Healthy Communication

How can we get around our programming of always being "PC," and start talking to each other with trust, patience, and an objective spirit?

I wanted to start a topic about Social Permaculture, and how we can learn to communicate in a healthy, practical way.

I am currently a part of a nomadic community that travels the United States. We work and live together on a daily basis, which allows me to study and actively participate in intentional living, whether I like it or not.

The most difficult part of living together that I have observed, in any scenario, is improper communication. in the United States especially, through a mixture of rapidly advancing social technology, and social norms causing fear of rejection, insecurities, and general social anxiety, I notice a difficulty in humans being able to express their emotions without fearing they will make a fool of themselves. I also notice people tend to immediately respond defensively when facing criticism.

I believe this has to do with personal insecurities brought on by unhealthy social environments, and, primarily, the struggle many Westerners have with listening properly.

I heard someone put it like this, once. Most people are either talking, or waiting for someone else to finish talking, so they can return to talking themselves.

I've spent much of my adult life living in intentional community settings of various sorts. Two of these blew up in my face with high drama!
My takeaway lesson was this.....with enough information and enough energy and enough startup money, it's relatively easy to start a settlement, a commune, an ecovillage, or a homestead. It's easy to grow your own food, provide your own power, build your own house....all of it. It only takes a bit more savvy and some connections to contrive ways to make money while doing these things, too. But getting along with other people is the one thing that will bring it all crashing down every time! People will talk about what brings marriages and families down, and communities too.....things like money, children, diet, pets, religion, and sex all come up, and those are all important sources of conflict, but beyond and beneath all of these is a certain set of people skills, a certain give-and-take, a tolerance, a perseverance that is quite lacking in modern Western culture.
As I've commented before and elsewhere, I think that to some extent this process of fragmentation and de-skilling has been engineered in the interests of profit. Before the world wars, the normal social unit in America was the extended family. Several relatives and multiple generations living together, sharing money and chores. Then the idea of the nuclear family, living distantly from relatives, arose. And now we have single-parent families, and large numbers of single people living alone. Think of all the services performed on those old farms and large households that are now outsourced into the money economy. Beginning with childcare and eldercare, and on through the whole array of activities around food production, preservation, and preparation.....how many modern young people don't even cook?
I've also spent time in village-based cultures (such as India, Bangladesh, and Nepal). I have no romantic delusion about it....life in such situations can be very repressive of individuality and freedom, and there can be long, simmering family and religious feuds that can propagate for generations.....both issues which are handily resolved in the West by simple relocation. But basic skills of how to get along with people are scarce....

Yes, communication and community skills are scarce, but we have identified the problem. Now, we need solutions. People must be willing to change and grow, to admit their shortcomings and push through insecurities.

In my opinion, 2 important things to consider with any sort of relationship,
1) TALK IT OUT, do not hold onto bitter feelings... feel them, process them, ask yourself why you are feeling these things and if it is rational or driven by fear and insecurity or worse EGO
and 2) DON'T BE OFFENDED, when we take every little thing personally and than add that to bottled up feelings and resentments, we're casting a spell for disaster!!

Talk it out.. work things through, be honest with yourself most importantly and trust who you are dealing with. I believe Trust is one of the most important aspects to any healthy relationship.

Chris Lynn wrote:How can we get around our programming of always being "PC," and start talking to each other with trust, patience, and an objective spirit?

I wanted to start a topic about Social Permaculture, and how we can learn to communicate in a healthy, practical way.

It's wonderful to (and I often do) idealize a utopia where humans finally figure this communication thing out. I doubt that we ever will, mostly because of the variations in human personality and personal backgrounds. But I wanted to weigh in on this idea in spite of that! And I do believe that people can learn and get better at "communication", if they work at it right.

Chris Lynn wrote:The most difficult part of living together that I have observed, in  any scenario, is improper communication. in the United States especially, through a mixture of rapidly advancing social technology, and social norms causing fear of rejection, insecurities, and general social anxiety, I notice a difficulty in humans being able to express their emotions without fearing they will make a fool of themselves. I also notice people tend to immediately respond defensively when facing criticism.

