• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • paul wheaton
  • Nicole Alderman
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Beau Davidson
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Casie Becker
  • Mike Barkley

The revolution starts in the kitchen – Magnificent magnesium

 
Posts: 32
6
  • Likes 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Last week we were at the pregnancy care and we were very dissappointed. Beside many other misleading informations, the nurse told us, that you have to take pills for getting the magnesium you need,  you cannot find it in food.
Well, this is bullshit. After we came home, we started to inform ourselves and now we want to share with you what we found out:
First, for what do we need magnesium? It contributes to the proper functioning of the heart, the muscles and the nervous system, to metabolism and to the development of bones and teeth. It is decreasing stress, muscle cramps and blood pressure and increasing physical performance. It helps by headache and premenstrual syndrom.

Magnesium is an essential mineral, that means our body cannot produce it by itself. But where can we find it?
10% of your daily need you can take from the drinking water, the rest from food.
Good sources of magnesium are:
Vegetables that are high on clorophyl like spinach, cabbage and chard, beside potato and kohlrabi.
Nuts and seeds like sunflower seeds, walnuts, almonds, cashews, pine seeds and pecan nuts. One of the best source of magnesium are pumpkin seeds. Half a mug of them covers your daily need of magnesium.
Integral cereals, specially spelt, rye and oatflakes or in any kind of bran.
Beans, specially soybeans, yellow peas and lentils.
Bananas, avocados, berries and some fishes like mackerel, salmon or tuna and good quality dark chocolate.

But it is not only about to eat food that contains a high amount of magnesium, but to take care, that your body also can absorb and use it. Not good are alcohol and refined sugar. They increase the magnesium excretion through the urine. You should avoid greasy food and preservatives, too. They inhibit the absorption of magnesium.
Also not a good source to get magnesium from are milk and milk products. Even though they contain magnesium, they are also rich in calcium. And calcium and magnesium have a difficult relation. Calcium is a magnesium antagonist. That means they have overlapping transport systems in the body. So when you take them together, they compete for absorption.
But on the other hand, magnesium increases the bioavailability of calcium. It helps our body to put calcium into the bones. When you take too much calcium without enough magnesium, the calcium can be collected in the soft tissues and cause arthritis. So in some cases of a calcium lack it is even better to consume more magnesium instead of calcium.

Good for getting the magnesium your body needs, is food that contains vitamin B6, which helps to absorb magnesium. We tried to find some that do not contain too much calcium, like egg yellow, integral flour, corn, avocado and banana.
You can also find B6 in milk, meat, liver, beans and yeast, but these also have a high amount of calcium.

We tried directly to intergrate our new knowledge into our daily life and started the next day with a
salad with walnuts, mozzarella and egg. To it we made a bread out of integral spelt flour mixed with wheat flour.

For the salad we took half a lettuce, 2 tomatoes, four eggs, 10 walnuts, one mozzarella, a little red onion and a little bit of pickled cabbage.
We cooked the eggs, cut everything in little pieces and mixed it.  To it we made a fresh dressing out of three spoons of tejföl. It is a hungarian speciality. If you can not find it, sour cream will do it, too.  
The tejföl we mixed with pumpkinseed oil, home made chilli paste, green pepper, a little bit of nutmeg, half a tea spoon of raw brown cane sugar and a pinch of salt.

For the bread first we let the yeast come: Put in a mug yeast in little pieces (around 20 g), add one spoon of raw brown cane sugar and pour over lukewarm water. Leave it for 5 minutes until there is a kind of foam on the top. Take a bigger bowl (better glass or clay, not metal), pour the yeast with the water inside and mix it with one spoon of grease. This time we took goose grease, but any kind of oil or grease is good. Add a pinch of salt, and start hand by hand mixing the flour in it. First with a wooden spoon, and then when the dough is not anymore so sticky, with hand. Mix the dough until you can form a kind of ball out of it that do not stick on your hand. Then sprinkle a hand of flour over it, cover the bowl with a clean cotton and leave it on a warm place for at least half an hour, better is an hour. Then work on it one more time with your hands, oil a baking sheet, put the dough on it, flatten it a bit (to around 3 cm), and cut with a knife squares on the top. Leave it for 20-30 minutes on 200 degree in the oven until it is getting nice brown and crispy.

And in the evening we were eating self made gnocchies with broccoli.

For the gnocchies you cook around a kilo of potatoes. While they are still warm, you smash them and mix an egg, salt, pepper, chilli and a spoon of sodium bicarbonate into it. Then you start to add hand by hand flour to it until it is not anymore so sticky and you can take it out in one piece from the bowl.
Put the dough on a floured surface, flatten it (around 1 cm), cut it to 1 cm wide stripes. Then each stripe you cut into pieces and form dumplings out of them. You put them in salted boiling water and cook them until they raise to the surface. Don't be surprised, it takes really short time.
Then you fry in butter broccoli, carrot, onion and garlic with salt and pepper. When they are good fried, you add the gnocchies to it and fry them together for a bit.
We mixed in the end two spoons of tejföl in it.

