Not Convinced that eating Animal Meat Cheese Eggs and Dairy is horribly bad for you and this planet?

Watch this lecture video and let's discuss veganism like mature adults.

http://youtu.be/es6U00LMmC4?t=1m44s

I'm an omnivore.
After watching the video I find that I am in disagreement with pretty much everything the speaker is saying. If I was sitting in the audience I would have stood up and walked out in disgust.
In my opinion, the speaker is a zealot.

We all have our own belief system. This fellow is welcome to express his reasons for his beliefs. I have no problem with the speaker doing his thing. For him to say that my beliefs are wrong is absurd. Who made him the judge of me? The fact is people are judgemental beings. I've encountered people from all over with different lifestyles and I'm OK with that. It's when others attempt to impose their beliefs upon me or compel me to change my ways to suit their beliefs that I take issue.

You want to live the vegan lifestyle, more power to you.
You want me to live the vegan lifestyle because you think it's right? I can not subscribe to that.

I agree with Ken here - no problem with vegan reasoning or lifestyle, and no tolerance for pushing a belief system on others.

This hardly deserves rebuttal, but the best counterpoint to the belief that eating meat is wrong must be "Jesus ate meat." Hmm, I think he drank wine too which I choose not to, but I'm fine if others do...

Eric Thompson wrote:but I'm fine if others do...

And there's the difference! Too many people want to force others into their own belief structure.

Why do some people make a comparison of eating meat to rape or child molestation? That is pretty extreme.

He was involved in the mink release (huge environmental impact) in 1997, He is on record saying he would "unequivocally support" the death of researchers by ALF arson. He is on record as stating he wants anyone who uses animal products of any sort to suffer the same fates (presumably factory farming and the like rather than ethical systems like permaculture) as the animals.

I went into this knowing his background, but listening all the same because I consider it important to hear every side of any situation. I know a lot of people get offended by his terms like concentration camps and the like in reference to animals. I don't. I have seen modern animal processing and it isn't all that humane. It is light-years better than it used to be, but still focused only on profit when push comes to shove. His rape/molestation comparisons on the other hand aren't really in line to my thinking.

So knowing his feelings about other human beings and the murder/torture thereof, the first few minutes of his lecture have him try to say it isn't about religion (followed by talking about how it is tied to religion) and the 'Thou shalt not kill." commandment. A more proper translation for the meaning of the original language would be "Thou shalt not murder." since it allowed for things like self-defense and matters of justice. That aside, he has admitted he would gladly kill and torture people if it meant it saved a few animals.

I think this is what immediately illustrates Ken's point about the man being a zealot. You can't really speak against murder if you are happy enough to murder as well. He presupposes animal death and human death to be equal things according to his words. So he is willing to see people dead to save animals. His view is more or less the opposite of most people.

If a cow and a human were trapped in a barn, most of us would save the human first. He would save the cow. Regardless though, I don't really think many are going to agree with him from permies. The speaker would assume all forms of animal use are equally unethical due to some presupposition on his part. Most, if not all, of us are firm believers in ethical food production. Stack systems for better production. Don't make animals suffer. Kill quickly and cleanly, especially in ways that happen without a moment of suffering.

Some here are vegan, but they may still have animals living on their land as part of the system. Paul has long ago brought up the good point that regardless of the food produced (animal or plant), modern ag is going to kill a lot of animals throughout production. More individual animals die to produce crops if measured on a plot by plot comparison. I personally see no failings in the ethics of keeping and using animals so long as those animals get to express themselves in the way that suits their natures. To quote his 'do unto others', I think I would be rather happy to live my life doing only those things which I loved to do and following my nature wherever it took me.

I don't see any judgement here in this speaker's lecture. Nor do I see him professing a belief system anywhere. Veganism is far from a belief system. It's simply not investing in the enslavement, slaughter and death of animals. What belief system? I can see with my own two eyes and feel with my heart that animals are no different than us in sentience, nor lesser in any way than the human species. Every child knows this too. It may be a lifestyle but how is eating plants a belief system?

To answer the original question: no, I'm not convinced. I'm convinced that eating factory-farmed meat is bad for the planet, since so much harm is caused by the way animal feed is raised. But I think permaculturalists, if they're serious about sustainability, can include animals on the farm in the ways that do far less harm than either factory-farming or veganism.

Craig Foulds wrote:What belief system?

This statement is belief, not fact nor data:

Craig Foulds wrote: I can see with my own two eyes and feel with my heart that animals are no different than us in sentience, nor lesser in any way than the human species.

