky for me, I'm at the tail end of my busy season for my business, so I have a little cash to prepare with and sock away.

First thing up was a CO and smoke detector - bought them yesterday and installed them today.
Next up are a few things - I have a costco carport that is currently not being used and I'm going to hire my nephew to come stack our snow covered wood pile under it, and also build a pallet enclosure for the sawdust that will be covered under the carport.
I'm going to just hire a professional to repair the propane fridge that we have and set it up so I can use it.
I've also drawn up some plans for a nice enclosure I want to build for the bucket toilet and sawdust container, so that if you walk into the bathroom all you will see is a wooden bench with a toilet seat on it (and it will also hide/store the sawdust bucket and extra TP). Right now or toilet is just a sawdust bucket under a handicapped toilet seat thingy (you know, it looks like a 4 legged walker but it has a toilet seat in the middle of it), so it's kind of an eyesore and makes things look worse than they are.
The other big thing is that between trips to the dump, we keep our bags of trash in the bathroom to keep critters from going through it outside. It really gets to be quite the eyesore though. I'm going to look for some more pallets and build a trash enclosure out of them, so I can store bags of trash outside and not worry about messes being made.

All of this I should be able to get done within the next few weeks. That will get me dry firewood, a refrigerator, no bags of trash in the house and a semi-normalish looking toilet.

I've been looking online at various discussions on the topic and the general consensus seems to be that CPS just wants things to be clean and you have to be able to clean and cook properly, kids need to be clean, etc. There are no hard and fast rules about what homes have to be in, which is both a danger and a benefit. Since so much is up in the air, I want to hedge my bets so that I can present a clean, warm and sanitary home if the worst were to happen, and try to keep the house looking as "normal" as possible.

Anyway - I want to once again thank you all so much... you really have no NO NO idea how helpful you have all been. The variety of opinions and especially those of you who aren't pussyfooting around... it's been immensely helpful. I'll keep you all posted.
 
Hans Harker
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Bethany Dutch wrote:
I've been thinking, really thinking HARD about why I haven't asked him to leave yet. I feel guilty, that's a big part of it...



In the traditional Chinese philosophy pretty much everything can be contemplated in terms of being either yin or yang. So can be WILL.

Yang will would be what's everyday conscious decision making process consist of. It's fairly easy to observe and analyze.

Yin will is by nature hidden and cannot be understood in time of acting but only reveals itself to someone who reflects upon their actions from the perspective of long time consequences.
Yin will can be seen as your Spirit's will, a concept closer to what the Christian culture would call God's will. Basically no amount of hard thinking can even lick it

Congratulation on taking steps in the direction of you choosing.
 
steward
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Bethany Dutch wrote:
All of this I should be able to get done within the next few weeks. That will get me dry firewood, a refrigerator, no bags of trash in the house and a semi-normalish looking toilet.


Congrats for finding the courage to change what you can. Just getting all that off your mind may change how you feel about yourself, your resiliency and what you need from the situation. Not being afraid of CPS regardless of what he's doing or not will be a huge destressor. There is the possibility that it will look different or at least more clear once you get to the other side of that very focused task list. Good luck!
 
Jami McBride
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Personally I would not be to afraid of CPS -
Document his compliance with how you all are living now, and his angry outbursts toward the kids. If CPS is called all they will do is issue a list of changes they want you to make regarding the living situation, and then they will do a follow up visits to make sure you comply. They will keep a record of the report of the home-situation and your compliance to rectify the issues listed. Worse case, you are in the local CPS files showing compliance and desire for home-improvements. After a few years if nothing more happens the old files are removed.

If your husband takes you to court you have your documentation of his actions, and CPS records that you took steps to make a good home. Document, document, document . . . . CPS also looks at if you knew of harm to the kids and did nothing. I'm not saying throwing things is hard-abuse and on their radar, however CPS might count your not taking action to stop it as being a mark against you. I just don't know. So document what your doing to make the home situation better, like your lists posted here, before and after pics, etc.

It really takes a lot before CPS removes children, they are required by law to intervene to fix situations and keep families together. Just pulling kids cost the government money so things have to be life threatening for this to occur -OR- consistently repeating showing a pattern of continuing abuse with no hope of change. You really do not fall in any of their targets for removal. If anything your conversations here show your concern about the current home situation and desire for its change. Focus on safe, clean and getting better.

I don't remember if the girls are home-schooled or not, but if they are: Make sure they are involved in groups with children their own ages. Groups like 4-H, dance, music groups and such, they can be private groups as well - the world expects children to be socialized - CI (community inclusion) as part of a 'healthy' upbringing.