By writing this article we realized that probably one of the best magnesium source and also very yummy one is banana pancake tower out of integral flour with dark chocolate sauce and walnuts.

A recipe for a pancake tower you can find on our webpage: blueberrybeach.com in the Kitchen category. And many recipes more...

Have a beautiful day!
Love and kisses,
Zoé and Joshua
full-of-magnesium.JPG
Good for getting the magnesium your body needs,
Good for getting the magnesium your body needs,
salad-with-bread.JPG
Good sources of magnesium
Good sources of magnesium
Gnocchies.JPG
Good sources of magnesium
Good sources of magnesium
 
Rocket Scientist
Posts: 4800
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1839
cat pig rocket stoves
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
oh my ! That looks yummy !!! and good for you as well !  Thanks for sharing
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you, Thomas. You are welcome!
 
gardener
Posts: 1508
Location: Virginia (zone 7)
357
hugelkultur dog forest garden fish hunting trees books food preservation solar
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Have an apple (virtual). They contain 9 mg of Mg for a medium size fruit.

Congratulations and thanks for the informative post.
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Karen! Apple is one of our favoutite fruit.
We wish you a beautiful day.
 
master steward
Posts: 9281
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2788
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Zoé Keleti wrote:Last week we were at the pregnancy care and we were very dissappointed. Beside many other misleading informations, the nurse told us, that you have to take pills for getting the magnesium you need,  you cannot find it in food.



Congratulations on soon to be new parents!  I am sorry that your visit was disappointing. You have done some great research.

It is not uncommon for doctors to prescribe prenatal vitamins.  And if you don't want to take vitamins then you need a prenatal diet so that the baby will get what it need to develop.

Good nutrition during pregnancy, and enough of it, is very important for your baby to grow and develop. You should consume about 300 more calories per day than you did before you became pregnant.

The U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance (USRDA) for calcium is 1,000 mg per day for pregnant and breastfeeding women over age 18.

Calcium is also found in foods including green vegetables (broccoli, spinach, and greens), seafood, dried peas, and beans.
Vitamin D will help your body use calcium. Adequate amounts of vitamin D can be obtained through exposure to the sun and in fortified milk, eggs, and fish.

Eat at least three servings of iron-rich foods, such as lean meats, spinach, beans, and breakfast cereals each day to ensure you are getting 27 mg of iron daily.

While you're pregnant, you will need 220 micrograms of iodine a day to help ensure your baby's brain and nervous system development. Choose from a variety of dairy products -- milk, cheese (especially cottage cheese), yogurt -- as well as baked potatoes, cooked navy beans, and limited amounts -- 8 to 12 oz per week -- of seafood such as cod, salmon, and shrimp.

Choose at least one good source of vitamin C every day, such as oranges, grapefruits, strawberries, honeydew, papaya, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, green peppers, tomatoes, and mustard greens. Pregnant women need 80 - 85 mg of vitamin C a day.

Choose at least one good source of folate every day, like dark green leafy vegetables, veal, and legumes (lima beans, black beans, black-eyed peas and chickpeas). Every pregnant woman needs at least 0.64 mg of folate per day to help prevent neural tube defects such as spina bifida. Man-made supplements of folate are called folic acidand can be an important option when you are pregnant.

Choose at least one source of vitamin A every other day. Sources of vitamin A include carrots, pumpkins, sweet potatoes, spinach, water squash, turnip greens, beet greens, apricots, and cantaloupe.

Iron is a mineral that makes up an important part of hemoglobin, the substance in blood that carries oxygen throughout the body. Iron also carries oxygen in muscles, helping them function properly. Iron helps increase your resistance to stress and disease.  The body absorbs iron more efficiently during pregnancy; therefore, it is important to consume more iron while you are pregnant to ensure that you and your baby are getting enough oxygen. The U.S. RDA for iron is 27 mg per day for pregnant women and  9 - 10 mg for breastfeeding women. Eating at least three servings of iron-rich foods a day will help ensure that you are getting 27 mg of iron in your daily diet. The best sources of iron include enriched grain products, lean meat, poultry, fish, and leafy green vegetables.   The National Academy of Sciences recommends that all pregnant women following a balanced diet take an iron supplement providing 27 mg of iron during the second and third trimesters of pregnancy (that's the amount in most prenatal vitamins).

http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/eating-right-when-pregnant

Much of this information may have been in your research so maybe this might help other soon to be mothers.



 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Anne, thank you very much for your congratulations and for all the useful informations. Right now Zoé does not want to take any supplements. For that we are happy for every information about nutrition and we think with a healthy diet it should be fine. Until now, the blood analyses and the ultrasound is good. The little boy is developing perfect. We wish you a beautiful day, Zoé and Joshua  
 
Mother Tree
Posts: 11893
Location: Portugal
2573
6
dog duck forest garden tiny house books wofati bike bee solar rocket stoves greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
From what I remember, a huge percentage of the US population is magnesium deficient, and it's not possible to detect magnesium deficiency by blood analysis.  