Because communication is a two-way street, 1) sometimes there are problems with the way people express themselves, and 2) sometimes people have problems with the way they interpret what other people communicate. Both of these dynamics are constantly going on in my relationships. When I get  "negative feedback", shall we say, I always first have to be sure and take a step back and examine honestly if the problem really was because of me and what I said and how I said it, or if what I said was reasonable, yet the other person just didn't (or couldn't) perceive it in a normal way, for whatever reason. Then I take action accordingly.

Chris Lynn wrote:I believe this has to do with personal insecurities brought on by unhealthy social environments, and, primarily, the struggle many Westerners have with listening properly.

 In my society, we don't need to depend on personal relationships anymore for obtaining food, living necessities, entertainment, or, really, anything. You can get a lot (maybe most) of what you need and want without having any friends/family, merely by pushing the right buttons and being a cog in the workforce machine.

And so--if you don't need to partner with other people to get things or do things, you won't get much practice forming and maintaining close relationships, and so you likely won't figure interpersonal things out very well and get good at communication. I have several siblings. Growing up with them was the BEST school of learning how to share responsibilities, opportunities, goods, and time, as well as communicate about them. It's so good to start learning this stuff young, if you can, and I'm so grateful I have them.

Chris Lynn wrote:I heard someone put it like this, once. Most people are either talking, or waiting for someone else to finish talking, so they can return to talking themselves.

People aren't used to being heard in this culture, I think, because they don't even listen to themselves. It's noisy these days, 24/7. We need more silence in our lives to each listen to our own inner voice and converse with it, and we will be better able to both talk well and listen well to others.

This is great post and I’m glad it was revived.

It does seem from my observations that many attempts to start an intentional community, Transition Town etc start strong then fall apart from some internal conflict.

Figuring this out is paramount to moving forward in any way. I certainly have not been able to personally but if any group can do it, it would be permies.

Thank you

Thank you for this topic!

I look at intentional communities with an equal mix of admiration and caution.  I yearn for living with others in a way that is mutually life-affirming.  And, I live alone with my husband and animals.  Why don't I "have" that community (yet)?

Between the past two US elections and the pandemic, I started to get a perspective on how we can have a disconnect between our values and our actions.  We like to think of humans as rational beings who sometimes have emotional experiences.  But what if that's backwards?   We are emotional beings who sometimes have rational experiences.

Emotion and reason don't have to be in conflict.  However,  we are living in the aftermath of centuries when emotions were devalued and repressed.  We kind of still think of feelings as inconvenient, secondary, or icing on the cake.

Add to this view the ubiquity of traumatic experiences, with neglect topping the list, and it gets complex fast.

"People aren't used to being heard in this culture, I think, because they don't even listen to themselves. It's noisy these days, 24/7. We need more silence in our lives to each listen to our own inner voice and converse with it, and we will be better able to both talk well and listen well to others."

Listening is a great place to start.   Sometimes, especially with Complex trauma (C-PTSD is quite different from PTSD), listening is not available due to being checked out from or running from connecting with self and others.  We don't know we're doing this when we're doing this. From the outside, it just looks like someone is dreamy, spacey, not listening, disengaged,  workaholic,  or addicted to something.

"And so--if you don't need to partner with other people to get things or do things, you won't get much practice forming and maintaining close relationships, and so you likely won't figure interpersonal things out very well and get good at communication."

Yes and no.   Complex trauma wounds were made in relationships and can be healed in relationships.  The pandemic helped many people to get alone enough and quiet enough to wonder why they were doing what they didn't want to be doing, especially in relationships.  It's like having a limp and trying to cross a busy street.   You're paying attention to the traffic patterns and for the opening to get across.  In the busy moments, you're not focused on understanding why you have a limp and if it can be repaired.  You're just trying to get around without getting run over.  

Another comment brought up the word trust.   Trust requires calculus-level relationship safety for people dealing with trauma.   By definition,  the trauma was some sort of life-threatening betrayal of trust.