If I think of anything else I'll post back.

 
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Bethany Dutch wrote:
So to sum it up - why do I stay? Why didn't I leave for good before, in '07? I think because a part of me sees the potential in him and wants to believe he can/will make a change. I feel like as a Christian I am supposed to not get divorced unless there has been infidelity or abandonment - which I would really say his actions are - but I think I felt like it has taken me this long to really confront the fact that no, things are NOT going to change, will NOT get better.



Here's my opinion, as a Christian. It sounds like your husband is not stepping up to the job of being a father (or husband, for that matter). He's not following his vows. He's busy following his dream--which isn't bad in and of itself--but it's bad because it's making him tired, frustrated and he's taking it out on his family in dangerous ways. That's not safe.

I remember reading, years back, a book (I think it was by James Dobson) about Christian family life. In it, the author wrote about separation for when a husband (or wife) has become dangerous. You kick him out until he gets his behavior under control. It's not divorce, it's saying "I love you and want to be with you, but you are dangerous and destructive and not protecting your family. There is a place for you in our lives, but not when you act like this. When you can be a father to these children, than I will welcome you back." I know you said you've done something like this before, and you said it worked for a while. Maybe he needs a wake-up call? He might be so frustrated with not being able to do all the things he wants in life (be a rockstar, homestead, be a loving father and a caring husband), and that is coming out in him throwing things. I can understand that, but it doesn't make it okay. Maybe he needs to be thrown out on his rump until he works out what his real priorities are?

I firmly believe in doing everything possible to make a marriage work. A marriage is a reflection of God's relationship with us. He died to form our "marriage" to Him. Total selflessness on His part. It's easy to get wrapped up in our own (selfish) desires for how we want things to be. Marriage is about selflessly working together to glorify God in whatever way He's called you to. We all do this, and your husband seems to be doing it a lot. It sounds like he needs a big wake-up call and reminder of just what he has vowed to do.

By being separated, rather than "divorced," you've shown him he needs to change his ways, you've followed your vows, you're following your beliefs, you've protected your children, and you just might get a new-and-improved husband from it. I think that's what I would do if things got that bad in my marriage, but then I like to think the best of people (often to my own detriment). But, I'm not in your shoes, and I pray God leads you to the right decision for your family, and for your husband to get a big wake-up call!

Bethany Dutch wrote:

First thing up was a CO and smoke detector - bought them yesterday and installed them today.
Next up are a few things - I have a costco carport that is currently not being used and I'm going to hire my nephew to come stack our snow covered wood pile under it, and also build a pallet enclosure for the sawdust that will be covered under the carport.
I'm going to just hire a professional to repair the propane fridge that we have and set it up so I can use it.
I've also drawn up some plans for a nice enclosure I want to build for the bucket toilet and sawdust container, so that if you walk into the bathroom all you will see is a wooden bench with a toilet seat on it (and it will also hide/store the sawdust bucket and extra TP). Right now or toilet is just a sawdust bucket under a handicapped toilet seat thingy (you know, it looks like a 4 legged walker but it has a toilet seat in the middle of it), so it's kind of an eyesore and makes things look worse than they are.
The other big thing is that between trips to the dump, we keep our bags of trash in the bathroom to keep critters from going through it outside. It really gets to be quite the eyesore though. I'm going to look for some more pallets and build a trash enclosure out of them, so I can store bags of trash outside and not worry about messes being made.

All of this I should be able to get done within the next few weeks. That will get me dry firewood, a refrigerator, no bags of trash in the house and a semi-normalish looking toilet.

I've been looking online at various discussions on the topic and the general consensus seems to be that CPS just wants things to be clean and you have to be able to clean and cook properly, kids need to be clean, etc. There are no hard and fast rules about what homes have to be in, which is both a danger and a benefit. Since so much is up in the air, I want to hedge my bets so that I can present a clean, warm and sanitary home if the worst were to happen, and try to keep the house looking as "normal" as possible.

Anyway - I want to once again thank you all so much... you really have no NO NO idea how helpful you have all been. The variety of opinions and especially those of you who aren't pussyfooting around... it's been immensely helpful. I'll keep you all posted.


+1 Good job getting so much done with so much on your plate!
 
Bethany Dutch
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Well - I told him tonight I wanted a divorce. He kinda expected it (we have barely been speaking or interacting the last few weeks) but he is really shattered. I feel bad, but also relieved. Kind of a mixture of relief and empathy, along with my own sadness that this "era" is ending.

