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!!!!!!!! Ant Wofati Progression  RSS feed

 
pollinator
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...
SEQUENCE39.jpg
[Thumbnail for SEQUENCE39.jpg]
WOFATI - composite wall exterior siding
SEQUENCE40.jpg
[Thumbnail for SEQUENCE40.jpg]
WOFATI - perspective view of front entry
SEQUENCE41.jpg
[Thumbnail for SEQUENCE41.jpg]
WOFATI - Paul standing in front entry
 
Davin Hoyt
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Make it rain apples!!!
SEQUENCE42.jpg
[Thumbnail for SEQUENCE42.jpg]
WOFATI - What do you think Paul?
SEQUENCE43.jpg
[Thumbnail for SEQUENCE43.jpg]
WOFATI - Perspective view with Paul
Filename: Wofati_Design00_25_SHEDS_V8_INORDER.skp
Description: WOFATI - Davin Hoyt
File size: 3 megabytes
 
pollinator
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Did you see my post ship lap log wofati
I need a lot more practice with sketch up but I think it conveys the concept. My idea was to combine the idea of 0.7 & 0.8 with earthship water collection roof. by using vertical log walls and arched ceilings it reduces corners protruding into the earth berm. The arched walls also simplify rolling logs up to make the ceiling without a hoist to lift them.

In my youth here in the Gig Harbor, WA area many vertical log houses were built. Austen & Erickson Lumber would pay retired and off season fisherman for logs they fell and pealed on their land then would mill the sides with a groove so they could be splined together. There are many examples now 60 years old, from small squares to large ramblers where the logs look almost new. because the logs were milled on both sides they did not crack on the surface as they dried. The man that builds horizontal log houses around here has a huge crack in the middle log next to the front door of his show house; not a very good sales point.
 
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I like the shed roof over the main space instead of an added gable roof - considerably simpler and more amateur-friendly.
I don't see the structural stage of support for the main shed roof planks... I presume they would be longitudinal beams fairly closely spaced for the about 8' (?) spans between main bents? I get the fact that making the main cross-beams level instead of at the shed roof slope would be easier for amateurs to build, but then there is the complication of supporting the shed slope at varying heights above those beams. Would it be easier overall to build in the shed slope with the main cross beams, also getting more spaciousness inside?

I didn't see any overall dimensions in the recent video; it looks like around a 12' x 24' interior volume 10' high, with 10' clear between main posts, with main posts spaced 8' on center. Is that close?

The porches look longer than the would need to be for earth to stay on the slopes, and the distance from interior wall to entry openings would seriously diminish the amount of light that gets into the interior. The slopes of the porch roofs are so long that the entry holes might be more visible from the air than more steeply sloped openings. From large parts of the interior there would be scarcely more than a glimpse of the outdoors and daylight. Shorter and steeper porch roof slopes would help with that. Overall it would be a very dim interior which would need supplemental lighting except during sunny days. I don't see it being attractive to live in except in a survival mode.

The corner lighting in a previous video would allow better lighting and more comfort, and could be combined with the arched entries desired.

To alleviate the space constraints without making significantly more big structure, I would favor the idea put forth elsewhere of adding some form of slope to the sidewalls of the main space, expanding the floor without significantly expanding the roof. Something like short (5-6' high) side posts with angled beams at 45 degrees up to the main wall tops would give 3 or 4 extra feet of fully usable space on each side, or half again as much floor space without altering the main structure. It would also as Hans Quistorff mentioned ease the poking of the interior corners into the earth envelope.
 
Davin Hoyt
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Glenn Herbert wrote:I like the shed roof over the main space instead of an added gable roof - considerably simpler and more amateur-friendly.
I don't see the structural stage of support for the main shed roof planks... I presume they would be longitudinal beams fairly closely spaced for the about 8' (?) spans between main bents? I get the fact that making the main cross-beams level instead of at the shed roof slope would be easier for amateurs to build, but then there is the complication of supporting the shed slope at varying heights above those beams. Would it be easier overall to build in the shed slope with the main cross beams, also getting more spaciousness inside?

