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Emoticons--Why so few and why so many repetitions?

 
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This is, like, the least of anyone's priorities, but I've wondered about this for years. Why are there so many repetitions on the emoticons? And when I click What do these icons mean?, I get taken to the Java Ranch site, where there many more, and different little emoticons/graemlins. Is there an easy way to get some of their awesome emoticons over here? And, if not, maybe the link should go somewhere else, so it doesn't say, "The following graemlins are currently supported" when they don't appear to be supported here on permies...
 
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I think we should take them all out.  
 
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I find emoji very confusing.  I'm glad there are so few.  
 
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I could skip the emoticons. I may use a smiley once in a while but I can forget them.
 
Nicole Alderman
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As someone who uses facial expressions (and hand gestures) a lot, I find the emoticons a way to express emotions or tone of voice that I can't always convey with words. Some with aspergers/autism use little or no gestures or facial expressions, while others aspies use exaggerated ones--I fit in the latter category. And, sometimes it's just fun to post the silly emoticons.

But, yes, sometimes they are confusing, and sometimes people seem to use them passive aggressively. And, I do find them mildly annoying when people post three or more emoticons in a row as a way of replying versus using words. The multiple-emoticons-in-a-row is something I see a lot of on facebook. But, maybe that way the only way they could think of to express something when they couldn't quite find the words?

Even with all their downsides, I'd be really sad if they vanished entirely.
 
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I greatly dislike emoticons.  Personally, I'd rather read ": wink :" than see a winking emoji.  It accomplishes the same thing, while appearing (to me) much less, I don't know, childish.  (I'm not calling emoji users childish, just stating that I think the emojis themselves look childish.)  Seems like a failure in communication if we can't get ideas across with words rather than smiley faces.  On forums that tend toward extreme defensiveness and that operate with a general lack of respect toward others, I can see how emojis might disarm a situation, or convey nuance to avoid misunderstandings.  But it seems things operate differently here, and as such those tools are needed less, if at all.

On a practical note, I have been on forums where it seems entire conversations are had with about 30% text and 70% emojis.  It makes my head hurt.  And I think it renders the threads nearly useless.  At the very least, replying to a post or a thread with nothing but emojis (or little more than) should be disallowed.  There is nothing constructive in someone posting nothing but a smiley face or some such nonsense just to let people know he or she likes something.  But then, I'm a grump.

On another (more?) practical note, I find it mildly (or incredibly, depending on mood) irritating when someone is making a list using numbers and an end parenthesis, and when they get to number eight the software automatically changes it to that stupid guy with sunglasses.  If your list goes beyond seven points, use periods or dashes after the numerals, for all our sakes!

 
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when they get to number eight the software automatically changes it to that stupid guy with sunglasses.



Anyone who likes can check the box below the text when posting that says 'disable smilies in this message'.  I guess it needs to be done for each post.  I think I remember that it carries over into anyone elses post who might 'quote' that post also and not the whole thread.

Maybe permanent disabling for individual users could be a pie perk?

I don't mind them...kind of like the animated ones...I don't notice anyone here using only that, usually just for emphasis or reassurance.  

I have certain words that bug me like 'crafter' and 'hobby' and probably some others <grin> but the emojis seem pretty harmless to me.
 
Nicole Alderman
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You should be able to disable smilies/emoticons by going to "My Profile," clicking "Preferences" and then unclicking "Allow Smilies." At least, I'm assuming that's what that setting means...

Edit: Well, I unclicked "Allow Smilies," and I can still see them in this thread   . Hmmmmmm, now I'm wondering what that setting does!

Edit #2: Looks like unlclicking "Allow Smilies" in profile preferences also doesn't disable them when I post, as the confused face still went through when I had "Allow Smilies" unclicked.
Remove-Permies-Smilies-Emoticons.jpg
[Thumbnail for Remove-Permies-Smilies-Emoticons.jpg]
Where the button is to disable smilies
 
Judith Browning
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You should be able to disable smilies/emoticons by going to "My Profile," clicking "Preferences" and then unclicking "Allow Smilies."



and there it's been all the time...thanks Nicole  I remember when I first was here at permies and saw 'disable smilies' when typing a reply, I read it 'disable similes' and thought how cool is that, but why?
 
Judith Browning
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Looks like unlclicking "Allow Smilies" in profile preferences also doesn't disable them when I post, as the confused face still went through when I had "Allow Smilies" unclicked.



Funny it says 'allow smiles' not 'allow smilies'  ...wonder what it means? I never knew what some of those others meant either...like 'BB codes' (I allow) and 'HTML' (I don't allow) and I don't have a clue why, that is how it was already checked in my profile.  And I 'allow smiles' apparently  
 
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Nicole Alderman wrote:Why are there so many repetitions on the emoticons?