He doesn't really understand, and I kinda wonder if he ever will. His first question was "Who will finish the house?" My response "ME." he looked very doubtful at that... but I can't say I didn't expect the house to be brought up. He feels like he just did SO much and I expected too much... I hope he eventually understands but I took the route of less talking and explaining tonight, just answering his questions as they came up. I've already talked to him about these issues ad nauseum, for almost our entire marriage.

And now, while we've dealt with this issue, now we have to tell the kids Which is totally going to suck.

In any case I wanted to tell everyone thank you so much for your help - you all have been really great and the honesty was just so helpful to me in coming to this point.
 
pollinator
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I suspect that the kids may have some idea things are not OK anyway

David
 
Rufus Laggren
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Good luck, Bethany. Stay in touch.


Rufus
 
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I'm married to an artist. I am type "A" and happily old enough to appreciate the gentliness and soulfullness that he wraps this family in. He's wired so much differenly than I. This homestead is my dream which he supports and I, in turn must support his dream. It's the rhythm and duel support of one another's dreams that make this work. I have a tendency to mad-dash to my task list as he lives in a very different mental world. It's mutual give/take that makes relationships work, the mandate to stop long enough to sit in your partner's seat for a while and assess their lives. I have to intentially remind myself to do this with regularity when I feel any frustration brewing.

You knew his passion, which he put on the back burner to get a job, commute, support your passions & family and still allow himself a moment to have his own passion. Not easy in the best of circumstances. My husband would prefer to be in his shop, pounding iron and creating all day, every day but he happily pitches in many days a week and I happily leave him to his world for many days in return. Mutual respect is what makes this work, and if there's not that, it's impossible. As much as this is your life, it is also his. It may be a good exercise to take a moment, and write a similar thread from his perspective (not a public one, just a private honest one). No partnership can flurish if it not approached with a vantage point from every participant.
 
Bethany Dutch
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I was just thinking about this thread today. It's been about 2.5 years since I asked him to leave and just now I finally have the finances to send in the divorce paperwork, which as of this evening is on my desk waiting to be mailed in tomorrow.

It's been an interesting road, that's for sure. I definitely made the right choice. So much has happened since then that it would be difficult to even go into it.

The first year we were apart (2015) I spent just about as much money as he did on his band the previous year and I got SO much done. Since then I've gotten the plumbing finished, hot water heater in, bathtub and shower (yay!), drywall finished, textured and painted, I finally have a kitchen with actual counters & cabinets, a real sink with a faucet and stuff, got my washing machine in, set up a line dryer. built a 25' hugel in my garden, fenced the whole thing off against deer, got meat rabbits, guineas, added more chickens, and I could go on. I've still got stuff to do - will be putting up siding in September and that's my last big $$ project for the house itself before I do septic and/or some kind of power system whether that be grid power or a fancy solar system. Right now I just use a generator plus a couple batteries for storage to use with lights and charging my computer, etc.

Very importantly, I am a better parent solo. He is also a better parent solo. The kids are more relaxed because I am more relaxed. I've had some tough times financially and had to go get a day job for a bit but now I'm back to 100% self employed (graphic designer) but the truth is even with the tough finances of the last couple years life was STILL much better because I didn't have the stress of a partner who was not partnering.

I knew going in that he could take one of two roads and I'm glad he chose the responsible road - he cooperatively co-parents with me and has not fought me on anything. It makes a big difference for the kids and I hope someday we may be able to reclaim some sort of friendship, although I could never feel romantic about him again.

I wanted to tell everyone thanks for giving me their input. I spent a lot of years trying to change myself or figure out a way to encourage him to change but I think when it came down to it I needed some people to tell me "Hey no that's not normal or healthy and you don't have to live that way." So, thanks. I know 100% that I am on the correct path. Life is good these days, not sure if I'll ever be trusting enough to get involved again but I'm fairly young still so who knows. But in the meantime I'm plugging away on my homestead and loving my solitude so much.
 
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Thank you for the update, on how things are going.

Glad you've got things turning around for you, too. May it be good from here on out.
 
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Scott Strough wrote:I am thinking you married him, had kids with him. You need to stick with him. You have your dreams, he has his dreams. Make them the same. Build a studio at the homestead. Better yet make him build a studio at the homestead. While he is at it, he can finish the plumbing.



Did you read the part about him throwing temper tantrums and throwing things around his children? And his children being afraid of him? She cannot "make him" build a studio on the homestead. She cannot "make him" do anything.

One thing for sure that applies to him and everyone else "whose actions are always contradictory to his words" - always believe the ACTIONS when they do not match the words.
 
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