liquid gold - Urine as fertilizer!

The link about urine storage for the purpose of sterilization seems credible to me, although I've never done it myself so I can't vouch for it. Ammonia is certainly toxic, so it makes sense to me that the decomposition of urea to ammonia could eventually sterilize the solution. It's important to note that storage changes the solution chemically to something that does not resemble urine, but rather a very high pH ammonia solution. So I would think it would need to be diluted so that it doesn't burn the plants. When fresh urine is diluted and used in an aerated soil, the potential for pathogen problems is very low. That's because the urine itself starts out sterile, and when applied to a healthy microherd, it will be oxidized and biologically and chemically consumed before pathogens get a chance to get established. So, I personally don't see the need to put a sterile solution into a container which is contaminated with pathogens, which then must be stored to kill those same pathogens.

Nick Garbarino wrote:The link about urine storage for the purpose of sterilization seems credible to me, although I've never done it myself so I can't vouch for it. Ammonia is certainly toxic, so it makes sense to me that the decomposition of urea to ammonia could eventually sterilize the solution. It's important to note that storage changes the solution chemically to something that does not resemble urine, but rather a very high pH ammonia solution. So I would think it would need to be diluted so that it doesn't burn the plants. When fresh urine is diluted and used in an aerated soil, the potential for pathogen problems is very low. That's because the urine itself starts out sterile, and when applied to a healthy microherd, it will be oxidized and biologically and chemically consumed before pathogens get a chance to get established. So, I personally don't see the need to put a sterile solution into a container which is contaminated with pathogens, which then must be stored to kill those same pathogens.

I agree...and find the idea behind the sterilization somewhat similar to the raw milk issues being debated everywhere.

Nick, thanks for your input. I'll take that into consideration. Perhaps I'll try both ways and see which one seems to be the best for me and my situation. I guess I still need to know about the temperature of the urine in storage, that is, if over 20 degrees Centigrade will harm it, help it or have no effect.

Dustin,

Here a some links to urine research papers:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100022488?secret_password=3blmil8nhxsv7qzysel

http://www.scribd.com/doc/100022482?secret_password=11k7sdx40jfbz5k8knyz


I read a lot about this topic 3 years ago (and downloaded any papers I could find on the web) before I started using urine in my own vegetable garden.

The stuff works great.

My own conclusion from reading the literature was that it is sterile and all the recommendations about storage and heat only are to kill off bad stuff from fecal contamination.
So if you aren't using a separation toilet, i.e. you pee directly into a separate container, then it shouldn't be a worry.
Also, yes urine, can be feeding source for bad stuff once it is in the environment, but that is true of any fertilizer.
Also other organic fertilizers based on animal manures or animal parts are probably much more risky than source separated urine.
So by using urine instead of store bought organic fertilizer, I'm probably greatly reducing the risk of any harmful contamination in my vegetable garden.

Good to have more information Eric. The second document has been helpful. It appears that the hotter it is, the less likely it will be harmful. Since everyone in my household is healthy,

This is my plan of action...

1. Store urine for 1 month over 20 degrees Centigrade. (as storage and temperature does not present a problem for me)

2. Apply urine with a watering can and diluted 10 parts water to 1 part urine. , not aerosol style. Not sprayed in the air.

3. Not applied to root vegetables. (for now)

4. Stop application 1 month prior to harvesting any crops. (I'll use normal food waste compost during this time period)

Thanks for your help everyone.

Today my (Chinese) acupuncturist gave me very specific instructions for using urine as a fertilizer the traditional Chinese way:

Collect urine from your family into a container with a lid.

Once full, set sealed container in direct sunlight (presumably during a warm season) for four weeks. Traditionally a roadside is the best place for this because the subtle vibrations in the earth from horse traffic gently agitates the urine.

After four months this liquid's properties have changed quite a bit. Apply directly and undiluted to the base of your plants. Your vegetables (he grows mostly tomatoes and cucumbers) will have incomparable flavor and everyone will be really jealous of you.

That's it!

After reading this thread and many of the links posted therein I saw fermentation only mentioned... maybe I missed something? Anyway he swears the quality is better this way than using fresh/diluted urine. His wife (also an acupuncturist) agrees. He emphasized that it is a SECRET traditional farming method and I was like, "ok, whatever, James," but then was surprised not to find a comparable method described in this forum (that I could find). Any thoughts?

As I'm currently living in Taiwan, I can attest that the old fashioned Chinese farmers do indeed use their urine to grow crops. My neighbor has been using this method, I will have to ask him if he uses it right away or lets it sit. Though I suspect he's letting it sit outside in a 55 gallon drum along with his food scraps and fermenting it before use. Sometimes I've smelt it... However he seems to add water through the use of rain.
I have a few gallons of bottled urine that is getting close to 10 months old, I hope to extract some potassium nitrate, or saltpeter through a filtering and drying process used to make gun powder.