Believe it with all your heart if you choose. Others don't and thus draw different conclusions.
I see that you haven't posted much here yet. Permies.com isn't really the place to stir up these kinds of debates where few people change their beliefs; how can we serve you?

Ann Torrence wrote:

Craig Foulds wrote:What belief system?

This statement is belief, not fact nor data:

Craig Foulds wrote: I can see with my own two eyes and feel with my heart that animals are no different than us in sentience, nor lesser in any way than the human species.

Believe it with all your heart if you choose. Others don't and thus draw different conclusions.
I see that you haven't posted much here yet. Permies.com isn't really the place to stir up these kinds of debates where few people change their beliefs; how can we serve you?

That's like me saying "I can taste this apple and it tastes like an apple", both of us can see the apple, and you watched me pick it from an apple tree, and then you tell me that's just a belief and not to force my belief system on you.

Craig Foulds wrote:
That's like me saying "I can taste this apple and it tastes like an apple", both of us can see the apple, and you watched me pick it from an apple tree, and then you tell me that's just a belief and not to force my belief system on you.

LOL, you picked the wrong person to discuss apples and their taste. Like a hobbit on the edge of doom discussing a meal I am when it comes to apples. Did you know there are about 7,500 varieties of apples, some of which taste astoundingly not like apples? Most novice tasters we offer a good English bittersharp to try might not even agree they taste like an apple. Some, like the Sweet Coppin don't even look like apples. All apple trees don't even look the same. I have one variety in my orchard that looks more like a plum tree than an apple. It's a rabbit hole, it's dark down there, let's not go, shall we? There are many ways we can help each other on this forum.

I ask again, how may we serve you?

It is funny to see flesh eaters dismiss veganism as a belief system. So then carnivorism is a belief system too?

Is it possible that a majority belief system could be wrong?

No need to answer that one

I'd like to remind members that permies.com is not for debating, it is for discussing.

Also, we want all discussions to state opinions, not 'the truth' and to allow for other members' viewpoints.

Vegans and non-vegans are both welcome here.

The whole tone of this thread has been somewhat 'in your face' and 'this is the truth' and is in danger of being locked unless this improves.

leaving room for other people's ideas

how permies.com works - links to useful threads

-ism, suffix
Used to form the name of a system, school of thought or theory based on the name of its subject. Can describe a tendency of behaviour, action or opinion. Refers to a body of principles and philosophies.

Jason Den Uyl wrote:So then carnivorism is a belief system too?
Is it possible that a majority belief system could be wrong?

We used to KNOW the world was flat. We used to KNOW the Earth was the center of the universe. Majority beliefs can be wrong.

Humans can eat meat, plants, fungi, algae and bacteria. This does not mean we MUST eat these things. My sister chooses not to drink orange juice because it makes her break out in hives. I choose not to eat peanuts because I have no teeth. These are reasons based on cause and effect. I've talked with vegetarians who choose not to eat meat because they do not believe in harming animals. I can support that, you'd have to be some sort of monster to believe in harming animals.

The industrialization of the food system has developed methods which are efficient from the point of view of economics. Shoving several hens in a battery cage minimizes resources and maximizes production. CAFOs do the same with pigs and cattle. Calling it enslavement is a too much of a leap for me. I see it as anthropomorphization and speciesism. Extending the reasoning to plants, a combine in operation is a holocaust to a wheat field. If it is wrong to kill an animal, it must also be wrong to kill a plant: We should all be fruitarians.

Plenty of people give their food no thought and are oblivious to the nature of it's production. Those battery hens and CAFO cows endure an awful existence. If more people knew what goes on at these sites, perhaps action would be taken to improve conditions. It would not bother me one bit to see the end of these operations. I am of the opinion that an egg from a pastured chicken is substantially more delightful to eat. All of us are free to decide for ourselves what is acceptable. There are choices out there: battery eggs, free range eggs, pasture eggs, and no eggs. I can support someone's choice not to eat eggs and meat for whatever reason they choose or believe. At the same time, I will make different choices for whatever reason I choose or believe.

The speaker in the video has his own set of ideas. He can share them at his pleasure. I don't have to buy what he's selling.

Burra Maluca wrote:The whole tone of this thread has been somewhat 'in your face' and 'this is the truth' and is in danger of being locked unless this improves.

leaving room for other people's ideas

how permies.com works - links to useful threads

Hear, hear!

I'm going to lock this thread now.

If anyone with the requisite number of apples wants to continue exploring this subject, they can start a thread in the cider press.

Hopefully the vegan forum can now settle down and become a little less heated and more conducive to discussion of permaculture by gentle souls who choose to live a gentle life.