I ran out a year or so back and the first symptoms were some pretty terrifying heart palpitations and highly disturbed pulse rhythms while I was out walking.  I thought I wasn't going to make it home!  I didn't manage to make any headway with the symptoms just by improving my diet, and I was already eating a pretty high magnesium diet.  A pinch of epsom salts in my water kept the worst of the symptoms away, but I only started to make real progress when I started to take 500 mg tablets of magnesium twice daily, in the form of magnesium oxide.  

 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey Burra, thanks for your post. We do not really understand what has happen to you. You said you were already eating a pretty high magnesium diet, but still you had syndroms of  magnesium lack. How could this happen? Is it connected to a specific sickness or to lifestyle? Did you ever found out?
And now, you still have to take the tablets?
Thanks for sharing,
have a beautiful day
Zoé and Joshua
 
Burra Maluca
Mother Tree
Posts: 11893
Location: Portugal
2573
6
dog duck forest garden tiny house books wofati bike bee solar rocket stoves greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Apparently a high stress lifestyle will 'use up' magnesium, though I don't really understand the mechanism.  I was also losing a lot of nutrients through excessive sweating and bleeding and it finally caught up with me - I simply couldn't replace it fast enough just through food.  The danger, as I understand it, is that we rely on our bones to act as a reservoir for magnesium.  The amount in the blood is critical, and we can't test the reservoir in the bones, only in the blood.  So when the reserves in the bones run dry, a tiny dip in what is in the blood is enough to trigger some pretty drastic symptoms.  

I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of how this might apply to pregnant women will join in on this discussion, but I can imagine that if a woman with very low reserves got pregnant, the developing baby might just deplete the amount of magnesium in the blood enough to cause some serious problems.  And with no test available to check the reserves, I guess it's safer to recommend a supplement to everyone.  

I'm still taking one 500 mg tablet a day to try to build up my reserves.  I understand that it's virtually impossible to overdose on the stuff and any excess will get peed out, which will supply magnesium to my plants.  I haven't experimented for a couple of months, but if I'm stressed out or skip a few tablets, the palpitations would return if I lay down.  I make sure I keep the tablets next to my bed so that if I notice any when I lie down at night, I have them right there for when I remember about them.  The crazy palpitations during the day and the messed up heart rhythms seem to have gone away completely.  I always take a heart rate monitor with me when I go out and stick to paths I can be rescued from, just in case.  But watching my monitor going off the charts for a minute, then dropping down to 20 for another minute, then bouncing around between the two while feeling exceedingly weird and light headed was enough to make me take things seriously.  I can't imagine that sort of thing happening and it not having some kind of adverse effect on an unborn baby.  And yes, I had huge problems with iron too, due to the blood loss.  I gave up and took tablets for that, too, when I realised I'd have to eat a pound of liver every day to replace the iron in the blood I was losing.  Just couldn't stomach that amount.

I think there's also some relationship between calcium and magnesium absorption you might want to look into.  Something like too much calcium will inhibit magnesium?  Anyone know more?  
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Burra, thank you very much for sharing. We do not lnow your specific case, but we are convinced that a healthy body with a healthy diet and lifestyle can stand life without any supplements. The same for a healthy baby with a healthy mother. With this oppinion we are not alone. We decided for homebirth and for that for two month the pregnancy is also followed by a professional midwife. She thinks the same, together with the leading gynecologist and obstetrician of the local hospital.
We also do not think that a lifelong dependence on tablets is a perspective or solution.
To the reserve of the magnesium in the bones. What we read is that our bodies store in general not much magnesium in the bones. It is connected to our past. Compared to our ancestors our diet has changed a lot but our bodies not so much. In older times the diet was much more rich on magnesium and much less on calcium. For that our body is storing calcium in a high amount, but is used to get a daily amount of magnesium from the food.
To the relation of magnesium and calcium absorption. We already wrote about this in the above article.  

But it is not only about to eat food that contains a high amount of magnesium, but to take care, that your body also can absorb and use it. Not good are alcohol and refined sugar. They increase the magnesium excretion through the urine. You should avoid greasy food and preservatives, too. They inhibit the absorption of magnesium.
Also not a good source to get magnesium from are milk and milk products. Even though they contain magnesium, they are also rich in calcium. And calcium and magnesium have a difficult relation. Calcium is a magnesium antagonist. That means they have overlapping transport systems in the body. So when you take them together, they compete for absorption.
But on the other hand, magnesium increases the bioavailability of calcium. It helps our body to put calcium into the bones. When you take too much calcium without enough magnesium, the calcium can be collected in the soft tissues and cause arthritis. So in some cases of a calcium lack it is even better to consume more magnesium instead of calcium.