I didn't see any overall dimensions in the recent video; it looks like around a 12' x 24' interior volume 10' high, with 10' clear between main posts, with main posts spaced 8' on center. Is that close?

The porches look longer than the would need to be for earth to stay on the slopes, and the distance from interior wall to entry openings would seriously diminish the amount of light that gets into the interior. The slopes of the porch roofs are so long that the entry holes might be more visible from the air than more steeply sloped openings. From large parts of the interior there would be scarcely more than a glimpse of the outdoors and daylight. Shorter and steeper porch roof slopes would help with that. Overall it would be a very dim interior which would need supplemental lighting except during sunny days. I don't see it being attractive to live in except in a survival mode.

The corner lighting in a previous video would allow better lighting and more comfort, and could be combined with the arched entries desired.

To alleviate the space constraints without making significantly more big structure, I would favor the idea put forth elsewhere of adding some form of slope to the sidewalls of the main space, expanding the floor without significantly expanding the roof. Something like short (5-6' high) side posts with angled beams at 45 degrees up to the main wall tops would give 3 or 4 extra feet of fully usable space on each side, or half again as much floor space without altering the main structure. It would also as Hans Quistorff mentioned ease the poking of the interior corners into the earth envelope.



I disagree with the A-frame idea for (these) underground structures.

Note: 1.) A rocket stove/heater has yet to be incorporated. 2.) Maybe a (couple of) long cold-sink pipe(s) could be incorporated. At the end of each sink pipe, a formation could create heat from solar rays and exchange air?

Here are a couple of artifacts for our conversation...
base_wofati_D_0_1.JPG
[Thumbnail for base_wofati_D_0_1.JPG]
A floorplan sketch featured in a previous video...
base_wofati_D_0_2.JPG
[Thumbnail for base_wofati_D_0_2.JPG]
Another floorplan sketch featured in a previous video...
 
Davin Hoyt
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Glenn Herbert wrote:I like the shed roof over the main space instead of an added gable roof - considerably simpler and more amateur-friendly.
I don't see the structural stage of support for the main shed roof planks... I presume they would be longitudinal beams fairly closely spaced for the about 8' (?) spans between main bents? I get the fact that making the main cross-beams level instead of at the shed roof slope would be easier for amateurs to build, but then there is the complication of supporting the shed slope at varying heights above those beams. Would it be easier overall to build in the shed slope with the main cross beams, also getting more spaciousness inside?

I didn't see any overall dimensions in the recent video; it looks like around a 12' x 24' interior volume 10' high, with 10' clear between main posts, with main posts spaced 8' on center. Is that close?

The porches look longer than the would need to be for earth to stay on the slopes, and the distance from interior wall to entry openings would seriously diminish the amount of light that gets into the interior. The slopes of the porch roofs are so long that the entry holes might be more visible from the air than more steeply sloped openings. From large parts of the interior there would be scarcely more than a glimpse of the outdoors and daylight. Shorter and steeper porch roof slopes would help with that. Overall it would be a very dim interior which would need supplemental lighting except during sunny days. I don't see it being attractive to live in except in a survival mode.

The corner lighting in a previous video would allow better lighting and more comfort, and could be combined with the arched entries desired.

To alleviate the space constraints without making significantly more big structure, I would favor the idea put forth elsewhere of adding some form of slope to the sidewalls of the main space, expanding the floor without significantly expanding the roof. Something like short (5-6' high) side posts with angled beams at 45 degrees up to the main wall tops would give 3 or 4 extra feet of fully usable space on each side, or half again as much floor space without altering the main structure. It would also as Hans Quistorff mentioned ease the poking of the interior corners into the earth envelope.