Where do we go with this trauma-informed perspective?

- assume that everyone is seeking to be drawn closer with love (but don't just reach out to pull them in!)  Operate under the assumption that off-putting actions are still a bid for love.  Respond with love.

- examine and perhaps deep dive the recent insights and emerging discoveries about complex trauma

- model listening to yourself, healthy self talk,  growth mindset,  skillfully protecting yourself,
boundaries, enjoyment of life, and mutually beneficial relating

- people hurt when they are hurting.   Think of a wild animal caught in a fence.   If you want to help,  protect yourself, and call in professionals as needed.  Realize that for the wounded, taming and trusting will take huge swaths of time.  Don't feed what you don't want hanging around, but don't poison it either.  Toxic stuff will move away or be released if not engaged.

Someone's mention of our fast pace bears repeating.  Even us outliers are moving quickly.   Blame it on internal combustion or microchips, whatever.   We are all going faster than our biological animal bodies.  How can we slow down and connect, knowing that many of us are bleeding internally?

Chris Lynn wrote:How can we get around our programming of always being "PC," and start talking to each other with trust, patience, and an objective spirit?

I wanted to start a topic about Social Permaculture, and how we can learn to communicate in a healthy, practical way. ...

I heard someone put it like this, once. Most people are either talking, or waiting for someone else to finish talking, so they can return to talking themselves.

I will have to say that I agree with what Chris said. This! Most people are waiting for someone else to finish talking, so they can return to talking themselves.

I look back at some of the conversations that I had that I can remember.  I remember feeling frustrated that the person would not stop talking so I could give my point of view.

Rachel said," where humans finally figure this communication thing out. I doubt that we ever will, mostly because of the variations in human personality and personal backgrounds.

And this!  Everyone comes from different backgrounds and we each have different personalities.

Yet there are people in this world that have figured out about healthy communication.  Do you know any?


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My personal saying, and it should be in reverse tattoo on my forehead, so I don't forget, " It takes about a year to learn to talk, it takes the rest of our life to learn to shut up and listen."

Great topic. Lack of communication tends to break down into types of control and violence.  
I get to engage in expedited team driving with strangers 24 hours a day for week trips of planned chaos. Like to start discussing foundational directives that sets the course of what we believe. Doing so in a none religious fashion takes some logic and philosophy background.
And I like to present the ideal of the goal of a nurturing community. What I have seen of such, and how to get there by personal peaceful giving efforts.

Tim Lutz wrote: I get to engage in expedited team driving with strangers 24 hours a day for week trips of planned chaos.

This reminds me of when I used to ride the bus to downtown Dallas to work a 9 to 5 job way back in the day.

At one point, there was a bus driver who was a very friendly and talkative guy.  He made all the passengers feel like he was a friend.

I first heard about Mississippi Mud Cake from him when he talked about his wife making one.

My mouth is watering because to this day I still have not had an opportunity to taste that cake!


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Thanks for the memories!

In general I find it to be useful to really build up health communication skills little by little. Too often people jump into relationships (like intentional communities) that require deeply shared values and very close ties. It's not a surprise that many intentional communities fail and many that succeed can often have hierarchical social order that determines who gets to decide what.

An alternative is just to loosely associate with people: neighbors, friends, colleagues. I try to work together with others and sort of see how it all goes. If they are nice to work with, I come back again for more, maybe work with them on something that requires more complex buy in. In general I think lots of us try to reinvent too much of the wheel too quickly. Slow and steady is the way!

After over 40 years of living with the same partner, I can say that a commitment to get along and stay together gets you through many differences of opinion.  When you are committed to getting along, you will find a way to work out your differences.  I have also learned that when people are in pain or have other struggles, they will say things they don't mean.  It is best not to take such comments personally.

And from mindfulness classes, don't tell yourself stories.  When you make up stories about yourself or the people in your social sphere, you can start to believe them even though they are not based on reality.  

Communication in a community ... that's an interesting topic!
What exactly is a 'community'? I think it is a group of people who communicate (on a certain level).