If you want to read more about healthy lifestyle, food and recipes, you are welcome to visit us on our homepage: blueberrybeach.com

Have a beautiful day
Zoé and Joshua
 
master steward & author
Posts: 27197
Location: Left Coast Canada
8744
4
books chicken cooking fiber arts sheep writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I love this thread.  I'm a huge advocate of getting as much of our nutrition as possible from diet.  I think that (in most situations) we can get more usable nutrition from good food.  If we couldn't, then human's wouldn't have made it this far.  The invention of the vitamin pill is a relatively new thing in our history.

That said, I've observed that there are stresses in our modern world (environmental, dietary, and others) that damage the bodies ability to absorb nutrition from our food.  Sometimes this is permanent, sometimes temporary.  I'm very lucky that in my case, it was temporary.  I was very ill from a chronic infection, so ill that for about a year, I had to go twice a week to this place where they hooked me up to an IV and basically pumped a general vitamin mix into me.  I was on all sorts of supplements at the time, but my gut was so damaged, they wouldn't absorb into my system.  I was always a moderately healthy eater by today's standards.  It was through all these supplements and adopting a diet where I start with ingredients instead of pre-made food - many of these ingredients I grow myself to ensure they are the quality I require - that I was able to get to a place where I can sustain myself without supplements.  I suspect other people have bodies that are even more damaged, so it makes sense for them to take supplements.  


Getting back to the idea of a magnesium-rich diet for mothers.  I have a couple of friends who are expecting, one of them in particular, is very keen to eat as healthy diet as possible.  The problem is she's getting confused with all the different opinions of what a 'healthy diet' is for a would-be mother.  I'm glad you're sharing your experiences here.  It comes at a very good time.  
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you very much for your post. We are happy that you like this thread and we are hoping it can help other people to improve their diet in a natural way. We are also very big fans of growing your own food. We see here one of the most important key element for a change in society to more sustainability, a higher environmental consciousness and a happier life. We think food should be grown with love, cooked with love and eaten with love. The revolution starts in the kitchen.
 
Posts: 51
Location: Adelaide, Australia
13
3
books urban bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Anne Miller wrote:Man-made supplements of folate are called folic acid and can be an important option when you are pregnant.



I would caution strongly against taking any supplement with folic acid in it, especially while pregnant.

Folic acid - the synthetic version of folate - cannot be absorbed properly by people with an MTHFR polymorphism (a mutation of the DNA at a particular spot in the genome). Depending on the position and severity of the polymorphism, folic acid could even be toxic to the person taking it. It's currently estimated that up to 60% of the population may have an MTHFR polymorphism, but most people don't know it.

In pregnancy, taking folic acid can lead to a greatly increased risk of tongue or lip ties in the baby. A tie is when the small piece of skin that holds the lip to the teeth or the tongue to the base of the mouth are much thicker and/or shorter than usual. These are Not Fun. They also aren't looked for by most doctors, midwives, or even lactation consultants, and can make establishing and maintaining breastfeeding very difficult if they aren't treated. My first child had an undiagnosed lip tie (we didn't catch it until about 10 months) and, well, let's just say that there should NOT be that much nipple scabbing involved in establishing the breastfeeding relationship.

If anyone finds themselves wanting to take a prenatal vitamin (I do, no judgement here), it's very important to make sure that it has folate in the form of either FOLINIC acid, or true folate. Folinic acid tends to be a better choice because it's one of the end-stage forms of folate - that is, it's what your body converts folate from food sources into.



Now, as for magnesium deficiency - this can be a tricky one. I absolutely agree that getting vitamins and minerals from food sources trumps a pill any day. Unfortunately, that only works if the food was grown on land that had the minerals present in the first place. Given that magnesium is one of the first minerals to really suffer under chemical based land management practises, it's not always available for the plants to uptake and then pass onto us/meat animals. This is especially true in certain regions of the world with very old soils. I live in Australia, for instance, which has some of the oldest soils in the world. It's not coincidence that there's also chronic magnesium deficiency in our soils. And double unfortunately, magnesium doesn't "reappear" in the soils once the land is shifted to permaculture techniques and sustainable management systems. So even if a grower is using super duper awesome better-than-organic growing practises, if they didn't get their soil tested to know what deficiencies are there and start correcting them, the deficiencies will still be present in the food.

In my case, I've decided I'd rather supplement with magnesium via Epsom salt and magnesium chloride soaks, rather than take the risk of becoming deficient while gestating. Magnesium is actually absorbed more efficiently through the skin than through the digestive tract (in supplement form that is). It also bypasses the rather low bowel tolerance threshold that magnesium has - one of the first signs you've taken too much at once is loose bowels. This low tolerance is why most people recommend starting with a small initial dose of an oral magnesium supplement and building up gradually.
 
Posts: 9
Location: SE Michigan
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
FYI, stinging nettle has exceptionally high magnesium (50.7 mg per cup; spinach is 23.7 mg per cup as a comparison). Steamed or cooked, nettle is rendered harmless and is a great green taste-wise. Just make sure you cook it!  
 
