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Most cold hardy nuts, paw paws and mulberries, where are they?

 
Janne Lassila
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Hi everyone, I'm brand new permaculture enthusiast, and just arrived at this wondeful site.

I live on southwestern Finland, up in the northern Europe. Thanks to the Gulf stream, we can grow many things here, european hazels are natural species here and of course apples and pears. But I am more interested in more excotic species now, especially nuts!
Now I have already planted two shagbark hickories and one butternut. I have seen full grown, producing, japanese walnuts and butternuts in the local Botanic gardens, though I have yet tasted them (mayhaps during one dark fal evening I shall go and pick up..specimens..).
I've got the craze to plant as much nuts as possible in my dad's small farm, which maybe mine some day. So on account of these nuts, I intend to collect also some nuts for planting in pots, and let them be outside during the winter, and see if anything pops up. Any comments on this?

But there are of course some nuts I can't get/steal/borror from nearby. For example shellbark hickory/kingnut, I was wondering if that is edible at all? And maybe I could try some pecans also. I know they are testing them in some nurseries here, and I'd too want to test them. So if anyone knows a pecan tree that lives north, please get in touch .

There is provenly also one or two paw paws living in Finland, even northern than my home, so they CAN survive...but getting a seed or sapling here is almost impossible. And I presume the seed needs to be in moist all the time after harvest, so shipping few dry nuts during the winter isn't an option, is it?

All this goes also to mulberry. White mulberry lives and thrives here well, that I know, but I'd try also red and maybe black. I'm more interested in getting some wild red that produces nice fruits, but lives north, than a cultivar that is awesome in taste, but will die the next winter.

So all in all, I'd like to get in touch to people that know of a wild nuttree/paw paw/mulberry that produces edible fruit, and/or some nurseries that  producw winter hardy products. It's easy to get stuff from Russia in Finland, but a wee bit more difficult to get trees/seeds over the ocean from the Americas

I hope I didn't ask too many questions

Regards,
Janne
 
dirk maes
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Hello Janne
Are walnuts native in your region? If so i would plant them also.
Myself I have walnuts, chestnuts,  hazels, pecans, Staphylea pinnata and almonds.Not all plants grow as hoped.
My location is 51° N and  04° E.
I have 2 pawpaws and 2 persimmons witch grow fine.
I have tried Holvenia dulcis, Japanese raisin tree, but it  did not survive our mostly mild (-8°C) winters. We often have freezing winters with no snow cover.
Most plants were bought in Belgium, Holland, France and Germany. Post delivery. Has a cost!
Do not forget oak, it has nuts that are edible after lengthy preparations. And there is Beech. A good oil source.
You can PM me if you have further questions.
 
Dave Dahlsrud
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Some of the stone pines would probably be an easy addition for pine nuts...
 
Jay Grace
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Hickory nuts are better tasting than pecans, IMO.  They are actually in the same family and can cross.
There is a nut called a hican that is a pecan hickory cross.

That might give a pecan enough hardiness to survive in your climate.
 
Janne Lassila
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Hi everybody!

Walnuts are not native to my region, no . Althoug in Helsinki, where I mainly live, (but where I don't plan my permaculture thingamajimmies) there are many many juglans-trees, and producing even now. Most of them are japanese walnuts, and manchurian walnuts, but I have found several VERY large butternuts. So even if the european/english walnut may not survive, it seems that many others do. And I've also seen one white hickory, about 3 meters high, living and thriving. Though no nuts this year...
Hicans would be awesome! I wonder how could I get some seeds or small plants alive all the way here in the north....
Beech and oak we do have, though oak not in quantities, but it seems that the decidious trees are slowly crawling north. Climate change, huh?

We usually have in winters frosts that may go as down as -30C , though maybe one in a 10 years, mostly it bounces in 0 C - -20 C, snow cover varies nowdays (again climate change). One small plum from france made it throug last winter. It's a Mirabelle plum, so it's a wonder that It continues to grow, hopefully someday makes plums also!

On the paw paw problem....I visited yesterday a famous arboretum in southeastern finland, and what do ya know, they were selling paw paw seedlings! From three different seeds I bought two, which were PA Golden and Allegheny. Now these were from the SEEDS from those orginal plants, so not actually those. It seems that we are trying to cultivate something that grows in finland .
They are now in the pots, and have to be for at leas a week still, until I can go and move them to their final destination...should I buy big big pots for them and keep them inside for this winter, or just find a nice half-shaded place next to a big rock, and see if they manage through the winter? Apparently small paw paws don't like blasting sun, and wind coverage might be a good thing.
Here is the coordinates to where I live, in google maps terms: 60°48'56.9"N 21°15'48.5"E

So you see, it is a maritime climate, though not nearly as rough as pacific or atlantic might be. We have the warmest summers in Finland.