Here are a few more artifacts...
pic_dim_01.jpg
[Thumbnail for pic_dim_01.jpg]
Dimension Explanation (of simplified wofati)
pic_dim_02.jpg
[Thumbnail for pic_dim_02.jpg]
Dimension Explanation (of simplified wofati)
pic_dim_03.jpg
[Thumbnail for pic_dim_03.jpg]
Dimension Explanation (of simplified wofati)
 
Glenn Herbert
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Thanks for the added information! I think I see 10' 4" on centers of the main post rows? That would give about 11-12' interior wall clearance, and 9' clear between posts depending on post thicknesses.

A simple structure is fine if that is the brief. I just think the added work (all less difficult than the main structure work) of the bump-outs would be worthwhile if I were doing it.

I see that the roof "planking" is actually logs spanning the main girders. I would feel more comfortable with them larger than shown to hold a couple feet of earth on a 10' clear span, but that would be taken care of in the structural design.

Have you done any testing in the daylight aspect? I think a mockup to simulate the lighting you would get from the hobbit doors at the end of the porch would be valuable.
 
Davin Hoyt
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Not sure how to measure the light.
JAN30_NOON_NORTH.jpg
[Thumbnail for JAN30_NOON_NORTH.jpg]
View North from inside January 30 at noon
JAN30_NOON_SOUTH.jpg
[Thumbnail for JAN30_NOON_SOUTH.jpg]
View South from inside January 30 at noon
 
Hans Quistorff
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I tried to do a walk through with the file you posted but I could not get inside with that file. I posted more on the vertical log walls Ship lap log go to last post. I was thinking 12" or larger logs lapped on the sides and ends and into a sill log would be strong enough that you would not need the big support posts which would free that space and complexity.
If one was not so concerned about invisibility from satellite a greenhouse roof on each end would bring in more light and be a useful space. Also the bottom of the berm should have old wood in it to make it into Hugleculture.
The square ribbed acrylic sheets diffuse light more than most glazing. I wish I knew a location of a roof made with it that I could check on Google Earth.
 
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Cement wing walls on this award winning design...
brushfire.jpg
[Thumbnail for brushfire.jpg]
This is a screen shot of something facebook recommended to me.
 
Hans Quistorff
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Seems like appropriate design for southern hemisphere with hot climate. Interior shading with porch roof. Evening shading from existing trees. Radiant heat from the wing walls would probably make it comfortable on the patio with the onset of cool evening. Wonder how the heat transfer from the wing walls is handled. There are several videos of Earthships being built in Australia.
 
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Sorry, but this design doesn't look like a place I would like to live in, not even for a few days. There's no direct sunlight shining in and there's no view from indoors to outdoors. Paul may have a reason for wanting such a 'wofati', and of course it's always good to experiment ... Maybe this is not meant to be a house to live in?
 
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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Sorry, but this design doesn't look like a place I would like to live in, not even for a few days. There's no direct sunlight shining in and there's no view from indoors to outdoors. Paul may have a reason for wanting such a 'wofati', and of course it's always good to experiment ... Maybe this is not meant to be a house to live in?



People can view out of the structure on two sides. Direct sun light may not reach the interior insulated living area, but indirect light will. This is "Davin's base wofati design". I have yet to collaborate with others.
 
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A simple change of moving the doors and/or windows a couple of feet toward the center of the wall would allow actual views to the exterior from the bulk of the interior space. As originally shown, it would be impossible to see any daylight from the center of the space, only from the edges. I agree with Inge, I would never live in a space with this lighting short of dire necessity.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
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Davin Hoyt wrote: ... People can view out of the structure on two sides. Direct sun light may not reach the interior insulated living area, but indirect light will. This is "Davin's base wofati design". I have yet to collaborate with others.


Davin, can you tell me why you have chosen not to let direct sunlight into the interior?
I know what's the problem with direct sunlight in hot climates. But in colder climates (like in the Ant Village), direct sunlight through the window(s) in wintertime heats the room. I live in a moderate climate, with cloudy, rainy, winters. I feel happy when sometimes there is a more sunny day (often freezing cold) in the wintertime. Sunlight helps against 'winter depression'. And because of the warmth of the sun (infrared) no extra heating is needed.
 