Posts: 525
Location: Northern Germany (Zone 8a)
25
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
yes... i think there s a problem with soils being deficiant in magnesium. i read a story where a farmer had sick cows, because of lack of magnesium in the soil of his pasture.

soaking in epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) and magnesium chloride is a good thing. you can use the water of the epsom salt bath as fertilizer for your soil.
a good option is to was with epsom salts or magnesium chloride. a few teaspoons per washing-basin should do. for me, i choose a salt-concentration where the water feels oily/soapy but does not produce a burning-sensation on the skin. then just wash your body and let it air-dry. i instantly dress after washing, no toweling.

stress, industry-food, some medicine, refined sugar, alcohol etc. will produce acids in the body. the body will use minerals to neutralize the acid. this creates certain salts that will be stored in the body. with most peoples modern lifestyle/food, the bodies mineral-stores will be depleted and the dumps of salts/toxins will be full over time. this will cause lots of sicknesses. but it s a process that takes many years.
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Phoenix, Emily and Tobias,
we like very much the information you share. We just bought land in Hungary and now we would be curious about the quality of our soil. Does anyone have an idea how to test it?
We also like the idea with the magnesium bath. What exactly is epson salt?
Have a beautiful day
Zoé and Joshua
 
steward
Posts: 3540
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
867
8
hugelkultur urban chicken food preservation bike bee
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate crystals that are traditionally used as a soak for sore muscles.  They are cool looking crystals - when I make bath bombs I like to put epsom salt in with the sea salt because it makes the bombs more sparkly.
 
Zoé Keleti
Posts: 32
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you, Julia. Sounds cool, we will try to get them.
Have a beautiful day,
Zoé and Joshua
 
Anne Miller
master steward
Posts: 9281
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2788
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"Despite the name, Epsom salt isn't like the stuff you put on your fries. It's called a salt because of its chemical structure. The "Epsom" part is a place in England where it's found in natural springs.

You can find it in most drugstores, usually around the aspirin and laxatives. Many grocery and natural food stores also carry it. A large box costs just a few dollars.

In water, it breaks down into magnesium and sulfate. The theory is that when you soak in an Epsom salt bath, these get into your body through your skin. That hasn't been proven, but just soaking in warm water can help relax muscles and loosen stiff joints.

People use Epsom salt baths as a home treatment for:

   Arthritis pain and swelling
   Bruises and sprains
   Fibromyalgia, a condition that makes your muscles, ligaments, and tendons hurt, and causes tender points throughout your body
   Ingrown toenails
   Insomnia
   Psoriasis, a disease that causes red, itchy, scaly skin
   Sore muscles after working out
   Soreness from diarrhea during chemotherapy
   Sunburn pain and redness
   Tired, swollen feet

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/epsom-salt-bath#1

Magnesium sulfate is an inorganic salt (chemical compound) containing magnesium, sulfur and oxygen, with the formula MgSO4. It is often encountered as the heptahydrate sulfate mineral epsomite (MgSO4·7H2O), commonly called Epsom salt, taking its name from a bitter saline spring in Epsom in Surrey, England, where the salt was produced from the springs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_sulfate
 
Tobias Ber
Posts: 525
Location: Northern Germany (Zone 8a)
25
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
for me the "proof" that magnesium can be absorbed through the skin is the experience, i get after washing with magnesium chloride. just check it out.

it looks that certain people/companies/organizations do not want people to know about that. when i checked for epsom salt and magnesium chloride on amazon, there was one person posting a link that magnesium can t be absorbed through the skin under every comment that stated it. corporate troll?

these salts are 1-2€ per kg. compare that to the price of magnesium supplements in drugstores. and these even do not work very well, because the body can only use a small percentage of orally taken magnesium supplements. and higher doses are likely to cause diarrhae.

you list ailments that can be prevented by magnesium. how much money is made with treatments for these ailments?

sorry for the rant.

 
Anne Miller
master steward
Posts: 9281
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2788
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Tobias Ber wrote:for me the "proof" that magnesium can be absorbed through the skin is the experience, i get after washing with magnesium chloride. just check it out.



The only experience I personally have experiences is with a swollen foot from a bunion; but both DH [dear hubby] and daughter thinks it is an important treatment for sore muscles.

it looks that certain people/companies/organizations do not want people to know about that. when i checked for epsom salt and magnesium chloride on amazon, there was one person posting a link that magnesium can t be absorbed through the skin under every comment that stated it. corporate troll?

these salts are 1-2€ per kg. compare that to the price of magnesium supplements in drugstores. and these even do not work very well, because the body can only use a small percentage of orally taken magnesium supplements. and higher doses are likely to cause diarrhae.

you list ailments that can be prevented by magnesium. how much money is made with treatments for these ailments? sorry for the rant.



I am sorry I do not understand your rant and if I offended you I am also sorry.  I was only trying to be helpful.  I have no experience with soaking or taking supplements to absorb magnesium  The first article was posted so Zoe would know where to buy Epson salts.  On the drug aisle at the grocery today it was on a bottom shelf and cost $5.00 american dollars.