There looks to be about 20+ redundant ones and some that are broken or mislabeled.

Wes Hunter wrote:There is nothing constructive in someone posting nothing but a smiley face or some such nonsense just to let people know he or she likes something.



The whole "reaction" concept is a bad one, where people see a post and just reply with emojis, that's how people start to lose communication skills after awhile. Example of Reactions
Using the topic as pseudo-evidence though, I don't think the audience at permies would ever start posting with mass-emoji replies even if more were available, so not much of a concern there as I see it.

---

I am annoyed at how emoticons are overused in general these days aswell, and animated/flashing ones are really annoying, but I don't see that as a reason to not have emoticons around at all.

We seem to have a standard set on permies right now: mad, sad, happy, wink, tongue-out, confused, grin, tears, embarrassed etc. Nicole, which specific emoticons do you feel we are missing here?

Something I've seen on other forums is that they trade quantity for quality. Grabbing inspiration from a Paul quote about making the world a better place, perhaps a few emoticons could be added in the future which revolve around that concept. Something as simple as a peace sign, heart, world, a tree(?) etc, or even a few permaculture based-ones. That would be a compromise in that those shouldn't be as confusing to understand, while at the same time giving some users additional visual-tools to aid them in expressing themselves fully.
 
r ranson
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Jarret Hynd wrote:

The whole "reaction" concept is a bad one, where people see a post and just reply with emojis, that's how people start to lose communication skills after awhile. Example of Reactions
Using the topic as pseudo-evidence though, I don't think the audience at permies would ever start posting with mass-emoji replies even if more were available, so not much of a concern there as I see it.



Have you noticed how few of these chaffy posts we have on permies?  The staff work hard to discourage this kind of posting - instead, we encourage useful content.

 
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I have a lot of trouble with emoji.  It feels like reading pictures and reading words take very different parts of my brain - parts that cannot work together.  When I read a thread, I read the words first, then I come back the next day and read the pictures.  

Reading text, I skip past emoji.  I do my best to tune it out because if I start looking at them, then I loose the meaning of the sentence trying to figure out what facial expression the emoji has.  When an emoji is used to set the 'tone' of a post, it is lost on me.

happy face
extra happy face
sad face
confused
are pretty obvious.  Not sure what the rest of them mean.

This might be a function of my dyslexia.  Then again, about 20% of English native speakers, have a language disability (not including people who develop language challenges later in life).  Then there are people who learned English as a second language.  Facial expressions mean different things in different parts of the world.   might be completely different to other people.  To me, it means extra happy.  In some cultures showing one's teeth is considered aggression so this might mean 'i'm challenging you'.  

With words, we can look up translations and definitions.  They aren't perfect, but they are easier for me to understand.  
 
Jarret Hynd
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r ranson wrote:

Jarret Hynd wrote:

The whole "reaction" concept is a bad one, where people see a post and just reply with emojis, that's how people start to lose communication skills after awhile. Example of Reactions
Using the topic as pseudo-evidence though, I don't think the audience at permies would ever start posting with mass-emoji replies even if more were available, so not much of a concern there as I see it.



Have you noticed how few of these chaffy posts we have on permies?  The staff work hard to discourage this kind of posting - instead, we encourage useful content.



I do know from other forum experiences that moderation is a real blessing when done right and most of the work is unseen&thankless, so genuinely, thanks for the work that is put into maintaining the integrity of this site. I've been on forums where spambots' posts take days to remove or there is some "neutral" stance by moderators where anyone can say anything they want which causes more problems than it's worth. It's a joy to be able to log onto permies and not have to mentally filter all that useless stuff. Going slightly off-topic, but a nice reminder for users who don't tend to think about that aspect of managing a site.
 
Judith Browning
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I have a lot of trouble with emoji.  It feels like reading pictures and reading words take very different parts of my brain - parts that cannot work together.  When I read a thread, I read the words first, then I come back the next day and read the pictures.

Reading text, I skip past emoji.  I do my best to tune it out because if I start looking at them, then I loose the meaning of the sentence trying to figure out what facial expression the emoji has.  When an emoji is used to set the 'tone' of a post, it is lost on me.



Great to have a different perspective....I didn't realize that something I see as completely innocuous could cause that much difficulty so that's good to know.  I will certainly think before 'emoting' from now on...although I'll admit, I had an impulse to add a smiling image after that sentence.  

I need to break my habit of run on sentences also I think... <grin>

 
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Oh no, if they get rid of them I won't be able to use the devil face whenever I make a joke that has a victim.😲
 
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The implication (on another thread) for not using smilies/emojies/emoticons is that they slow down the internet.  I have not found anything (via extensive google searches) to support this.  