Pines would be interesting addition, I haven't even started to seach those. The pines we have go to the squirrels

-Janne
 
David Livingston
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Many parts of the UK you can grow walnut trees but it's never warm enough to actually get nuts mature . Many trees are grown for the wood and some of the immature nuts used for pickles or van noire
 
David Livingston
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How about cloud berries
I would love to grow those

David
 
David Livingston
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I have mirrabelle both yellow and red and am making plum jam today from them . They are the first to flower in the spring and the first to fruit too so maybe a good bet for you .
I don't know but you might be able to graft them on sloe/black thorn / bullus that might be native to you

David
 
dirk maes
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Janne
Do not forget that a city environment has a higher average temperature than the rural land. This may explain why some trees survive in Helsinki!
I planted my pawpaw's in spring. They where mulched before the frosts in November. Be aware that the roots are brittle so handle with care.
Mulberries survived our harshest winters ( -20°C).
There is a Dutch nursery that sells winter hardy Carya.
No chestnuts?
 
Crt Jakhel
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Janne, the winter temperatures that you mentioned do not seem  extreme for nuts.

In NE Slovenia, at the western edge of the Pannonian basin, we normally have a range of 0 / -20 C in the winter as well, with episodes of -25 up to -30 for a couple of days or a week sometimes and we've got all kinds of regular continental climate fruit growing here. I consider this to be climate zone 6.

Walnuts are, I would say, all about the last freeze date... I suggest you look for some especially late cultivars. For example the modern French cultivars Fernor and Fernette are said to be very late to flower and leaf out. (As well as bearing great quality nuts.)

I've planted a young Fernor walnut tree in the fall of 2015. In the spring of 2016 (this year) we had a late hard frost of such degree that all the locals said there's only been an event like that 25 to 30 years ago.

On all of the more sensitive trees new growth looked like cooked spinach and there will definitely be no walnuts in the village this year. However, our young Fernor had not yet woken up for the new season when the frost struck. It is now growing quite well (but is too young to bring fruit). So I guess its reputation is correct.

As to other fruit, based on our experience, I would expect plums, quinces, apples, sour cherries and even peaches (may depend on the cultivar) to do quite well in the winter temperature range such as you have described. We also have a black mulberry that grows and fruits just fine.

However, all the flowers on the fruit trees that I mentioned above got fried in the late frost. So... It's not that much about the winter extremes, it's about how the coming of spring develops. If you tend to have a warm start and then a hard freeze, that will be a problem.

 
Janne Lassila
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Haha, David, cloudberry resides in swamps and northern finland..and they are, as are all berries and 'shrooms, available in our forests and swamps to anyone who want's to go and pick them! But since my prospected gardens in archipelago of Finland usually don't have and swamps... . Then again, it's all about testing in permaculture, right? Even though all info says that growing cloudberry in a large scale has proven very difficult, and that all our cloudberry crops are harvested from natural habitats, that doesn't mean that I should not try !

Same goes for chestnuts, as Dirk suggested. We have tried to grow chestnuts in Finland about two hundred years without significant success..but climate change, microclimates and so on, I guess I should try! But rather than buy several small chestnuttrees, and see them destroyed in first winter, I'd rather just plant millions and millions of nuts, and see which one survives. Now where to get such amounts of valid seeds, I do not know

Plums are usually quite well adapted here, so I might just craft some of that mirabelle to any of our "wild" damson plums that grow like weeds around our garden.

I will see if I'm able to find that Fernor-walnut somewhere in europe to sell. Also I will continue to observe all these different other walnut trees, maybe they do actually make full nuts after all! And to say that city climate is warmer than countryside...true, but these trees that I observe are not surrounded by any buildings by a longshot, they are away from urban centers. And really, Finland does not HAVE a really big city anywhere . Also while I'm talking about climate, the sea equalises spring weather somewhat, so even if days would be suprisingly warm the cold wind from sea would balance that.  Average temp.in march-may was 2013 3.5C , and 2016 6,5C. That's entire average from three months, in may we had over 20C. I guess there are potential for late freezes, but I don't remember any big ones.

I have already planted few quinces, and have seeds for many more, going to sow them this fall. I expect them to fully reach their potential here, so it's marmelade ahoy!

So any hints where to order black mulberries? And to Dirk I would ask: in what type of soil does your paw paws live? They are by far my number once concern now, and after I plant them to the ground, I'm gonna shade them a bit, and build a mighty fortress around them, and wage war on rabbits during the winter.

I appreciate all answers already, this was my first post to these boards, nice to see that there are people that actually answer! I wish that I could help someone somewhere and send some seeds or plants or whatever...but it seems that here in the north it is WE who want all kinds of things from the south, hehe.

-Janne


 
Crt Jakhel
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Fernor is a French cultivar. Slovenia is in the EU as well and new varieties usually arrive to Slovenian nurseries with a noticeable delay. So I would not expect you to have any trouble with it in Finland.

As to mulberries, there are at least two very good European sources for all kinds of "special" fruit trees and their cultivars: agroforestry.co.uk and hortensis.de.

See also: http://www.fruitiers-rares.info/articles-A123a128/article126-non-French-nurseries-for-rare-fruits.html

About (sweet) chestnuts - I would say that it's likely not as much a cold climate problem as it is maybe the soil and disease - bacterial blight of chestnut is widespread in Europe (and the US).

There are Chinese chestnuts (castanea mollisima) and their hybrids which are supposedly resistant to the disease.

You write:  We have tried to grow chestnuts in Finland about two hundred years without significant success.

Let me tell you a story... Slovenia is a small country but there are intense rivalries between people from different little patches of this small country. One region has always been known for growing hops (humulus lupulus) for beer production. After WW2, there was a political idea that hops should be grown countrywide to increase output. However, the original hops growers were not happy with the suggestion since they would lose their special status. So  when they were forced to send plant material to other parts of the country, they dipped the roots briefly in boiling water. Then the reports started coming in that apparently all other localities were totally unsuitable for hops - since nothing grew - and it would be best to keep it in the original region in order to have at least some production.
 
dirk maes
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Janne. Sorry i mist your question.
My pawpaw's are planted and growing in sandy soils . Dry in summer and wet in very wet winters. We have  clay layers in the sub soils so that draining in the rainy season is slow.
The pawpaw's are shaded on the east by Taxus/Ilex 2 meter high and on the south by Phylostachis edulis
The west shade is a Liquid amber So they have a enough shade during there growing stage. The same for the persimmons.
How does a Linden tree grows in your environment?
Why your focus on nut trees?
links:
http://www.desmallekamp.nl/
http://www.proeftuin.eu/
 
Janne Lassila
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Dangit, my last message didn't get through the interwebs! Here goes another...

Dirk, thanks for your info, I may mix some sand a bit in the ground when I'm putting the paw paws down. Not too much though, but a bit. We also have clay below our topsoil...and lots and looots of small rocks and pebbles.
Linden tree(s) grow quite nicely here, we have one native species here and many hybrids planted in the urban/semiurban areas.

And why I focus on nuts....well you got to have SOME addiction, don'tcha ? I just fantasize about a nut tree here, one there, and think that one day I might produce enough so that I would never have to go to a shop and buy nuts! Hell, I might even give some to the neighbours. Nut trees are facinating! And beautiful. Plus there is the experimentation..I want to see IF one thrives, or two different ones...probably not all, but I have not planted anything that I haven't seen growing in Finland somewhere. Producing edible nuts? That is yet to be seen, but I intend to pillage (gently) every nut tree nearby that is growing nuts this fall, dry them, take pictures, observe, put in refigirator/in ground to see if they germinate, and of course open some and see if there is anything to eat inside. Most exciting times coming!

Big thanks to everyone who supplied links, I spent two hours just browsing (and google translating the pages)! I hope they can answer to me in english, since many of their pages didn't have that languageoption. Or Finnish language option, how bizarre ?!

-Janne
 
dirk maes
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Janne
I only described the situation I am dealing with.
There are multiple treads on planting and growing paw paw's on the forum.
I think this is the forum for questions on paw-paw's.
 
Janne Lassila
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So you did, dirk. Sorry for misinterpreting your post as a "guide to plant pawpaws" ! I have thoroughly browsed all the pawpaw-related topics here, so maybe I dare to sum all the info from them and just plant away.

-Janne
 
dirk maes
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Oh I forgot to mention the monkey puzzle tree. It grows quite well here and gives big nuts with a chestnut taste. Takes 30 years to fruit. Helas.
 
David Livingston
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plus monkey puzzle trees have different sexes like holly so you better have a female one and a male one
 
Quinn Trejo
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If you can get black cherry or black walnut, both grow very well in northern Michigan, which I'm told has a very similar environment to Finland.
 
Janne Lassila
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Monkey puzzle tree, what a bizarre name . I wonder where I could ever get those seedlings or seeds to here, might be as hard as korean pine to get. I'll try to scour the nurseries, but these times it really feels that a seed exchange would be the best thing to happen to me!
Black walnut I am intending to plant, though the nurseries here (the few that offer it) only offer unknown varieties, so good possibly for timber, but unknown how good to eat. I figure it should be a GOOD cultivar for the nut to crack nicely? I wonder how easy it would be to get scion wood from an excellent tree, would the scions survive for example a trip over the atlantic ocean?
 
Ken W Wilson
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I'm trying to find some hickory nuts. They are the best tasting nut, and there are some in the area, but I haven't seen any in years. I should be able to find some pecans, but the trees look pretty bare. It's a little early and the leaves are still on so they're hard to see. I'll let you know in a month or so. I've got black walnut but they are wild. Small and hard to shell.
 
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