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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Davin, can you tell me why you have chosen not to let direct sunlight into the interior



From what I remember, Paul specifically didn't want any passive solar gain into the wofatis as he wants to test and develop the thermal battery idea.  Once that's been thoroughly experimented with, then it will be time to mix the two methods.  But for now it's very much an experimental design and the idea is to test one thing at a time so the results are easier to interpret.
 
Inge Leonora-den Ouden
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Burra Maluca wrote:

Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:Davin, can you tell me why you have chosen not to let direct sunlight into the interior



From what I remember, Paul specifically didn't want any passive solar gain into the wofatis as he wants to test and develop the thermal battery idea.  Once that's been thoroughly experimented with, then it will be time to mix the two methods.  But for now it's very much an experimental design and the idea is to test one thing at a time so the results are easier to interpret.


Thank you Burra Maluca. I thought this could be the reason. Probably I missed it, not looking all videos in the topic.
 
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Going by the "January 30 noon south" perspective, you would get little to no direct solar gain into the heated space unless you had an all-glass door. The south porch would definitely be warmed some (unless the wind was howling) to reduce the conductive loss through that wall for a few hours but that would be minimal.

The wofati interior on its own without human interaction would stabilize at the annual soil temperature. Even two or three feet of dry earth on top would still transmit some heat, and the temperature would tend to get several degrees warmer by late summer and several degrees cooler by late winter. So it would have to depend on occupants' body and activity heat, plus actively operating ventilation to let hot air in in the summer, to raise the average internal temperature. The question is how much active heat addition is needed to balance the increased heat loss in winter from an elevated internal temperature. A significant experiment would be to construct two identical wofatis side by side, and leave one sealed while occupying the other to see what the difference is.
 
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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

Davin Hoyt wrote: ... People can view out of the structure on two sides. Direct sun light may not reach the interior insulated living area, but indirect light will. This is "Davin's base wofati design". I have yet to collaborate with others.


Davin, can you tell me why you have chosen not to let direct sunlight into the interior?
I know what's the problem with direct sunlight in hot climates. But in colder climates (like in the Ant Village), direct sunlight through the window(s) in wintertime heats the room. I live in a moderate climate, with cloudy, rainy, winters. I feel happy when sometimes there is a more sunny day (often freezing cold) in the wintertime. Sunlight helps against 'winter depression'. And because of the warmth of the sun (infrared) no extra heating is needed.



I don't remember talking to Paul about not letting direct light into the insulated interior. Instead, I try to analyze the possible degradation of structures due to natural weather activities. There are two points that come to my mind as I search my memory:  1) hobbit hole opening per Paul's request. 2) cover of the wing walls per my attention to the life of the structure.
 
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Davin Hoyt wrote:I don't remember talking to Paul about not letting direct light into the insulated interior. Instead, I try to analyze the possible degradation of structures due to natural weather activities. There are two points that come to my mind as I search my memory:  1) hobbit hole opening per Paul's request. 2) cover of the wing walls per my attention to the life of the structure.


Davin, what is the meaning of this structure then? Is it meant for people to live in, or is it only an experiment?
 
Davin Hoyt
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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

Davin Hoyt wrote:I don't remember talking to Paul about not letting direct light into the insulated interior. Instead, I try to analyze the possible degradation of structures due to natural weather activities. There are two points that come to my mind as I search my memory:  1) hobbit hole opening per Paul's request. 2) cover of the wing walls per my attention to the life of the structure.


Davin, what is the meaning of this structure then? Is it meant for people to live in, or is it only an experiment?



It is meant for year-round human inhabitants.

In short, when I went to Wheaton Labs, I was asked to create something that would guide people building wofatis. I documented and digested Wofatis for awhile. Then documented my own wofati prototype (subject here). This specific wofati is a design; a prescription.
 
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Davin Hoyt wrote:...
It is meant for year-round human inhabitants.

In short, when I went to Wheaton Labs, I was asked to create something that would guide people building wofatis. I documented and digested Wofatis for awhile. Then documented my own wofati prototype (subject here). This specific wofati is a design; a prescription.


Thank you Davin. So it is a proto-type, meaning this design can be changed (adjusted) to fit the needs of the potential inhabitant. Right?  
 
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Inge Leonora-den Ouden wrote:

Davin Hoyt wrote:...
It is meant for year-round human inhabitants.

In short, when I went to Wheaton Labs, I was asked to create something that would guide people building wofatis. I documented and digested Wofatis for awhile. Then documented my own wofati prototype (subject here). This specific wofati is a design; a prescription.


Thank you Davin. So it is a proto-type, meaning this design can be changed (adjusted) to fit the needs of the potential inhabitant. Right?  



Totally!
 
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The structural engineering to size the logs for this particular shell would be very useful. Sizing structural members by feel when a builder has little experience (as I expect would be the case for many wofati builders) is obviously asking for trouble or wasted timber.
 
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Glenn Herbert wrote:The structural engineering to size the logs for this particular shell would be very useful. Sizing structural members by feel when a builder has little experience (as I expect would be the case for many wofati builders) is obviously asking for trouble or wasted timber.



Another thing that comes to mind... are the nails used to pin these members in place. I saw them in use (being placed) on the berm shed at base camp last summer.
 
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UPDATE:

This "Topic" has turned into a "Wofati Prototype"; mainly because of my lack of on-site access to wofatis at Wheaton Labs.

When I last visited Wheaton Labs (Summer of 2017), Paul reviewed my (Winter of 2016) YouTube video presentation (found in thread above).

Now, I am revisiting the subject.

Paul's notes, as I recorded them, are as follows:
1) Posts need to go 6' deep. Tractor forced. Small amount of gravel below.
2) Base level should be dug in low. The Finished Floor (F.F.) should be higher. So that steps on up-hill side are not needed. Instead, you would exit and progress downward. This would, in theory, allow post bottoms more separation from water shed of mountain.
3) Widen opening; (making it more round?) Allowing more light in.
4) Duff layer on the wing walls may become an infestation problem, maybe "slip straw" instead?
5) (He) would like for the up-hill wing walls to open out more. Allowing more light in.
6) Instead of a shed roof, make a flat roof, and allow the lowest layers of back-fill soil to slope the membrane for water shed.
 
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Getting in the spirit... I saw value in these perspectives.
 
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I recalled this morning that the point of this thread was for me to develop drawing information that could instruct an Ant to build a wofati on their plot at the lab.

Then, Paul would have something to point to when explaining the material and construction limitations set upon the lab.

This is where I'm going. Remind me if I forget.
 
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The "Hobbit doors" aren't shown as anything but an opening (where "Paul" is standing). Are these intended to actually eventually have doors installed? If so, having them so sloped would be a snow problem - if they opened inward they could jam due to weight, and I don't want to even think about how they'd trap someone if they opened outward!
 
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Jay Angler wrote:The "Hobbit doors" aren't shown



The arc-ed openings lead to a covered patio area, and do not have doors. But good points!
 
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This is most current.

Imagine dirt layers, duff layers, and moisture barriers piled on top of this.

Ready for more comments.

Personally, I don't like the amount of work involved with wing-wall roofs and wing-wall cob surfaces.
WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic07.jpg
[Thumbnail for WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic07.jpg]
wofati section cut
WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic06.jpg
[Thumbnail for WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic06.jpg]
wofati plan cut
 
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Davin Hoyt wrote:This is most current.

WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic01.jpg
[Thumbnail for WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic01.jpg]
Wofati before back fill
WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic02.jpg
[Thumbnail for WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic02.jpg]
Wofati before back fill
WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic03.jpg
[Thumbnail for WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic03.jpg]
Wofati before back fill
 
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Davin Hoyt wrote:This is most current.

WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic04.jpg
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Wofati uphill facade
WOFATI_PROTO_PLAN03_pic05.jpg
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Wofati uphill facade
 
Davin Hoyt
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Davin Hoyt wrote:This is most current.



 
Jay Angler
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First off I want to say that I *really* like that people are making an effort to research this whole area of sustainable building. At some point, if the initial concept is proven useful, it would be interesting to have a model earthquake tested. There is no, single, perfect house for the entire planet! In fact, IMHO, it's been this attitude that all North American houses should look like what we see on TV, that has got us into much of the trouble we're in.

Secondly, I've only read about this stuff - I have *no* practical experience, but my understanding of the goal is to see if it will maintain a healthy temperature with only adding people and cooking heat.

So here is what I see:
A)
1. Without some sort of insulation under the "floor" that extends and connects with the foot print of the "dirt umbrella" over the house, all that heat that's been stored over the summer, will still dissipate fairly quickly until the structure is at the typical "5 ft below ground local temperature" which around here is quoted at about 55F.  That's too cold for most people to be comfortable unless they're active, and too cold to warm up easily if they've been outside and come in cold and wet.

I would love this experiment to prove me wrong!

2. What might fix that if I'm right?  Since you're using woodlot thinnings, put down a waterproof membrane that will be sealed eventually with the "umbrella" edges, lay a bunch of logs with duff filling in the gaps in two layers at right angles to each other, and then back-fill with the dirt floor?
I know Paul is trying to use all local resources, but something like an aircrete foundation with natural materials on top would insulate without having nasty off-gassing risks.
Those are just the two ideas that come to me. The trouble is that insulation requires dry trapped air, and when you're putting weight on top, compression will stop many natural insulators like down or wool from being effective. Maybe some of your shepherds could think about this. Would a home-made wool felt layer do any good under compression? Raven Ranson might know?

B)
1. I like the "wings" better than the first design. I agree they look like a lot of work, but the first designs seemed way too much like a "cave". My husband would be happy to live in it. I would not be! (Family joke - the first year we met, a mutual friend asked my husband what kind of a house I had. He replied, "I have a house, Jay has a home". Beulah replied, "No Vincent, you have a cave!") That story does apply to this. There will be people happy to live in the first design. I suspect there will be more people willing to live in the latest version. It comes down to Paul's insistence that we shouldn't feel we're giving up luxury to save the planet. Design one could be adapted to make an awesome root cellar in an area with a high water table!  

C)
The clerestory windows make no sense to me. They seem too close to the roof support to be useful enough to be worth the loss of heat that windows represent. If the goal is to get more natural light further into the structure, putting light-coloured reflective material on the ceiling might do more good.

 
Davin Hoyt
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I emailed Paul and got some more comments to work on.
Here is (my) latest.
I sloped the uphill roofs, double pillar-ed most of the walls, and incorporated a gable on the downhill side.

 
Davin Hoyt
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Jay Angler wrote:
A)
1. Without some sort of insulation under the "floor" that extends and connects with the foot print of the "dirt umbrella" over the house, all that heat that's been stored over the summer, will still dissipate fairly quickly until the structure is at the typical "5 ft below ground local temperature" which around here is quoted at about 55F.  That's too cold for most people to be comfortable unless they're active, and too cold to warm up easily if they've been outside and come in cold and wet.



Respectfully, I have chosen not to model some of the layers because of time. I will be happy to wrap all components up when/if finalizing.
 
Jay Angler
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Thanks for clarifying. It's always been unclear to me whether it is standard for there to be insulation under the floor of a Wofati. I live in a house on a un-insulated slab so instead of it acting as thermal mass, it just slowly leaks the heat. I know two people locally who actually jack-hammered their slabs inside their walls, put a thermal break against the wall, insulated under the floor level, and re-poured the floor. They both noticed a dramatic improvement in comfort level, but talk about mess and cost!
 
Davin Hoyt
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Please imagine layers covering (because modeling time).

I wanted to keep developing efficiency, and I looked to minimize the wofati.

 
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