I really don't get what the resistance towards these fun and expressive faces are - if they don't appeal then just ignore them, surely!!  🤔

Their value is that they can be useful for better deciphering what someone means since the printed word can so easily be misunderstood.  

This is the first forum I have been on that doesn't feature them in post options. 🤐  
Oh well, at least they are allowed!  👍
 
paul wheaton
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If it were a PIE feature, would you buy PIE?
 
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Amy Francis wrote:Their value is that they can be useful for better deciphering what someone means since the printed word can so easily be misunderstood.  



If the printed word can be so easily misunderstood, the emoji media can be even easier to misunderstand.  

The OKAY hand signal can mean anything from "that's okay". to help, I need immediate HELP!!!, to extreme hate speach

There is no universal meaning to emoji - it's highly regional.  

And as for putting tone into words with emoji try this:

"something really nasty about your personal body smell - just kidding"

just kidding doesn't make what was said any nicer.  Instead, it's better to focus on saying things in a nice way instead of relying on ambiguous emoji to add 'tone' to the words.  
 
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paul wheaton wrote:If it were a PIE feature, would you buy PIE?



This sounds like a great idea!

 
paul wheaton
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r ranson wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:If it were a PIE feature, would you buy PIE?



This sounds like a great idea!



It's only a great idea if people buy the PIE.   Otherwise, we do the development, get zero return and then other projects have been put on hold.
 
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paul wheaton wrote:If it were a PIE feature, would you buy PIE?


I dislike the idea of profiting from something that should be available as standard i.e. it is on every other forum I have seen.

Indeed this forum is designed to have smilies since there is a 'disable smilies' facility....er....but the smilies have been erased!  😕
 
r ranson
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Permies runs in the red and Paul pays for it out of pocket.  

I like the idea of permies becoming sustainable and self-funding.  If that means PIE, then I'm good with PIE.

The thing I like most about PIE, is that people can also earn PIE by writing good quality posts and people with money who love permies and can afford to buy PIE can encourage good quality posts by buying extra PIE to give away.  
 
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r ranson wrote:Permies runs in the red and Paul pays for it out of pocket.  

I like the idea of permies becoming sustainable and self-funding.  If that means PIE, then I'm good with PIE.

The thing I like most about PIE, is that people can also earn PIE by writing good quality posts and people with money who love permies and can afford to buy PIE can encourage good quality posts by buying extra PIE to give away.  


Oh I didn't know this forum is being run at a loss.  Forgive me.  I would be happy to make a donation but saw no donate button - not even via the search facility.

I still stand by my view though i.e. that emoticons should be available as standard and not charged.
 
Nicole Alderman
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r ranson wrote:Permies runs in the red and Paul pays for it out of pocket.  

I like the idea of permies becoming sustainable and self-funding.  If that means PIE, then I'm good with PIE.

The thing I like most about PIE, is that people can also earn PIE by writing good quality posts and people with money who love permies and can afford to buy PIE can encourage good quality posts by buying extra PIE to give away.  



I'm liking this idea, too. While it'd be lovely to have emojis standard, it's currently not...and the development would take hours, I'm sure. Those hours could be spent on more freebies for the dailyish, making a responsive website that looks good on mobile and desktop, fixing known bugs in the forum software, and much more. There is an amazing amount of work that goes into keeping this forum going, and amazing amount that we'd love/need to have developed.

It's also not too hard to earn enough apples to have a non-ending amount of pie. From the beginning of pie until now, I've never gone without--and I've given a ton away and I wasn't even a moderator for most of that time!

I'm really excited to see emoticons or smilies or something be easily accessible. And, maybe having the PIE barrier might help prevent some of the issues Raven is worried about. If someone has been around long enough to earn pie, they're probably someone who knows how to be nice and people would not use emojis in a hurtful way. And, it would help people who might wonder "are they using that emoji in a nice way?" to go "OH! They have 20 apples and some pie. They've been around here a long time and been really helpful. I'm going to assume that they meant that nicely."  While I'd like to think that everyone on permies is nice...having been a moderator I know that that's not always true. We've had some cruel stuff, sadly. And, we've had stuff that was easily misunderstood as mean. And it's really hard for us (volunteer) moderators to tell the difference. It's amazing how much stuff we do behind the scenes, and it still doesn't seem like enough!

Oh I didn't know this forum is being run at a loss.  Forgive me.  I would be happy to make a donation but saw no donate button - not even via the search facility.



I think the best/easiest way to donate is to buy pie. Or buy something else from the digital market. That way, you get cool stuff to keep or giveaway, and permies flourishes. I dug around and found the thread about donating. It's right here. There's lots of options to fund and improve permies for everyone!
 
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Thanks for the donation link Nicole - done.

Perhaps the donation link could/should be made into a button so members can easily donate?
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