People can live close together, f.e. in the same house, but if they never listen to each other, or they always have fights ... I would not call them a 'community'.

People who do not live at the same place, but have activities together, share interests, have talks together (on their projects, their lives, etc.) ... in other words who 'communicate'... i.m.o they can be called a 'community'.

Ashley Colby wrote:It's not a surprise that many intentional communities fail and many that succeed can often have hierarchical social order that determines who gets to decide what.

This is interesting! I wonder if you have any anecdotes you can share about this?

I used to be involved with a collective that tried to be non-hierarchical, but we kept having problems. I always said it was because people were so used to hierarchy that they would create it where there was none, and push against it, creating conflict. In the end, it became clear to me that nothing would get done unless somebody took charge. That was hard for me, because I believed so strongly in the lack of hierarchy, and it seemed the responsibility to take charge was pushed to me.

What was hardest was how personal it got. I feel I went in to the role with a sense of justice, and a lot of patience and empathy. I left with little empathy, no patience, and eroded values. I felt my words were consistently taken out of context, or ill intent was assumed where it didn't exist. People seemed to believe I was seeking to exert power over them, when all I felt I was doing was trying to empower them to make their voices and feelings heard. Even in cases where I would state my opinion, I would try to uplift the voices of those who disagreed with me, and discuss their points in detail. It was never received well, at least not by the most vocal.

And it all fell apart! As you suggest. I felt I did everything I could to make everyone feel welcome and heard, and like they could express their opinions regardless of politics etc, but in the end I personally felt none of those things, and it appeared few others did either. Frustrating! And yet I still hold on to these ideas that non-hierarchical organising is the way to go... Perhaps I've cursed myself to repeating this same situation again and again.

Thanks for all these replies, lots to think about.

Charlie Tioli wrote:Thank you for this topic!

Listening is a great place to start.   Sometimes, especially with Complex trauma (C-PTSD is quite different from PTSD), listening is not available due to being checked out from or running from connecting with self and others.  We don't know we're doing this when we're doing this. From the outside, it just looks like someone is dreamy, spacey, not listening, disengaged,  workaholic,  or addicted to something.

there are some very interesting videos on C-PTSD available thru you tube I especially liked the one that had a check list of signs that you have C-PTSD and childhood situations that tend to form C-PTSD.
I watch them and have 2 check lists -1 me single parent raised-my dad was away working most of my childhood so my mom was effectively a single parent except for rare Wohlwend visits where we'd drop what we were doing to do what he wanted to do. 2 my husband neglect- my husband was the youngest of 5 and his mom ran a in-home daycare so her attention was pulled a lot of other directions.

Margaux Knox wrote:

Ashley Colby wrote:It's not a surprise that many intentional communities fail and many that succeed can often have hierarchical social order that determines who gets to decide what.

This is interesting! I wonder if you have any anecdotes you can share about this?

I used to be involved with a collective that tried to be non-hierarchical, but we kept having problems. I always said it was because people were so used to hierarchy that they would create it where there was none, and push against it, creating conflict. In the end, it became clear to me that nothing would get done unless somebody took charge. That was hard for me, because I believed so strongly in the lack of hierarchy, and it seemed the responsibility to take charge was pushed to me.

...

Hi Margaux. Very interesting! This is what I experience too.

Someone wanted to start up a project here for a tiny-houses-community. This was a project I wanted to join.
I found out he only told people he met about his plan (that was how I heard about it).  He did not organise meetings for all those different people to get in touch with each other so a 'community' could come into existence. I suggested him I would take the task on me to organise a meeting. He liked that idea and gave me the e-mails of all interested persons. The first meeting went very well.

But then the 'starter up' decided to leave the group. What now? If I want this project to go on do I need to organise everything? That is not what I want!
I did organise a few more meetings. But I started feeling like all others began to see me as 'the organiser'...
If they just want to 'follow' and I have to 'push and pull' them ... Then this project is not what I want it to be. In this way it will never become the 'tiny house community' I want to live in (where different people take on different tasks without 'one leader').

This is the point where we are now. (will be continued?)