Hugel on bedrock?

Hi all, first poster here.

I have a challenge in that I am working with mostly bare bedrock (some scots pine, some norway spruce), acidic soil. I would like to be able to plant diverse bushes and trees, but the property is not accessible by car - everything must be carried by boat and hand. I.e. getting 10 tonnes of compost soil is out of the question.

One issue is that rainfall tends to accumulate in pits after rainfall and in winter (root rot), while in summer drying out is a real problem.

We do have plenty of scots pine. My question is if I could/should use excess pine logs, branches and needles along with household food waste in hugel mounds with a thin layer of semi composed pine needles/soil on top. Would that stabilize moisture (if placed on a sloping piece of rock)? Would it turn into good soil and a nice spot to grow?

My hope is to be able to plant hardy figs and grapes, apricot, blackberry and strawberry. I do realize that this is going to be a multi-year project.

Would it make sense to introduce myko, as there is very little broad-leaves trees in the area due to sheep grazing.

Thanks for any response
Knut

Hi Knut,
I am definitely no expert, but I've listened to Paul a lot and just made my own hugel. I know I've heard Paul talk about how we work with what we've got, so if you've got pine and food scraps I'd say go for it! You mentioned sheep grazing, perhaps you could dig some sod from someplace close to turn over onto your hugel? I used sod we'd dug to put in raspberries/blackberries elsewhere. Or how about sheep manure? Something to consider might be trying initially to grow some things that will help to mitigate the acidity of the soil (pine needles tend to make it more acid). All in all, of you can build it fairly easily it could be what you need to get some plantable soil going, probably not the first year, but worth a try! I hope you'll update us with what you end up doing.

Welcome Knut!
I don't know about hugelkulture beyond what it is. I just wanted to comment on your lack of ability to bring in materials. I know that with hugelculture you add pockets of different materials but still require a decent "topping". My suggestion is aimed more at producing that topping than building hugelkultures. Of course, I have no idea how big your project is and if you visit the site often, but if you are building hugels in stages and you are there a lot, you could "manufacture" a cubic m of compost in around a month using the method demonstrated by Geoff Lawton and others. there are loads of youtube videos    and Geoff has a complete soil building video that is very interesting.

I have personally tried it and it does work! I had a site that was in a forest of blue gums far away from my house. I would accumulate a bucket of kitchen scraps (green matter) and take it whenever it was full. I'd alternate with sacks of horse manure (nitrogen and innoculants) I could carry up. I used the bluegum leaves and twigs (you could use pine needles) for carbon and build a 1 square meter pile, as the carbon needs to be around 80%, most of the material is onsite. Once I'd completed the pile-I built the first one over 2 weeks- I let it sit for 4 days before starting to turn. The first pile took about 5 weeks in total but I started building the next pile as soon as I had finished building the first. You very quickly end up with loads of piles! Now, I know (from experience) that turning loads of piles is a lot of work but I found that you could skip turnings -you get days when you just can't face it-which lengthened the process slightly. I am a not-so-young, slightly unfit woman and I regularly managed to turn a fluctuating total of up to 5 piles. Stacking functions really, as I improved my health and fitness levels! Adding pee or comfrey tea is also a great way of adding moisture and nitrogen and can be carried up in a 20L drum. I would advise adding the pee at the beginning to allow time and heat to sterilise.

Just an idea, each one's situation is different. maybe someone else has something else to offer?

Hi Knut.

I once gardened on a remote wilderness island. Your question reminds me of that situation.  Bedrock with root mass and evergreen needles very acidic soil.  For me, I was on an island in the ocean.  We used to go shopping around the other islets for materials like sand, and drag kelp out of the swirling waters in the bay, when they passed by the garden.  Can you provide any other details?  How long a walk in is it?  How much time you spend there, how frequently you make a trip in to your property.  

What do you eat when you are there?  And are you making use of the humanure?

Are there predators, or could you have some chickens and goats or sheep that would eat the pines (in addition to what ever else it takes to balance their diet)
and create biomass?  What is the climate/ how much rainfall do you get (on that island where I was, it was 12 feet per year).  If you are having that much rainfall, you would want to divert a lot of it so that it did not wash through your pile and carry away all the decomposed material.  If you are building on solid bedrock, I think it would be fairly difficult, because the ground underneath becomes part of the habitat the plants dwell on, roots go in, and it is a resevoir for all the good stuff that comes from the hugel mound.  You would want a way to capture the run off and recycle it.

Could you post some pictures to help us better understand?

knut inge wrote:Hi all, first poster here.

As a first time poster we suggest you fill out your profile which will list certain things with your name when you post such as your location weather and soil type which makes it easier to make sure we are giving appropriate advice for your conditions. Go to profile at the top of the page or click on your name will take you to your profile page but selecting "profile wil alow you to edit it. You can also send a message to one individual by clicking on their name and select the PM button in their profile.

knut inge wrote:
I have a challenge in that I am working with mostly bare bedrock (some scots pine, some norway spruce), acidic soil. I would like to be able to plant diverse bushes and trees, but the property is not accessible by car - everything must be carried by boat and hand. I.e. getting 10 tonnes of compost soil is out of the question.

As others have commented the principle is to use what you have at hand. One advantage of this is that what soil life is there has adapted to that material. It has been found that soil life will balance the PH appropriately over time so adding the native soil with the small debris will give the soil life a home to work in.

knut inge wrote:
One issue is that rainfall tends to accumulate in pits after rainfall and in winter (root rot), while in summer drying out is a real problem.

So this is the principle of hugelkultur fill the rain pits with woody material and raise the top of the soil above the height of the pit. Then the rotted material will be a sponge to hold the water for the summer.

knut inge wrote:
We do have plenty of scots pine. My question is if I could/should use excess pine logs, branches and needles along with household food waste in hugel mounds with a thin layer of semi composed pine needles/soil on top. Would that stabilize moisture (if placed on a sloping piece of rock)? Would it turn into good soil and a nice spot to grow?

It would probably do better in the wet pit but should improve on a sloping rock if that is necessary for your plan. That is the first step; draw up a plan so whee you place things will work long term ore give you benefit when moved later when your time line alows you to further your plan.

knut inge wrote:
My hope is to be able to plant hardy figs and grapes, apricot, blackberry and strawberry. I do realize that this is going to be a multi-year project.

Blackberries are a good pioneer species. Grapes when thriving can supply a lot of biomass when pruned properly. Long vines in summer need to be cut back to encourage fruiting buds and when fruiting begins to put sugar into the fruit instead of growth. I use a hedge trimmer on mine cutting just outside the level of fruit. As the time line progresses observe micro climates where strawberries and figs will thrive.

knut inge wrote:
Would it make sense to introduce myko, as there is very little broad-leaves trees in the area due to sheep grazing.

Replacing what has been removed by man's desire to monocrop for maximum short term profit is usually advisable but needs to be part of a plan.

knut inge wrote:
Thanks for any response
Knut

You are welcome. It is what I do when my 77 year old body says I have to take a break from trying to restore my own land. It would be a shame to wast all that experience homesteading.

Welcome to permies!  Sounds like a lovely place to start.  What is the coastline like and do you have access to it?  Maybe lots of nutrients there like seaweed. Do you have lots of sunny spots to use to start your garden?  Are there other trees that you can use as a source for leaves?  Usually the ground under trees are full of decayed leaves which can be used for growing perennial plants but will also help with hugels.

Hi Knut. Please tell more on that place. It sounds like an island in a northern region. How's the climate? What more plans do you have there?

Your question is interesting to me, because I experiment with Hugelkultur too, not on bedrock, but on pavement. Maybe that's about the same Hugelkultur with pine will be acidic ... so the berries will be fine there. Think of Paul's favourite: huckleberry! And blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, etc.

I have the same acidic soil on bedrock situation.  We have been slowly building hugel beds, like you were saying.  I have added leaves to my beds since we have plenty.  I don't know you heat your home, but we produce plenty of wood ash.  We throw that in the acidic soil to try to neutralize it.  I'll be using them for the first time this year, so we'll see.

Use the sea! Collect some materials from the wrack zone and below it, but not too much, as the dried up sea vegetation keeps the erosion at bay, and provides habitat for a lot of small insects and snakes. People used to grow potatoes in the islets/skerries/skjærs of Finland, and used nothing but bladder wrack, Fucus vesiculosus collected from the shoreline. Combined with manure from domestic animals, the potatoes thrived. I think the sea, if it is close by, would provide you materials for compost also, both the green and the brown parts.
-Janne

I agree!  In the process of planning a trek to the shore.  About a 2 hour drive for me.

Regional climate:
Temps: normal daily average:
>0C from mid march to mid december
>10C from mid may to mid october

Low on rain/clouds (blue skies)

Quite windy.

Local climate:
Flat landscape, can see the sun rising and setting in the horizon. Typical coastal climate with moderating mass of water.

I have used some shell sand for neutralizing acidic soil (after cleaning off the salt). Some seaweed, but not large quantities. The island is grazed by sheep, thus it is dominated by (the few)
plants that sheep do not touch. I have to fence in anything tasty.

I have tested the soil and found it highly acidic (have blended in fireplace soot).

My main "worry" is that pine trees have some kind of "anti-rot" that makes for bad/slow composting?

Given that I can carry limited amounts of external additives, would hen dropping compost be a reasonable alternative for my acidic, low neutrient, low micro life soil?

I have planted a couple of grapes, blackberry, strawberry. Planning to add (hardy) apricot, fig and possibly mulberry this year. Been moving a good deal of rocks and soil the last couple of years. Have a disused rain capture tank that I want to use for watering in the dry summer months. Pondering how to make it water a couple of times a week rather than continously(have seen some nice solar panel driven pumps).

Finally, this is one of the few areas where I have not seen the hated invasive Iberian Slug. Would hate being the one who introduce it locally, or making a slug haven from which the buggers can make further invasions.

-k

Hi Knut,

I don't know if pines have an anti rot factor, or just a "slow" rot rate, either way, that may be to your advantage, because when it does rain, you will not lose "everything".  I'm thinking it would help provide a slow and consistent source of "nutrients".  And a fast rot might overheat the pile and kill all the roots in the mound.

Have you held back from adding seaweed, or is the supply limited?  I think you could safely use huge amounts.  As for the salt rinsed out of the shell sand and potentially in the kelp, there are those who use seasalt as a soil additive to boost the mineral content of the soil.  Here is one link to provide more info on that.

http://designerecosystems.com/2014/08/24/sea-water-and-sea-salt-as-organic-fertilizer-that-makes-healthy-plants-grow-fast/

it is an interesting project.  The place sounds beautiful.  I might want to come visit.    

I think the wind might be important to consider.  How strong is it and how constant? Can you shelter from the wind in any way?  both for your self and for your plants?

Here is what I mean
http://bio1151b.nicerweb.net/Locked/media/ch50/50_09WindEffectsTrees.jpg

whether or not the wind was blowing when the photo was taken, you can see how the force of the wind affected the growth of the plant...

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Hi Knut,

I don't know if pines have an anti rot factor, or just a "slow" rot rate, either way, that may be to your advantage, because when it does rain, you will not lose "everything".  I'm thinking it would help provide a slow and consistent source of "nutrients".  And a fast rot might overheat the pile and kill all the roots in the mound.

If so - perfect.

Have you held back from adding seaweed, or is the supply limited?  I think you could safely use huge amounts.

limited supply.

it is an interesting project.  The place sounds beautiful.  I might want to come visit.    

Sure

I think the wind might be important to consider.  How strong is it and how constant? Can you shelter from the wind in any way?  both for your self and for your plants?

Measurements at a lighthouse in the sea nearby is 5-6 m/s on average. Locally, trees and ground give some shelter. I have built a rocky "fence" for breaking up the wind and storing some heat. Will provide pictures of that later.

-k

If you can get a small plot of soil to start on and plant small grains to feed the chickens that is a great way to build soil. They love the barnical shell for grit and make stronger egg shells plus the shell gets ground fine in their crop and become instantly available to the soil organisms.  I am adding the video I did of my procedure.

We just finished some new hugels....on bedrock....I'll let you know in a year or so how they go

I wonder how well mulberry would do in this setting.

I hardly know of anyone planting mulberry in my area, but I am reading that they tend to be wind tolerant (some species being used for wind break), tolerating salt spray, and tolerant for different soil types.

M. Nigra being preferred for consumption, while Illinois everbearing (hybrid) preferred for robustness.

-k

Any plant material will eventually compost but pine needles and bark are resinous and slow to decompose.
I have limited experience but perhaps use the pine material to build an outer ring around one of your rain hollows, and cover the bottom of the hollow to retain water, then put better material in the centre of the ring?
Gradually build up piney borders around plantable beds?

knut inge wrote:I wonder how well mulberry would do in this setting.

I hardly know of anyone planting mulberry in my area, but I am reading that they tend to be wind tolerant (some species being used for wind break), tolerating salt spray, and tolerant for different soil types.

M. Nigra being preferred for consumption, while Illinois everbearing (hybrid) preferred for robustness.

-k

if you can get sea buckthorn (seaberry) and goumi berry plants, they're nitrogen fixers, the berries are very nutritious and they're drought / salt tolerant. they laugh at wind a harsh conditions. they grow in a very wide soil ph also. the thorns on the seaberry would deter some grazing but goats would probably still try it as they'll eat anything. bet they would grow very well on your hugels  once established. honeyberries and blueberries like acidic soil also. could use the goumi and seaberry on the windy side as a windbreak for less wind tolerant species. good luck!

just want to say I have tried seabuckthorn three times at my place and they have all died.  They are not as easy as one might think

i planted 6 of them 2 years ago. 3 on a sparsely soiled site with bedrock 12in. down and the rest on my poor , rocky clay soil in my yard. both are doing well with nothing but a 4in. thick hardwood mulch around them with no additional watering .i did water some at the beginning but only for a few months and all survived. they're about 5ft. tall now. maybe it was too hot for them in your area? I'm in zone 3b.

I know this is an older post but I never came across anyone who had built a hugel on bedrock back in 2011 when I started my garden that way.  10 years later (wow time flies) and I am starting to plan another hugel on bedrock garden but in a big crevice.  I would love to hear from others’ experiences as I start planning.  

Ours were a total failure. But not due to bedrock....3 years of drought and we used a class A hardwood.....when we pulled the beds apart the timber looked as it did the day we put it in. We're going to dismantle our really large bed this winter and I expect to see the same results. In a brittle climate there are better techniques I feel. I also reckon they're easier to manage in a climate that gets heavy snow and allows a "reset" each year. Without this the perennial "weeds" just take over.

For us, we're better off having excess timber mulched and compost generated in our pastured poultry enterprise.

Ashley, you never said how your beds are doing for you, did you build with pine. I started one last year, has not done well but have had zero rain and poor snow fall last winter.