persimmon jam came out chalky and astringent -- why?

I made a test batch of persimmmon jam. It  drys out my mouth  like chalk. Any hints ? suggestions?

Charles, the persimmon astringency is due to tannin. Before making any jam with them, you need to make sure that they are fully ripe, squishy soft. The tannin is significantly reduced when they are extremely soft and then not astringent. I have made persimmon jam from persimmons in Texas and was coached by the neighbor who gave them to us. She grew up with them and had been making jam for years.

i check them all .. very soft

you picked the fruit too early. it has to feel soft, squishy and what some would call "rotten" feeling. when its ready persimmons are a jelly all by themselves. and super sweet. we dont harvest our persimmons for jelly or baking until the first hard frost. or if you harvest them early you can make japanese hoshigaki.

trust me all of them were ripe i picked them off the ground then i let them cure for a week in a paper bag .
I'm sure they were ready on account that i ate several .

im just saying, if it made your mouth dry like chalk, they weren't ready. thats the only way i know them to do that. they should be sweet as sugar. we dont harvest our persimmons until late november early december here. right now there on the tree changing color to orange which most would think is "ripe" but its far from it.

  seems to me that when persimmon pulp is cooked it undergoes a chemical change which causes the tannins to

be more evident. i was working on making persimmon fruit leather in my oven and the result was dry tasting

  fruit leather, even though i started with very ripe persimmons. with my next batch i plan on simply dehydrating

the puree in a clean, cool spot, since i believe the cooking process does change the flavour of the

  fruit.  i am interested in hearing of others' cooking experiences with one of my favorite fruits. deliciousness!!!

charles johnson "carbonout" wrote:
i check them all .. very soft

Not soft enough. Honestly, you are looking for a water balloon consistency with the astringent ones.

I made wild persimmon jam this year and tried to be very careful as well, using only the softest, mushiest fruit. One batch turned out fine, but a think there was a less than ideal fruit in the second batch. It had that chalky quality. I am convinced now, that to make good persimmon jam, I will need to taste a micro piece of each fruit before using it. One less than fully ripe fruit can mess up the whole batch. And sometimes, even what seems like a fully ripe and softened fruit can still have that chalky quality. I did notice that with the fruit I picked.

What recipe are you guys using?  Do you remove the skin and seeds before heating?  When I make persimmon wine I squeeze the fruit through a paint strainer, leaving the skin and seeds behind.  What a mess! 

I used a persimmon and orange recipe (includes orange juice and finely grated orange peel). The basic flavor, particularly in the good batch, was very good. I cut out the seeds by hand, then used a "Roma" food mill to separate the skins from the flesh.

http://www.lehmans.com/store/Kitchen___Canning_and_Preserving___Food_Mills___Roma__Food_Mill___070801?Args=

Goodness, that will be much faster!  Thank you for the pointer.

Kelson Water wrote:  seems to me that when persimmon pulp is cooked it undergoes a chemical change which causes the tannins to be more evident.

This matches my experience.  In many cases, a cooking process that applies heat to your persimmons seems to reverse the chemical change that happens when the persimmon ripens.  Whatever chemistry binds up the astringency gets reversed when the ripe persimmon flesh is cooked; they lose sweetness and become more astringent again.

However, this is not universal; the chemistry is more complex than I understand.  For example, when you make persimmon bread (basically, use any banana bread recipe and substitute persimmon pulp for the bananas, yum) the baking does not mess with the persimmon flavor or sweetness.  

Jordan Lowery wrote:im just saying, if it made your mouth dry like chalk, they weren't ready. thats the only way i know them to do that.

I want to point out that with wild American persimmons, every tree (or, perhaps, every little grove) is genetically unique.  Flavor varies wildly from tree to tree.  There do exist a small minority of persimmon trees that make fruit that never loses its astringency even when fully ripe and fallen from the tree.

if cooking can change the astigency of persimmon. it may be more suitable to use non astrigent persimmon. they will be non astigent nonmatter what. here in PNW a light frost removed astrigency from persimmons. a quick freeze in freezer before cooking with astrigent perismmon may help. im not  a baker but i would love to see others experiment.