The ailments that were posted in the webmd article were what people use epsom salts for not what to prevent these ailments.  
 
Tobias Ber
Posts: 525
Location: Northern Germany (Zone 8a)
25
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
hi anne ...

my rant (or would "ramblings" be a better word??) is not directed against anybody here. just some thoughts/observations.

what i am trying to say: magnesium is super-important. it can cure or prevent many ailments. epsom salts and magnesium chloride are very cheap.
but this information is not wide-spread yet.
there are groups that make good money from treating these ailments or selling expensive magnesium-supplements.
and people keep saying "magnesium can t be absorbed through the skin". but is there proof/evidence that it can´t?
i believe that it can. many websites write it can. if i remember it correctly hundreds of years ago people travelled to epsom to take a bath in the salty-water there. if epsom salt bath have same effect as a normal bath, people would not have travelled there to be healed of their ailments.
 
Posts: 2
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have read that, topically, your body will absorb, through the skin, only what it needs.  That supplements can overload your body, trying to get rid of the excess.  We have been using a topical spray (in a drought, baths are a luxury) Magnesium Chloride oil by Life-flo on the soles of our feet at night, and can definitely feel a difference. (Not an ad)  There is a lot of information on earthclinic.com regarding Magnesium and all it's benefits, as well as the specific compounds that are beneficial, and those that are not, also it's companion, Calcium.  That info is a whole lot different than what we see elsewhere.  

I am extremely interested in reintroducing Magnesium into our soils, and wondering if there is a way other than buying Epsom Salts to throw onto the land, so that it is available to what we are growing.  Seaweed?  What else?
 
Tobias Ber
Posts: 525
Location: Northern Germany (Zone 8a)
25
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
magnesium oil.... it s simply magnesium chloride diluted in water. recipes vary from 30 to 300gram per liter. i d go for the concentration that does not feel burning on the skin.
 
Phoenix Blackdove
Posts: 51
Location: Adelaide, Australia
13
3
books urban bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I actually did a bit of research via Google Scholar about a year back on magnesium, to help a friend with fibromyalgia. There's not a whole heap of research out there - this tends to be the case with many vitamins/minerals, because you can't patent them and thus there's not a lot of research money out there for them. There's even less available for free reading.

However, I did find one small study that examined the magnesium uptake between people using an oral supplement, a foot soak with Epsom salts, and the control group (ie no supplementation) over a 6 week period. From memory, the study concluded that:
A) all the study participants had higher magnesium levels at the end of the study
B) the people soaking in the Epsom salts had higher levels of magnesium than people taking the oral supplements,

In addition, many study participants reported feeling better than before they were taking magnesium. I can't remember what health condition the study was looking at treating with magnesium (maybe diabetes?) but they broke down "feeling better" into a few different things.

I suspect that when WebMD says things like "that hasn't been proven" what they mean is either "the author didn't bother to look for supporting research beyond the conventional approach", or else "we don't know the exact, specific mechanism by which this occurs so we can't say that it's 'proven'".
 
Phoenix Blackdove
Posts: 51
Location: Adelaide, Australia
13
3
books urban bike
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

j tunney wrote:I am extremely interested in reintroducing Magnesium into our soils, and wondering if there is a way other than buying Epsom Salts to throw onto the land, so that it is available to what we are growing.  Seaweed?  What else?



I think for me it would depend on the existing soil structure and nutrient profile, as to what I used to add magnesium back to the soil. I would be hesitant to start broad-scale nutrient "fixing" without a decent soil analysis, because 1) most soil amendments are expensive and 2) if I'm just guessing, I could guess wrong and make a bigger problem than what I was trying to solve.

I wouldn't tend to use Epsom salts over a large area - I see them as more of a home garden "quick fix". Most people recommend using it as a foliar feed when plants are showing obvious signs of deficiency. It is a salt, after all. Given that it's a highly soluble form of the mineral, I'm not convinced much would stay in the soil in a useful way.

Dolomite (dolomitic limestone) often has good amounts of magnesium (and calcium) in it. As it's used to fix acid soils, though, it may be best to skip it if your soil is already fairly alkaline. (Interestingly, alkaline soils tend to be higher in magnesium anyway. It becomes more bioavailable at higher pH, too.)

If I had animals that I was grazing on pasture, my preferred method of adding trace minerals (not just magnesium) would be in supplemental animal feed. My father is a beef cattle farmer in south-east QLD. He's been using a product range called NatraMin on his paddocks for the last 5ish years to add trace minerals back to the soil. He also supplements the cattle feed with it during drought (so most of the last five years...). Of course then he goes and burns the paddocks every year, which seems rather a waste to me, but that's a different problem. (If anyone knows how to convince an intractable, third-generation, "burn it all every year" farmer how to stop doing that, I'm all ears... 8-| )

I feel that putting the magnesium through an animal is probably the best way to add it to pasture for several reasons. First, you're supplementing the animal and keeping them healthier while the soils regenerate. In very bad conditions, this can be the difference between life and death.