Hmm, so which is better -fresh or old? And how much and how often? I use only pink salt, not chemical salt (except when I eat some ready stuff, but I get unsalted version, when I can and add my salt), so hopefully that is better for the garden. Do I save all of our urine or just once a week or so?

"Some just have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."  Brilliant!

Nite Tiger wrote:I've used urine before, years ago, in response to a forum thread, and have never stopped. I've found that 1 cup urine per gallon of water is a good start, unlikely to overload even the lightest feeders, and provides a ready boost for heavier feeders, without risking salt buildup. I've found "morning water" to be most beneficial. I usually capture that in a 2 liter coke bottle, and use it within an hour. I have found no way to store liquid urine over time without it developing an objectionable smell, so I prefer immediate use.

I also get fewer objections from the wife this way There were uncomfortable times in the past following the question "Hey dear, what's in this jug under the sink?"

I currently use it on my outside hugel bed by collecting my "morning water", carrying it out to the garden, applying it evenly to the base of the plants, then giving a watering sufficient to dilute it properly in the soil. Just once a week or so, and my garden LOVES it. I highly recommend it, for any garden - the plants just LOVE it, ALL of them

Dave Bennett wrote:

Robert Ray wrote:
For those of you interested in humanure, composting toilets, urine diversion.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=human-urine-is-an-effective-fertilizer

My old toilet looks just like that.  Hopefully the property manager won't ever discover that some of the compost I give him for his flower beds is partially composted humanure. 

And here I thought that was a picture of MY toilet....

I actually ran some little experiments about 20 years back on ten potted dwarf cavendish banana plants and urine at various concentrations.  I found that a ratio of 7 parts water to 1 part human-urine was about the most the plants could take.  I may go back next year and set up a trial for common vegitables and seedlings and see how and what they do.  Of course different people produce different levels of uric acid for various reasons, diet, hydration levels etc.  Just a little footnote in the grand picture of urine use for plants.

One thing that is buried in the original article and overlooked in this comment board is the effect of the ash.

I quote the article: "The beetroots from the urine- and urine/ash–fertilized plants were found to be 10 percent and 27 percent larger by mass, respectively, than those grown in mineral fertilizer."

Anyway, great news for those that can pee directly on the plants or live close to where their plants are. Not so much for the more than half of the world population that live in cities... I agree with the article in the sense that the sewage infrastructure is not going to be revolutionized for making urine a product. We would certainly have a lot to gain with that, primarily reducing the volume of "waste" to be chemically treated and all the potable water associated with the process.

Here is an excerpt from the building a better world... audiobook that talks about this:

If you take medications and extra vitamins and such, then I do not recommend utilizing urine.  Appreciate, you will urinate out much of what you think you didn't in medicine and vitamins that people take.  This is not generally a positive thing for plants.

One of my new garden resolutions is to use my urine more effectively in the garden. Our indoor toilet is attached to a sceptic system, so my nutrients are lost a little there. I do wee direct outside, but not on my crops as yet.
It is interesting that adding woodash gives a more balanced fertiliser, and it's all free....

Harry Soloman wrote:If you take medications and extra vitamins and such, then I do not recommend utilizing urine.  Appreciate, you will urinate out much of what you think you didn't in medicine and vitamins that people take.  This is not generally a positive thing for plants.

I've heard this so often, but it is never very specific or even backed up (that I recall having seen, anyway) - I'm sure it is true in some cases, but does anyone here know more specifically what medicines might be problematic, or in which contexts?

This is not an attack on Harry, of course, or anyone else, I'm just frustrated that something which might be important is so hard to find specific info on. My reaction whenever this comes up is always that it has to be mostly a theoretical concern, but equally I am sure there are particular medicines and situations where it is a real problem.

Adding vitamins to your soil is a good thing:

https://permies.com/t/59030/Vitamins-Plants

I feel adding pee from someone who takes medication very well could be a bad thing.

These might help:

https://permies.com/t/91663/talk-soil-minerals#750509

https://permies.com/t/130579/Medication-Chart-poop-pee

Especially because a lot of medications could be synthetic and we do not know what these are made of.

E Nordlie wrote:does anyone here know more specifically what medicines might be problematic, or in which contexts?  

I don't know. I always think if it is going to be filtered by healthy soil biota (if) then there is not much to worry about. Some medicines getting into groundwater or run off can be more problematic - I believe even caffeine is very persistent.