In my experience freezing persimmon pulp or fruit does not affect their astringency, it just makes them softer like any other fruit that gets frozen, by breaking down cell walls.  Despite common belief to the contrary, frost doesn't help with fruit ripening; it's a coincidence of timing in some places.  In fact, the USDA 1915 bulletin on persimmons says:

There are several factors which are responsible for the slow progress of persimmon development in this country. One reason for the neglect of this fruit seems to be the erroneous yet oft-repeated statement that persimmons are unfit to eat until they have either been touched by frost or frozen. Although this statement has been corrected by nearly every one who has studied the subject, nevertheless throughout the regions where persimmons are grown many of the best fruits are lost each year because they ripen and fall before frost or before they are supposed to be edible. The truth of the matter is that freezing is as detrimental to the quality of persimmons as to the quality of any other fruit. If persimmons are not edible and free from astringency before frost, it is because the variety is a late one and the fruit has not yet matured.

Dan Boone thank you for clarifying. This is the first year my persimmons experience frost. They are usually ripe and ready to be picked before the frost here in PNW. And right after frost they ripen soften there is no astigency left, but they also had frost damage. I would pick before frost if possible to keep qaulity good.

Hachiya persimmons tend to be astringent and chalky, even (in my experience) when they are ripe. Fuyu persimmons, which are more squat in shape and a deeper orange, are the ones you want if you want to avoid the astringency.

Hello from France.
I've just made my first batch of jam... the fruit were very ripe but the whole lot seperated in a sort of curdled mess as it heated up and I got a terrible fuzzy effect. I've thrown out the whole batch. Is it coming from the skins or the fruit? if I try again without any skins should it work?

I'm so disappointed as for 8 years my fruit have been pinched by passers-by before I've had a chance to harvest them, but it's a bumper crop so I can try again.

thanks

Lulu

Okay. First of all, there are two varieties of big Asian persimmons, and usually when I search for persimmon recipes, even from US sites, that's what they're talking about. But I'm using the small native American persimmons--the wild D virginiana, and some grafted ones which are somewhat bigger and mostly seedless. perhaps because they're crossed with a variety from Texas that supposedly has a different number of chromosomes. My point is, these are related but different fruit so a factual statement about one may not be accurate with another. The wild ones ripen at different times, so saying it wasn't late enough isn't accurate--I've has some fall quite ripe in August while another tree drops ripe ones into November. They're ripe when they're very soft, orange, sometimes almost translucent--and when a taste confirms the astringency is gone.
On cooking with them: I once--when I lived in the holler,where persimmons are rare here but pawpaws plentiful--had too many pawpaws so I tried making jam. The result was nasty brown, inedible--and persimmons have a similar texture, so I've never even tried making jam with them. I have three recipes that involve baking--a bar cookie with lemon icing, muffins, and a cake. They come out excellent pretty much every time. I'll share them if anyone asks. I found all three on the internet.

In my experience the skin is astringent even when the fruit is ripe enough to eat with a straw, even the non-astringent varieties. For the persimmons I've worked with, it is important to separate the skin and seeds from the pulp before using.

Well, I certainly prefer to remove the seeds and the cap and ideally the skin, at least any tough parts. But the seeds of the wild ones are too big and plentiful to go through my tomato strainer. If I use a borrowed straner part with bigger holes, and ideally a shorter spiral, I can get nice smooth seedless pulp...IF I first tediously separate he seeds from the pulp with my hands, with two bowls in front of me. In one go the seeds, caps, sometimes the whitish core--in the other goes the pulp, then I attempt to open the door without getting orange goo all over the knob, to go fling the seeds into a patch of woods with a somewhat empty spot where persimmon trees could go if they germinate. And THEN run this imperfectly separated stuff through the squeezo, There is some waste, as the last of what goes in doesn't come out filtered...but you can still use it.

Late to the party here, but I don't see how the cooking/heating process coupd be the issue. The main thing I know people to use persimmons for is a baked "pudding". It is sweet and doesn't have the tannin quality to it. 🤷‍♀️

I hear of different ways to determine if persimmons are ready to be used or not (I'm not going to say ripe). Wait until after the first frost is one. If I did that here. there wouldn't be any left. Make sure they are mushy. Well, ready ones are USUALLY mushy, but mushy ones aren't necessarily ready. I found (by accident, and the hard way, so to speak, that you can easily flick the cap off a ready persimmon with the tip of a finger (which I couldn't). If you have to apply an amount of pressure to the cap, I advise you don't eat it, unless you want to be puckered up for the next half your, ready to kiss your mate.

I LOVE persimmon pudding, and persimmons. I have a book that is dedicated to persimmon recipes. Not all puddings, but I think there are 4-6 pudding recipes in it.