Second, the magnesium is more likely to become bound up in a stable chemical form as it passes through the animal and exits as fertiliser.

Third, that fertiliser will be full of biological activity that will help both the soil structure as a whole, and the stabilisation of any other nutrients that are applied to the soil.
 
Tobias Ber
Posts: 525
Location: Northern Germany (Zone 8a)
25
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
what about using magnesium salts (epsom salt, magnesium cholride, are there more?) in your normal food? like in soups? a pinch of it to replace a certain amount of normal salt?
 
Posts: 14
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I realize this is an old article, but I liked reading it and the discussion about magnesium afterwards, so I'll reply in the hope that maybe I can save someone a lot of research.

Magnesium from plants:
I much prefer natural sources for nutrients, no argument there, but:

[*]Magnesium is harder for the body to absorb than other electrolytes, and particularly the ionic part of plant sourced magnesium is surprisingly poorly absorbed by humans, especially phytates and oxalates can drastically limit absorption.
[*]Crops are very likely somewhat deficient in magnesium for economic and practical reasons.
[*]The crops we grow have been selected for thousands of years for their resistance to pests (high phytates and oxalates) and for their ability to be as frugal as possible with their need for key electrolytes.

Magnesium from other sources:
[*]Magnesium from animal sources is very well absorbed
[*]Magnesium oxide is very very poorly absorbed (~5%) partly because it has a laxative effect, partly because oxide bonds are very strong.  
[*] Magnesium hydroxide is better absorbed, maybe up to 20%, but hydroxides have other problems. Significant laxative effect.
[*] Magnesium chloride is very common in nature (springs, rivers, lakes and seawater), plants, animals and in our blood, it's usually sold as magnesium flakes MgCl2*6H2O and it is easy for the body to absorb and doesn't have laxative effect unless taken in very high doses. But it only contains 11% Mg, quite hygroscopic. Sea salt has about 4% magnesium chloride, Nigari salt has ~92% magnesium chloride but contains enough magnesium sulfate (~6%) to make it impractical for magnesium supplementation. Magnesium chloride is used in herbivores licks stones, animal feed, baby formula and supplements. Water from shallow wells generally have more magnesium chloride than deeper wells but it tends to shift towards phosphates and sulfates in fertilized areas.
[*] Magnesium sulfate has a strong laxative effect, is an antagonist to thiamine, not well absorbed. We have magnesium sulfide in serum but eating Epsom salt is a bad idea even if it is food grade.
[*] Magnesium salts (glycinate, taurate etc.) made from amino acids are very well absorbed, is found in serum in small amounts, sold as supplements but can cross the bloodbrain barrier more easily which is nice if you want to sleep but it's hard to find data about the side effects from that. MSG is a natrium amino acid salt, crosses BB by the same mechanism and controversial enough that some reservation seems sensible with Mg amino acid salts.

All in all magnesium chloride seems to me to be the most sensible way to supplement magnesium, add some flakes to water and you will get magnesium like we have done since we walked on 4 legs.
 
Anne Miller
master steward
Posts: 9281
Location: USDA Zone 8a
2788
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Simon, welcome to the forums!

Thanks for sharing the information about magnesium.

I learned about the great benefits of magnesium chloride right here on these forums.

I buy Magnesium bath Flakes which are magnesium chloride.  I mix 50/50 with warm water in a spray bottle. This makes using them so easily.

I have read that magnesium protects the heart muscle against oxygen deprivation, prevents cholesterol accumulation and hypertension.

I use it mainly because it reduces muscle cramps and pain.

I have also read that it can help with stress and oxygen deficiency symptoms, relieves allergies and infections symptoms.

What do you usually use the magnesium chloride for and how?
 
Simon Olesen
Posts: 14
5
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thank you Anne.

Good idea with the bath salts, where I'm from it's harder to find magnesium chloride that's both food grade and has a credible lab test, so I actually ended up buying a 25kg bag for cattle which oddly enough has a great labtest, cost almost nothing and even has a few good trace minerals. Before settling on magnesium chloride I went through so many magnesium supplements but I really don't like the pills, bisglycinate is effective but the frankenfood element makes me uncomfortable. I tried getting it from plants but it just weren't working now matter how nice the numbers looked in chronometer lol. I was so frustrated because food blogs and official nutritional advice frequently laud plant sources as healthy and complete sources of minerals, but no matter how many pumpkin seeds and how much spinach i got it just was not cutting it so i finally went beyond the blogs and official advice and spent a ridiculous amount of time reading up on magnesium.

So now a bit more disillusioned I'm sipping on magnesium water originally made for cattle, but my heart hasn't skipped a beat in ages, my BP average dropped 20 points and I sleep so much better. My recipe is 45g MgCl, 60g water and 20g potassium bicarbonate with a bit of ginger and lemon which lasts about 2 weeks for me, 1 cap of concentrate is about 1,4g of magnesium. I find it's a bit better for intuitive eating to add a bit of taste to it so that my tastebuds can make me itch for the magnesium water when I need more, but realistically it's mostly rutine and it's only in the summer or when I'm training more I find myself intuitively reaching for magnesium water without thinking. I really like the idea of intuitive eating though, as opposed to some factory pressed pill you have to swallow dutifully without any real sensory connection between what you put in your mouth and what it does to your body.

I know from personal experience that magnesium helps with hypertension, it does it in a number of ways, but these are the ones I experienced:
* Smooth muscle needs Mg to extend, calcium to contract and K to negotiate the ion exchange, so you feel your legs cramp (contract without releasing) when short of magnesium but smooth muscle in your veins need to extend to work properly too, so when short of magnesium blood flow back from the legs have less assistance from vein contraction which is bad since the heart has to pump harder to try and make up for it, but the heart needs to extend it's musculature to properly pump which it struggles to do fully when low on magnesium.
* Tear canals have smooth muscle too and it can give blurry vision if the eyes are not properly wet, especially in the summer.
* Digestive system has a lot of smooth muscle, bloating, indigestion and gut motility problems can be Mg (or B1) shortage, heart burn and difficulty swallowing and difficulty absorbing some B vitamins (mainly B1 and B6) can be Mg problems.
* Metabolic issues, I didn't put on weight, but Mg is intimately involved in energy metabolism, more Mg is used with carbohydrates but it's also integral in lipid metabolism so if you are short on magnesium then you are properly short on B1 because of absorption, both are crucial for proper energy production so you feel tired all the time and especially tired after eating lots of empty carbs, kind of scatterbrained and sleepy instead of getting that sugar kick. What happens is the body has to use an alternate metabolic pathway to metabolize the carbs but it is not very effective, makes your heart kick a bit because serum Mg drops more and raises cortisol (stress hormone) and insulin to better empty the blood of carbs and you get thirsty because of serum osmotic effects of insulin, carbs and lactic acid. It's a factor for diabetes for sure, but even though I crashed hard on carbs I was never diagnosed with diabetes.
* Immune issues, I don't really understand it properly, but the systemic increase in cortisol suppresses normal immune function (specific) but oddly enough increases unspecific immune function over time (cytokines) so you don't have the white blood cells to regulate immune function much, but you have cytokines swimming around in excess and attacking things in excess for some reason, seems like a strange response to me, but none the less I had sore joints all the time, allergies, headaches and half a cough all the time, for no apparent reason.
** Immune issues from metabolism, Seems like Mg deficiency promotes more primitive metabolism of both carbs and lipids, more lactic acid from carbs and impaired PUFA metabolism which is likely why deficiency raises "cholesterol" (not the chemical cholesterol, but the lipoproteins doctors call cholesterol which are used to transport lipids in blood) because very unsaturated fatty acids remain largely unmetabolized and just get's shuffled around in lipoprotein transporters instead of getting burned off for energy. Lactic acid metabolism is somewhat inflammatory but the impaired lipid metabolism seems to generate ROS and untimely apoptosis with what seems like quite inflammatory effects, especially over time.
* Insulin resistance, partly from impaired metabolism, partly from impaired cell glucose uptake, leads to high fasting insulin, increasing insulin resistance over time and a greater proportion of glucose stored as fat. Takes considerable time to reverse.
* nerve issues, especially hands and feet, but for me it didn't get further than some prickling in the feet, could feel myself getting really clumsy when running in the forest.
*Sleep problems
* mood, concentration and cognitive problems in general, humans need energy to live!

Magnesium deficiency really did me in good, I was at the doctors so many times and always walked out with half a story and another pill that did ....something. She mentioned magnesium the second time i was there and prescribed me magnesium oxide of all things lol, it did nothing but gave me a bad stomach. After another 3 years and a lot of half chats with her and a whole lot of different pills I had to have my appendix removed and accidentally got serum magnesium measured before surgery by the worlds most grumpy doctor, but he was awesome lol, he fixed me an Mg drop and finally I started feeling human again. By now pretty much all symptoms are gone, don't eat a single pill anymore and I can run in the forest again, but I do still have a bit of insulin resistance left to work on.

Sorry about the long reply, I guess I'm still coming to terms with the whole thing. It seems so strange to me that every farmer knows to give their animals a lickstone with bioavailable magnesium but my doctor prescribed me what is basically actual stone, milled and put in a pill. More than Half the vitamins at my pharmacy contains magnesium oxide and it really is basically a stone and just as digestible at literally 12000 times the price of that lickstone farmers give their cattle or the magnesium chloride used to water their feed, but less effective and more unhealthy. I couldn't find a single MgO product at the farmers market here, and the only d2 vitamins were in the soy pellets.  

 
30 seconds to difuse a loaf of bread ... here, use this tiny ad:
Our perennial nursery has sprouted!
https://permies.com/t/174246
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic